WEBVTT 00:00:09.041 --> 00:00:12.781 Hello, and welcome to The Edition. I'm your host, Charlotte Henry. 00:00:13.021 --> 00:00:16.141 I'm really excited this week to get to talk to my guest. It's someone whose 00:00:16.141 --> 00:00:19.201 work I've enjoyed and admired for a long time. 00:00:19.501 --> 00:00:24.961 It's Joey Durser, who's now the senior data reporter at The Times and The Sunday Times. 00:00:25.061 --> 00:00:28.421 You've done a bunch of interesting jobs and wrote a very interesting book. 00:00:28.661 --> 00:00:32.021 So we'll get to all of that as well in a bit. But first of all, 00:00:32.081 --> 00:00:33.421 how are you, Joey? It's great to see you. 00:00:34.181 --> 00:00:37.081 I'm very well. Thank you very much for having me. No, I'm thrilled. 00:00:37.341 --> 00:00:41.021 So I guess we should do a bit of Joey Durso 101. 00:00:41.461 --> 00:00:45.561 Take us through, because you've been at the BBC, you had a fascinating gig at 00:00:45.561 --> 00:00:50.981 The Athletic, and now you're back in sort of imprinting The Times and The Sunday Times. 00:00:51.281 --> 00:00:55.161 So just explain a little bit about yourself for readers who haven't been lucky 00:00:55.161 --> 00:00:58.801 enough to come across your work yet. Yeah, well, so I guess I started all this 00:00:58.801 --> 00:01:01.661 about a decade ago. My first job was at Reuters, did that for a year. 00:01:01.981 --> 00:01:05.701 Then I joined the BBC in the politics department just after Brexit. 00:01:06.871 --> 00:01:10.271 A nice quiet time to join a politics team. 00:01:10.811 --> 00:01:14.231 Yeah, it was great. Well, I sort of thought I'd missed all the drama because 00:01:14.231 --> 00:01:15.551 I wasn't there for the referendum. 00:01:15.771 --> 00:01:19.231 I joined in September 2016. How wrong you were. 00:01:19.951 --> 00:01:22.911 Yeah, two general elections, American election, all sorts of things. 00:01:23.031 --> 00:01:25.671 Yeah, it was fun. And then I stepped away from that. I mean, 00:01:25.711 --> 00:01:27.671 I actually joined BuzzFeed, which was a complete disaster. 00:01:28.151 --> 00:01:33.191 Yes. Imploded about two months after me joining. Yes, I remember you talking about joining them. 00:01:33.771 --> 00:01:37.171 Yeah, it was great. But I mean, COVID and yeah, that didn't work. 00:01:37.331 --> 00:01:40.551 But I had a sort of summer of 2020 floundering about not knowing what I was 00:01:40.551 --> 00:01:43.731 doing. And then The Athletic came along. Didn't we all that summer? 00:01:44.351 --> 00:01:48.891 Yeah. Well, yeah, it was pretty stressful, to be honest. But then The Athletic, 00:01:49.131 --> 00:01:52.391 yeah, it was great. Did that for three, three and a half years. 00:01:52.591 --> 00:01:56.231 Owned by the New York Times. Did some investigations into the murky world of 00:01:56.231 --> 00:01:58.731 football, which inspired this book that I've just released. 00:01:58.911 --> 00:02:02.531 And then I joined The Times just about 18 months ago now. 00:02:03.011 --> 00:02:07.291 Two-year-old journalist. So tell me a bit about, I was really interested in 00:02:07.291 --> 00:02:12.451 your work at The Athletic because it was sports reporting, but sort of not. 00:02:12.451 --> 00:02:17.751 It looked at the world behind sport, which I found really interesting. 00:02:18.531 --> 00:02:21.731 Tell me how you got into that and how you looked at that kind of world. 00:02:22.706 --> 00:02:26.406 Yeah, so I was basically hired as the investigations reporter, 00:02:26.446 --> 00:02:29.946 which was a pretty kind of open-ended job. 00:02:30.246 --> 00:02:35.166 It was, you know, I could kind of do what I wanted, which is on the one hand, really exciting. 00:02:35.406 --> 00:02:37.946 And journalists, you know, it's great to have the freedom, but it's a bit terrifying 00:02:37.946 --> 00:02:40.506 because there isn't a sort of beat. There isn't a regular press conference to 00:02:40.506 --> 00:02:41.986 attend or match to write about. 00:02:42.766 --> 00:02:47.086 But one thing I eventually started doing a lot on were shirt sponsors and some 00:02:47.086 --> 00:02:51.626 of these incredibly shady companies advertising to Chinese gamblers, 00:02:51.626 --> 00:02:55.126 which will be all over the Premier League shirts, Premier League billboards, 00:02:55.306 --> 00:02:58.406 really shady companies based in Southeast Asia, Vietnam, 00:02:58.586 --> 00:03:01.926 the Philippines which often we have pretty clear links to organised crime and 00:03:01.926 --> 00:03:04.126 I sort of dug this up by you know spending a lot of time on the phone, 00:03:04.226 --> 00:03:07.526 spending a lot of time looking at sort of cryptocurrency and murky online trails 00:03:07.526 --> 00:03:11.326 in the pandemic and wrote some big stories and also a lot on cryptocurrency 00:03:11.326 --> 00:03:16.446 itself which is another source of extremely shady cash at the top of English and global football. 00:03:17.854 --> 00:03:21.514 Yeah, I mean, as like you, I'm a big football fan and we used to, 00:03:21.694 --> 00:03:25.794 you know, like you, I'm a big football fan and we'd look at these shirt sponsors 00:03:25.794 --> 00:03:27.454 and be like, who on earth is that? 00:03:28.534 --> 00:03:32.374 Yeah, it's a common feeling for football fans. Never heard of this brand. 00:03:32.534 --> 00:03:36.434 And then you were sort of unpacking who they were. And how did that lead into your book? 00:03:37.774 --> 00:03:40.874 Yeah, so a couple of chapters in the book are about that sort of work that I've done. 00:03:40.994 --> 00:03:43.334 I mean, more than a shirt, how football shirts explain global politics, 00:03:43.414 --> 00:03:46.834 money and power is the shtick. I mean, and part of it is through those kind 00:03:46.834 --> 00:03:48.314 of murky paper trails, but part 00:03:48.314 --> 00:03:50.774 of it may be stories that are a bit more obvious, a bit more on your face. 00:03:50.854 --> 00:03:53.854 And if you think about Manchester City being sponsored by Etihad, 00:03:54.114 --> 00:03:57.254 which is the airline of Abu Dhabi, you know, Arsenal, Real Madrid and all sorts 00:03:57.254 --> 00:04:01.954 of other teams with Fly Emirates, the airline of Dubai and Newcastle United 00:04:01.954 --> 00:04:03.754 playing in the green of the Saudi Arabian flag. 00:04:03.934 --> 00:04:08.954 So wherever you look now, I think this link between politics and football is really intertwined. 00:04:09.034 --> 00:04:11.914 And it's quite hard to be a fan of one and not the other these days. 00:04:11.914 --> 00:04:14.154 I mean, even if you're just a football fan, you know, who likes going to the 00:04:14.154 --> 00:04:17.214 game, you know, I put myself in that category. But you can't completely bury 00:04:17.214 --> 00:04:19.834 your head in the sand from the things when Qatar is hosting the World Cup, 00:04:19.934 --> 00:04:22.814 when Saudi Arabia is hosting the World Cup, when Donald Trump is going to be 00:04:22.814 --> 00:04:25.854 all over the next World Cup next year. And at the same time... He can't wait. 00:04:26.534 --> 00:04:29.694 He loves it. He's got the Club World Cup trophy in his room. 00:04:30.114 --> 00:04:31.574 Infantino's his new best friend. 00:04:32.694 --> 00:04:36.854 They've invented a... FIFA have invented a peace prize for Donald Trump, haven't they? 00:04:37.454 --> 00:04:40.794 Yeah, well, yeah. No, I think they've not awarded it yet. It's a peace prize. 00:04:40.794 --> 00:04:43.054 Sorry, are we meant to pretend to be surprised? Sorry. 00:04:43.254 --> 00:04:48.874 I think it's all a very competitive prize with a very transparent application process, I'm sure. 00:04:49.134 --> 00:04:52.494 What interests me and why I've always enjoyed your work, and your answers just 00:04:52.494 --> 00:04:56.994 kind of outlined it, is there is space for journalism now, isn't there? 00:04:57.214 --> 00:05:01.094 Where we look at the layer under the layer, whether it's politics, 00:05:01.454 --> 00:05:05.834 whether it's as you've done in sport, as you're doing now, the data underlining 00:05:05.834 --> 00:05:07.934 stories at the Times and Sunday Times. 00:05:08.554 --> 00:05:12.614 We can have a sort of different way of looking at things that is quite important 00:05:12.614 --> 00:05:13.954 for journalists to do, I think. 00:05:15.343 --> 00:05:18.443 Yeah, you're right. And I think football fans, you know, there's always been 00:05:18.443 --> 00:05:21.543 links between football and politics, but I think it's just so much more in your face now. 00:05:21.883 --> 00:05:24.663 And also the other way around. I mean, I've had conversations with friends who 00:05:24.663 --> 00:05:27.903 are really interested in politics, who aren't particularly football fans. 00:05:28.063 --> 00:05:31.323 But again, that's kind of so in your face now that when Trump, 00:05:31.423 --> 00:05:33.963 the World Cup is such a big part of his identity, when you've got the entire 00:05:33.963 --> 00:05:36.023 politics of the Middle East are so bound up in football, 00:05:36.303 --> 00:05:39.203 even for people who aren't football fans, I think there's a sort of curiosity 00:05:39.203 --> 00:05:43.163 there that people wish to understand more that might not have been there even 10 years ago. 00:05:43.383 --> 00:05:47.523 Why is Lionel Messi picking up a World Cup in a Qatari robe? 00:05:48.863 --> 00:05:53.263 Why is Donald Trump, well, the famous picture of Donald Trump and Cole Palmer, 00:05:53.463 --> 00:05:56.323 which we could do a whole show because it's so incredible, but we won't. 00:05:56.483 --> 00:05:59.083 So tell me more about your work at The Times and Sunday Times. 00:06:00.203 --> 00:06:03.923 Sure, yeah. So I'm a senior data journalist. I do data. 00:06:04.063 --> 00:06:06.343 I mean, it's a very broad job. It can mean anything that involves numbers. 00:06:06.463 --> 00:06:08.903 That can be NHS waiting lists. 00:06:09.003 --> 00:06:11.783 That can be small boat arrivals. it can be pretty much 00:06:11.783 --> 00:06:14.803 anything and using data skills using 00:06:14.803 --> 00:06:17.563 sort of coding or just basic you know excel sheets and 00:06:17.563 --> 00:06:20.903 google sheets to try and uncover stories um 00:06:20.903 --> 00:06:23.783 what i've been doing recently in the last few weeks a lot of interesting stuff on 00:06:23.783 --> 00:06:26.443 on vaccines really enjoyed doing the two 00:06:26.443 --> 00:06:29.183 big elections that was you know i wanted to sort of get my ducks in 00:06:29.183 --> 00:06:32.403 a row to be back out of sport and into general journalism 00:06:32.403 --> 00:06:35.343 and politics for those two big elections in 2024 i loved all that looking 00:06:35.343 --> 00:06:38.623 at sort of precinct level data or constituency data 00:06:38.623 --> 00:06:42.743 anyone who follows you on twitter i don't think this is disingenuous to say 00:06:42.743 --> 00:06:47.123 that you are a politics nerd joey i'll happily take that yeah although i don't 00:06:47.123 --> 00:06:50.943 really i don't really use twitter anymore i feel like it's no i'm going back 00:06:50.943 --> 00:06:54.323 in the day from when i first encountered you i don't think the nerd has changed 00:06:54.323 --> 00:06:57.143 if you don't mind me saying i know still full full throttle. 00:06:58.797 --> 00:07:02.977 That is important because often we hear, actually, how many conversations have 00:07:02.977 --> 00:07:06.817 you and I had with journalists who go, I don't do numbers. 00:07:07.097 --> 00:07:12.797 I can't do numbers. I've had this conversation with a guest on the show before, James Ball as well. 00:07:13.037 --> 00:07:16.897 And it drives, there's a growing number of journalists who just go, 00:07:17.237 --> 00:07:21.457 don't do, that want to take in the numbers and the data. 00:07:21.637 --> 00:07:27.717 Whereas previously it was a sort of badge of honour that we as journalists didn't do numbers. 00:07:29.237 --> 00:07:32.337 Yeah. And I agree that's not a very helpful way of looking at things. 00:07:32.497 --> 00:07:35.077 I mean, people wouldn't say, oh, I can't do reading. 00:07:35.377 --> 00:07:38.117 That would be a bit embarrassing. Certainly in a newsroom. 00:07:39.357 --> 00:07:42.917 Yeah. Well, I think it's also like, it shouldn't be seen as a kind of binary, 00:07:43.197 --> 00:07:49.197 like either you're completely innumerate or you're a sort of absolute Einstein. 00:07:49.677 --> 00:07:52.037 There's a sort of sliding scale and everyone can do a bit of numbers. 00:07:53.477 --> 00:07:56.337 Some people more than others but um you know 00:07:56.337 --> 00:07:59.277 stuff like just knowing how to do summing things up on a google sheets 00:07:59.277 --> 00:08:01.997 or you know a pivot table which sounds quite geeky but 00:08:01.997 --> 00:08:05.577 it's really pretty straightforward and you can get an incredible amount of um you 00:08:05.577 --> 00:08:09.777 know data journalism out of that you don't necessarily need to to code and i'm 00:08:09.777 --> 00:08:13.117 not i wouldn't see myself as a particularly proficient coder in terms of writing 00:08:13.117 --> 00:08:17.897 code but ai and chat gpt is really lowering the barrier to entry and all that 00:08:17.897 --> 00:08:21.697 and um you know there's all sorts of concerns about that it's obviously better 00:08:21.697 --> 00:08:23.377 to be able to do it all yourself if you can. 00:08:23.517 --> 00:08:26.457 But if you can't, it's pretty powerful. It's pretty exciting. 00:08:26.477 --> 00:08:29.137 I think you can just sort of get it to write stuff for you. 00:08:29.197 --> 00:08:31.177 And if there's an error message, you can get it to fix it for you. 00:08:31.277 --> 00:08:33.457 And I'm not saying that's a replacement for knowing how to do it all yourself. 00:08:33.577 --> 00:08:37.157 But I think it really does lower the barrier to entry to doing this kind of work. 00:08:37.597 --> 00:08:43.077 Yeah, you've slightly preempted my next question, which is how is AI feeding into all this work? 00:08:43.197 --> 00:08:49.077 And actually, are we going to get better data driven journalism because of the growth of AI? 00:08:50.037 --> 00:08:54.097 Yeah, so I think it can do. I think it can, there are downsides to it. It can make people lazy. 00:08:54.377 --> 00:08:59.037 I think journalists don't need an excuse to be lazy, let's be honest. Well, exactly. 00:08:59.297 --> 00:09:03.157 But like, you know, the sort of errors creeping into work, which is, 00:09:03.357 --> 00:09:05.737 you know, the worst thing you can do is make a massive mistake in a story. 00:09:05.917 --> 00:09:10.957 And I think AI makes that way more likely, basically, because it just puts out rubbish. 00:09:11.197 --> 00:09:15.717 But I think where AI is really useful is for the sort of boring data crunching, 00:09:15.837 --> 00:09:18.777 which even two years ago, I spent a lot of my time like cleaning numbers and 00:09:18.777 --> 00:09:23.117 it's incredibly tedious stuff and i can just just you know the the positive 00:09:23.117 --> 00:09:26.337 cases you spend less time doing that and more time like ringing people up and 00:09:26.337 --> 00:09:29.077 getting out and about and doing the stuff that journalists kind of should be 00:09:29.077 --> 00:09:34.357 doing yeah i i entirely agree with on that and i've written about that before oh. 00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:38.440 I mean, there's a downside to it that you might not have the entry level jobs, 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:41.940 which is a different issue. Yeah, well, I think that's a big issue. It's a huge issue. 00:09:42.340 --> 00:09:48.900 But in terms of journalists of your seniority being able to focus on the big 00:09:48.900 --> 00:09:54.340 things, not fiddling around, cleaning up a horrible CSV spreadsheet that you've downloaded. 00:09:55.160 --> 00:10:02.060 That's obviously a huge benefit today to the AI era that we're in and is obviously continuing and coming. 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.960 Yeah it certainly saves a lot of time um 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.680 you know my worry about it yeah is for 00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:11.700 those kind of early career journalists or students who 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:15.240 are just kind of using it to almost short circuit like the human brain which 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:20.320 i find pretty terrifying like might not have the jobs to go into where you know 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:25.700 someone in a team like yours needs someone to you know needs a student journalist 00:10:25.700 --> 00:10:29.220 to clean up the numbers and that's a great way into a newsroom. 00:10:29.940 --> 00:10:33.620 Yeah, I mean, I think I would say that we have really good grad trainees and 00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:36.900 I think that the currency, the thing that will impress people always is ideas 00:10:36.900 --> 00:10:39.500 and original ideas and original ways of doing things. 00:10:39.660 --> 00:10:43.580 And at this point, AI can't do that. So I think that is always, 00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:46.940 the currency of being a junior journalist is having good ideas. 00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:50.360 And if you've got good ideas, your people will notice you. 00:10:51.140 --> 00:10:54.820 So it's not, I mean, the junior jobs here aren't sort of data monkeys, 00:10:54.820 --> 00:10:59.720 but I can see how in certain industries it might really upturn things pretty quickly. 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.520 Yeah, I entirely agree with that as well. 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:08.880 I'm interested, though, how you think more broadly, we're using data and numbers 00:11:08.880 --> 00:11:12.960 in journalism, because there has always been a bit of a thing that, 00:11:13.160 --> 00:11:17.480 you know, in journalism, we have the source quote and the sort of someone close 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.800 to this person said that, and often it's not backed up with numbers. 00:11:21.060 --> 00:11:24.500 Again, it depends on the beat, it depends on what you're writing about. 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:31.920 But I think people now do expect a little bit more and do expect some numbers 00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:38.320 and some hard data to back up what they're being told in whatever kind of publication. 00:11:39.821 --> 00:11:43.381 Yeah, I think people want it and expect it and appreciate it. 00:11:43.461 --> 00:11:45.281 And I think the bar has kind of risen. 00:11:45.381 --> 00:11:47.901 I mean, if I think of football and things like XG or whatever, 00:11:48.081 --> 00:11:52.361 whatever you think of that, 10 years ago, that would have seen impossibly obscure and geeky. 00:11:52.641 --> 00:11:55.281 And now it's kind of part of a conversation in the pub. And I think, 00:11:55.481 --> 00:11:57.801 you know, hopefully the same is true. Well, isn't it my team? 00:11:58.561 --> 00:12:00.881 Really? The ranting 0.04. 00:12:02.561 --> 00:12:05.361 Oh, against Chelsea. Yeah, that was pretty dismal, that. Yeah, 00:12:05.421 --> 00:12:10.061 but people know about these things and these things aren't as obscure as they once were. 00:12:10.221 --> 00:12:12.361 And I don't know if that's true for the news more broadly, to be honest. 00:12:12.601 --> 00:12:14.281 I wish it was true. Do you? 00:12:15.650 --> 00:12:18.810 Yeah, well, of course I do, because otherwise, you know, but I think a lot of 00:12:18.810 --> 00:12:20.190 people are really switched out of the news. 00:12:20.310 --> 00:12:24.730 And I also think that it's important to bear in mind that data doesn't always change people's minds. 00:12:24.890 --> 00:12:27.770 You know, people don't, that's sort of a big thing of the Brexit referendum. 00:12:27.870 --> 00:12:30.730 People sort of just throw numbers at people and throw facts at people that they'd 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:32.290 change their opinion on things. 00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:35.370 And actually, how people vote is down to all sorts of, you know, 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:40.030 how people feel, how things are changing. It's not always numbers on a spreadsheet. 00:12:41.150 --> 00:12:44.770 Yeah i i think that's a a pretty 00:12:44.770 --> 00:12:47.510 fair way of things you can't we saw this again 00:12:47.510 --> 00:12:50.770 in the brexit referendum the sort of anti-brexit side 00:12:50.770 --> 00:12:53.370 the remain side through all sorts of numbers at the 00:12:53.370 --> 00:12:56.390 wall telling but they didn't beat the emotion of 00:12:56.390 --> 00:13:00.310 the brexit side yeah and i think i think a big mistake there was a lot of the 00:13:00.310 --> 00:13:04.290 numbers were you know i think the case was pretty clear that brexit would have 00:13:04.290 --> 00:13:06.670 a negative effect on the economy you know if you introduce barriers to trade 00:13:06.670 --> 00:13:09.850 i think that's pretty controversial to say other people might say it's still 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:12.890 worth it for all sorts of other reasons you know immigration whatever else but 00:13:12.890 --> 00:13:16.290 the remain side through really specific numbers. 00:13:16.830 --> 00:13:19.410 Like oh this will you know 5 000 edition in your 00:13:19.410 --> 00:13:22.750 household bills and that's just kind of you know you can use those projections to 00:13:22.750 --> 00:13:26.230 kind of say anything um and people don't trust them and people then people 00:13:26.230 --> 00:13:28.810 don't trust what else what else you're saying so i 00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:31.510 think you need to be really careful in using these numbers that are just kind of 00:13:31.510 --> 00:13:34.230 pretty basically get guesses and people see through that i 00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:37.470 think we're recording and publishing 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:40.430 this show exactly two weeks before the budget i suspect 00:13:40.430 --> 00:13:43.350 there's a slight look of dread and panic that's come over 00:13:43.350 --> 00:13:46.230 your face as i ask you what's that kind 00:13:46.230 --> 00:13:49.410 of day like for you in a position and a job like yours well 00:13:49.410 --> 00:13:52.110 a completely personal perspective i don't know if i actually will be that 00:13:52.110 --> 00:13:55.090 busy because i i do more for the sort of sunday time so the more members 00:13:55.090 --> 00:13:57.810 of my team will be you know frantically putting out charts in the live blog i've 00:13:57.810 --> 00:14:00.670 kind of uh for better or worse won't be doing that but 00:14:00.670 --> 00:14:05.290 yeah it's huge and i think um particularly this budget i think there's a huge 00:14:05.290 --> 00:14:08.850 feeling that there will be really big consequential tax changes that will affect 00:14:08.850 --> 00:14:12.430 people's lives in pretty massive ways and i don't think that's it's not like 00:14:12.430 --> 00:14:15.090 that every year to be honest um you know there's talks of like a significant 00:14:15.090 --> 00:14:19.230 income tax rise which is not in the labor manifesto and be pretty seismic politically. 00:14:20.673 --> 00:14:24.093 But yeah, I think that's where, you know, readers really want analysis that 00:14:24.093 --> 00:14:27.473 tells them how, you know, we do all these tax calculators, we do all these things 00:14:27.473 --> 00:14:29.413 about how the budget is going to affect you. 00:14:29.513 --> 00:14:31.973 And lots of organizations do this. I'm not saying it's something kind of particularly 00:14:31.973 --> 00:14:38.193 original, but it is a huge moment, I think, when people come to the media for 00:14:38.193 --> 00:14:39.813 something that really affects their daily lives. 00:14:39.933 --> 00:14:42.433 I mean, you know, there's all sorts of stuff going on in the news that doesn't 00:14:42.433 --> 00:14:44.593 affect your daily, you know, what Donald Trump is doing today, 00:14:44.693 --> 00:14:46.533 I suppose, in an indirect way, it might affect your life. 00:14:46.673 --> 00:14:48.733 But a lot of the news is a bit like that. It's kind of distant, 00:14:48.933 --> 00:14:52.293 it's remote. Whereas the budget is something that is really different. 00:14:52.433 --> 00:14:58.513 So I think newsrooms have a lot of responsibility to give their readers stuff they won't know. 00:14:58.913 --> 00:15:03.093 Well, and there's an interesting aspect of that for someone who works predominantly 00:15:03.093 --> 00:15:04.533 for a Sunday paper, of course. 00:15:04.773 --> 00:15:11.173 Because often what we've seen with budgets before is it takes a couple of days 00:15:11.173 --> 00:15:18.833 for everything to sort of filter through and people like you to go through the numbers, right? Yeah. 00:15:19.333 --> 00:15:23.333 And it's also kind of unpredictable what will stick, you know, the pasty tax from... 00:15:23.833 --> 00:15:27.853 Yes, for American listeners going, just Google the pasty tax, 00:15:27.973 --> 00:15:29.413 I'm not going to explain it now. 00:15:29.833 --> 00:15:34.053 But it can be these really obscure little things can completely blow up. Yeah. 00:15:35.273 --> 00:15:39.393 And kind of the joy of working for a Sunday paper actually is you can often 00:15:39.393 --> 00:15:43.153 be the person that unpacks all of that. 00:15:44.547 --> 00:15:47.187 Yeah, you'd hope so, given a few more days to think about things. 00:15:47.287 --> 00:15:50.187 I suppose the flip side of that is that often someone else will already have 00:15:50.187 --> 00:15:52.007 said it on a Friday or Saturday, which can be annoying. 00:15:52.367 --> 00:15:57.427 Yes, the worst. Yeah, it's nice to have that little bit of extra time to think about things. 00:15:57.547 --> 00:16:00.807 I mean, there's all this sort of snap reaction to a budget, which is exhausting. 00:16:00.967 --> 00:16:04.407 And often the best thing to do is just wait a few hours and you might get some 00:16:04.407 --> 00:16:05.707 better stuff in the next day's paper. 00:16:06.567 --> 00:16:10.507 Absolutely. We'll come back to all of that. And I want to ask you about life 00:16:10.507 --> 00:16:15.407 at one of the UK's, if not the world's most well-known news brands. 00:16:15.607 --> 00:16:20.447 But I just want to thank this week's sponsor, CleanMyMac. I'm thrilled they're supporting the show. 00:16:20.687 --> 00:16:24.187 It's a product I know and love, and it's helped me keep my machines running 00:16:24.187 --> 00:16:25.527 smoothly for a number of years now. 00:16:25.747 --> 00:16:28.767 CleanMyMac is your ultimate solution for Mac control and care, 00:16:28.967 --> 00:16:33.547 notarised by Apple and meticulously crafted by MacPort, a leading macOS and 00:16:33.547 --> 00:16:35.527 iOS software development company. 00:16:35.527 --> 00:16:40.067 It was featured in the Mac App Store shortlist of the best 25 apps for 2025. 00:16:40.067 --> 00:16:44.067 And as I say, it's a particular favorite of mine to keep my machines on the road. 00:16:44.607 --> 00:16:48.827 CleanMyMac has a new cloud cleanup feature that connects to your accounts on 00:16:48.827 --> 00:16:50.807 iCloud, OneDrive and Google Drive. 00:16:51.007 --> 00:16:55.147 It scans the cloud to find large space wasters, synced and unsynced files, 00:16:55.447 --> 00:16:58.087 both in cloud storage and on device. 00:16:58.347 --> 00:17:01.427 All the scanning happens locally on your Mac, so your data stays safe. 00:17:01.547 --> 00:17:05.487 To use this fantastic new feature, all you need is to be logged in on the corresponding 00:17:05.487 --> 00:17:08.067 services desktop application on your Mac. 00:17:08.227 --> 00:17:12.007 Then you can remove the files from your disk or evict them solely from the cloud 00:17:12.007 --> 00:17:15.007 storage, which instantly frees you up some gigabytes. 00:17:15.287 --> 00:17:17.727 And then if you change your mind, you can restore the files back. 00:17:18.567 --> 00:17:23.087 Paying attention to your cloud storage is beneficial both for your mental health and wallet. 00:17:23.287 --> 00:17:27.407 So get rid of those files that are weighing you down. Get tidy today. 00:17:27.847 --> 00:17:34.827 Try seven days free and use my code ADDITION for 20% off at clnmy.com slash the addition. 00:17:35.107 --> 00:17:38.867 That is clnmy.com slash the addition. 00:17:39.187 --> 00:17:42.447 And thanks to CleanMyMac for sponsoring this show. 00:17:43.167 --> 00:17:46.187 So, Joey, talk to me about what 00:17:46.187 --> 00:17:48.987 it's like when you well look you've been at the BBC as well 00:17:48.987 --> 00:17:52.547 which is again another globally recognized news 00:17:52.547 --> 00:17:55.867 brand what's it like being still 00:17:55.867 --> 00:17:58.867 you know a relatively young guy walking into those those 00:17:58.867 --> 00:18:02.027 halls and those buildings of the these mega brands I've 00:18:02.027 --> 00:18:04.667 been doing for quite a while now maybe you get used to it a bit too quickly 00:18:04.667 --> 00:18:09.447 it's exciting you know there's lots of sorts of people who don't enjoy their 00:18:09.447 --> 00:18:12.367 jobs find it boring whatever else I've certainly never felt that for all these 00:18:12.367 --> 00:18:15.787 years so yeah i feel very very lucky very privileged it's pretty yeah there's 00:18:15.787 --> 00:18:19.627 definitely you're you're not doing something right if you get have a boring day in journalism. 00:18:20.692 --> 00:18:24.212 No, and it's so varied, and people are on the art hole really good. 00:18:24.352 --> 00:18:26.272 I've found it everywhere I've worked, I'd say. 00:18:26.732 --> 00:18:29.452 Yeah, it's great. It's a privilege, and a lot of people want to do it, 00:18:29.472 --> 00:18:31.192 and I feel very lucky. Yeah. 00:18:31.652 --> 00:18:35.872 It's interesting also, you know, you hinted, you're only unfortunate at BuzzFeed 00:18:35.872 --> 00:18:37.752 a couple of months. You caught the tail end of that. 00:18:39.032 --> 00:18:42.872 But, you know, there's quite a big difference in that sort of traffic-driven 00:18:42.872 --> 00:18:46.572 era and the subscription focus of the times. 00:18:46.572 --> 00:18:50.912 I don't know, does it feel nice to have that kind of more direct connection 00:18:50.912 --> 00:18:56.412 with the readers perhaps than as opposed to try to haul people in through Google and whatever else? 00:18:57.192 --> 00:19:00.212 Yeah, I mean, the kind of strategy of it all is above my pay grade. 00:19:00.332 --> 00:19:03.392 But yeah, I mean, it's a way to make money, isn't it? There are people who are 00:19:03.392 --> 00:19:05.592 tangibly paying money for a product that they're using. 00:19:06.072 --> 00:19:09.212 And if they're not using it, they'll stop subscribing. But, you know, 00:19:09.392 --> 00:19:13.352 for the meantime, there are a lot of subscribers. Whereas back in the day of, 00:19:13.492 --> 00:19:16.212 yes, something like BuzzFeed was just purely making money off ads. 00:19:16.392 --> 00:19:19.172 And then when the ads dried up in COVID, the kind of bottom fell out of everything. 00:19:19.432 --> 00:19:25.492 So it does feel more stable and more tangible than other methods of paying for news. 00:19:25.712 --> 00:19:28.652 Yeah, I always laugh about this in journalism because we're, 00:19:28.732 --> 00:19:33.532 and in so many parts of the media, like we're going so back to the future in so many ways, right? 00:19:33.692 --> 00:19:36.352 People are wanting streaming services bundled together. 00:19:37.932 --> 00:19:42.672 Sounds a bit like cable TV to me. people are going, I just want to pay a set 00:19:42.672 --> 00:19:47.532 amount and know I can have access to this product. Sounds a bit like a newspaper subscription. 00:19:48.352 --> 00:19:53.112 These kind of things always make me laugh. And in terms of how you think we 00:19:53.112 --> 00:19:57.572 can use data more across journalism, because I still think newsrooms, 00:19:57.952 --> 00:19:59.992 there are not many equivalents of you, right? 00:20:00.092 --> 00:20:03.512 There are lots of newsrooms that are slightly underusing the capabilities, I think. 00:20:03.672 --> 00:20:07.392 I know I did a few shifts years ago on the Guardian's data desk, 00:20:07.472 --> 00:20:10.612 and they took it very seriously for a long time. 00:20:10.772 --> 00:20:13.772 But I get the sense still actually in journalism... 00:20:14.570 --> 00:20:20.290 At a number of publications, data and the ways we can unpack these things now 00:20:20.290 --> 00:20:25.630 and the stories it can tell is actually being somewhat still underutilized. 00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:31.310 I know you can't comment on other news particularly, but within the industry, what do you think? 00:20:31.770 --> 00:20:34.230 Yeah, I think it's changing quite quickly. I think there's more of a, 00:20:34.230 --> 00:20:37.630 I think there's also sort of two types of, there's the big massive projects 00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:41.690 and then there's like, you know, sticking a little bar chart in a random story, 00:20:41.830 --> 00:20:45.310 which I think is really important and helps to illustrate things and helps people to understand things. 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:49.530 And they don't need to be complicated charts. And often the best charts are the really simple ones. 00:20:49.630 --> 00:20:52.650 You know, we sort of say, if you can't understand it within three seconds, 00:20:52.830 --> 00:20:55.630 then make another chart. Do something different. 00:20:55.810 --> 00:20:58.990 Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's that idea of data journalism, not something that's 00:20:58.990 --> 00:21:02.390 this kind of separate team that sits on another floor and comes up with one story a month. 00:21:02.430 --> 00:21:06.210 It's just something that is constantly, you know, we have software that's pretty 00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:09.430 easy to use and other parts of the organization will just make a quick, 00:21:09.550 --> 00:21:12.350 you know, particularly If you're like the money team doing a stock going up 00:21:12.350 --> 00:21:15.250 or down, then we do the sort of more advanced stuff. 00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:19.370 But yeah, I think, yeah, it just should be sort of plugged into everything. 00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:21.430 And I think it kind of, you know, if you look at the FT, the BBC, 00:21:21.730 --> 00:21:23.150 Guardian, there's a lot of it about now. 00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:28.190 Yeah, I still think sometimes that, I sort of go back to my earlier point, 00:21:28.310 --> 00:21:32.370 I still think there is a slight nervousness from a lot of journalists. 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:36.930 I mean, I'm including myself in this, frankly. I'm always scared of putting 00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:38.870 a number in a story and getting it wrong, right? 00:21:38.870 --> 00:21:41.610 Because yeah i mean you should 00:21:41.610 --> 00:21:44.570 be right because it's probably yeah maybe 00:21:44.570 --> 00:21:47.710 it's a good thing but there's something even more 00:21:47.710 --> 00:21:50.390 you know swapping a million for a bit you know 00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:53.390 or just doing the calculation wrong we've all been there yeah 00:21:53.390 --> 00:21:58.610 horrific horrific i still have cold sweats about it but those kind of moments 00:21:58.610 --> 00:22:03.490 are pretty terrible but we there's just so much there is so much data you know 00:22:03.490 --> 00:22:07.570 available now just the other day i went on to the government's transparency 00:22:07.570 --> 00:22:11.230 website just on the small boat crossing because people were talking about it. 00:22:11.290 --> 00:22:13.910 So I wanted to see what the actual numbers are. 00:22:15.111 --> 00:22:19.211 Do you think governments and public bodies are actually getting better at giving 00:22:19.211 --> 00:22:22.351 us that transparency data and getting the reality out there? 00:22:23.511 --> 00:22:27.371 Yeah, I mean, well, the government will always try and conceal stuff it wants to hide. 00:22:27.491 --> 00:22:29.751 And that's, you know, we have freedom of information laws and stuff like that, 00:22:29.871 --> 00:22:31.631 which are often pretty inadequate. 00:22:31.851 --> 00:22:34.551 I mean, there is a lot of data out there. And I think, broadly speaking, 00:22:34.811 --> 00:22:37.851 gov.uk is a pretty impressive, you know, compared to other countries. 00:22:37.851 --> 00:22:40.791 You try and find these things sometimes for other countries and it's really 00:22:40.791 --> 00:22:44.211 hard. And I think it's quite, you know, if you're a student journalist or just 00:22:44.211 --> 00:22:46.771 someone earlier in your career, there's all sorts of stories that haven't been 00:22:46.771 --> 00:22:50.611 told buried in official data sets on government websites. There is so, so much out there. 00:22:50.711 --> 00:22:54.431 And it certainly hasn't all been done by The Times or the BBC or anything else. 00:22:54.591 --> 00:22:57.731 I mean, particularly if you sort of focus in on a local area or something. 00:22:57.731 --> 00:23:01.111 You it's often the best data journalism is combining those numbers with something, 00:23:01.691 --> 00:23:04.611 something else you know a tip-off a conversation with 00:23:04.611 --> 00:23:07.271 someone an insight that comes from just talking to 00:23:07.271 --> 00:23:10.071 people rather than solely just you know 00:23:10.071 --> 00:23:14.351 making charts out of numbers and public databases that's a really interesting 00:23:14.351 --> 00:23:18.891 point so because when people hear data journalism they kind of think of Nate 00:23:18.891 --> 00:23:25.071 Silver going through a great big data set making a chart or a spreadsheet or 00:23:25.071 --> 00:23:27.491 some or a few and writing about it. 00:23:27.771 --> 00:23:30.931 And that's fine. That is a great way to do data journalism. But actually, 00:23:30.931 --> 00:23:36.131 I really like what you just said there because it's a sort of indication combining 00:23:36.131 --> 00:23:42.911 sort of old school journalism with the modern tools and capabilities that we 00:23:42.911 --> 00:23:45.991 have to comb through this stuff much more quickly and succinctly. 00:23:47.123 --> 00:23:50.963 Yeah, absolutely. And I think it can be a way of kind of enhancing stories that are already being told. 00:23:51.023 --> 00:23:54.283 And it's certainly not a replacement for standard reporting and talking to people 00:23:54.283 --> 00:23:56.103 and court reporting and all those other things. 00:23:56.203 --> 00:24:00.283 I think it can just be made a layer on top of those to tell a story in more detail and more depth. 00:24:00.623 --> 00:24:04.203 Yeah, having your source say, you might want to look at these numbers or, 00:24:04.203 --> 00:24:05.583 you know, et cetera, et cetera. 00:24:05.803 --> 00:24:09.023 Yeah. And a lot of also data doesn't come from government websites. 00:24:09.183 --> 00:24:14.323 It might come from companies or all sorts of places. 00:24:14.863 --> 00:24:18.803 Yeah, I mean, corporate data actually, in some ways, is almost even more important 00:24:18.803 --> 00:24:20.823 than government data and even harder to get to. 00:24:21.263 --> 00:24:24.643 Yeah, that's the thing. It's harder to get to. Well, sometimes they share it willingly. 00:24:25.703 --> 00:24:27.703 Companies who want to tell a particular story about something, 00:24:27.783 --> 00:24:30.663 you've always got to be careful with that. Why is someone pushing this line? 00:24:30.783 --> 00:24:33.283 But lots of companies are willing to share. 00:24:33.543 --> 00:24:36.963 But often there's nothing sort of unethical about it. 00:24:37.083 --> 00:24:40.063 It's like those guys want to share something that's interesting and in exchange 00:24:40.063 --> 00:24:44.183 you quote them and that's all above board. So I think that there is, 00:24:44.363 --> 00:24:48.423 yeah, lots of data in other ways than just downloading them off gov.uk. 00:24:49.383 --> 00:24:54.703 For sure. And I think that actually, you know, we've mentioned young journalists a few times, 00:24:55.383 --> 00:24:58.203 digging out some of those things and sort of working their way through it is 00:24:58.203 --> 00:25:05.043 a good way to impress prospective employers or actually build quite interesting solo projects. 00:25:06.043 --> 00:25:08.763 Yeah absolutely i mean i was i've had all sorts 00:25:08.763 --> 00:25:11.563 of conversation with with student journalists we were starting out and 00:25:11.563 --> 00:25:14.343 one thing i always kind of say is like think about what like you know that 00:25:14.343 --> 00:25:17.523 i don't right you know i've been doing this for 10 years but someone lives 00:25:17.523 --> 00:25:20.323 in some other part of the country and their school has got some problem you 00:25:20.323 --> 00:25:23.063 know i don't know anything about that but you will know you'll be the expert 00:25:23.063 --> 00:25:26.103 you'll know more than any editor sitting in an office in london so yeah like 00:25:26.103 --> 00:25:29.323 and if you can use data to kind of enhance that story that's always gonna i 00:25:29.323 --> 00:25:33.163 suppose impress people yeah i think that's right a cheeky question what what 00:25:33.163 --> 00:25:35.703 interesting things are you looking at at the moment that we should keep an eye 00:25:35.703 --> 00:25:40.023 out for i'm still you know the football football shirts football sponsorships yeah that i i. 00:25:41.209 --> 00:25:43.189 I'm doing a big thing about football attendances at the moment. 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:47.169 I've got lots of data on that and how they sort of plunged in the 70s and 80s 00:25:47.169 --> 00:25:50.289 and are now completely booming across the board, which is really kind of impressive 00:25:50.289 --> 00:25:52.749 and exciting, you know, right down to kind of non-league level. 00:25:53.489 --> 00:25:55.709 And there's just a lot of, it's a funny kind of rhythm of the year in journalism 00:25:55.709 --> 00:25:58.329 is you have the, obviously the budget, but then the Christmas thing is everyone's 00:25:58.329 --> 00:26:02.469 trying to desperately commission kind of features and longer things because... 00:26:02.469 --> 00:26:04.489 So they don't have to do any stories over Christmas. 00:26:04.969 --> 00:26:07.269 Yeah, exactly. And the road, you know, people are going on holiday, 00:26:07.429 --> 00:26:09.949 but also there's less news, right? Like the kind of world stops. 00:26:10.189 --> 00:26:12.389 Hopefully, yeah. I mean, because, yeah, because if there is news, 00:26:12.529 --> 00:26:14.829 it tends to be like natural disasters and horrible things like that. 00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:15.209 Something horrific, yeah. 00:26:15.669 --> 00:26:18.249 Well, it's like, you know, the Pope wishes everyone a Merry Christmas or something. 00:26:18.429 --> 00:26:21.069 And most people want to be off on like the 28th of December. 00:26:21.289 --> 00:26:24.889 So in order for that to happen, you have to prepare stuff. Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:25.129 --> 00:26:27.529 And also, I think a huge part of the news is like you watch it today. 00:26:27.709 --> 00:26:28.649 It's Prime Minister's Questions. 00:26:29.429 --> 00:26:32.269 Did Donald Trump prepare a conference? He probably does. You know, 00:26:32.389 --> 00:26:38.709 but it's this sort of daily political stuff or conferences or meetings or events that are happening, 00:26:38.709 --> 00:26:41.789 which aren't happening over christmas or in the middle of august so 00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:45.089 the sort of news year has a kind of rhythm in that sense yeah 00:26:45.089 --> 00:26:48.869 and right now in in mid-november we're sort of everything's going on i want 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:53.269 you to do some data scraping on how many football teams are using zero percent 00:26:53.269 --> 00:26:58.729 beers as sponsors as a way yeah i think i think part of the reason that is is 00:26:58.729 --> 00:27:02.409 the muslim world and um muslim players and so paul pogba. 00:27:03.526 --> 00:27:11.606 Well, also, surely part of it is because alcohol brands are not allowed to advertise 00:27:11.606 --> 00:27:12.686 their football shirts here, are they? 00:27:13.826 --> 00:27:17.846 I think this is right. They're not banned. They've just sort of voluntarily 00:27:17.846 --> 00:27:21.086 ditched it because it's not a great look with children and whatever else. 00:27:21.726 --> 00:27:24.126 Interesting. But I think it came with Paul Pogbaugh a while ago, 00:27:24.206 --> 00:27:26.046 but he was being asked to advertise a beer. 00:27:26.166 --> 00:27:30.406 And he pretty reasonably said, you know, I don't, my religion, I don't drink beer. 00:27:30.686 --> 00:27:35.226 And so 0% is a kind of way around that. So it says Heineken all over the stadium, but it says 0% Heineken. 00:27:36.966 --> 00:27:41.346 But yeah, I mean, yeah. Also, I went to watch the game in France a while ago 00:27:41.346 --> 00:27:44.666 and I only realised on about my third pint that it was all 0%. 00:27:44.666 --> 00:27:46.246 So probably for the best. 00:27:46.566 --> 00:27:49.366 You only realised when you could realise, once you felt okay. 00:27:49.946 --> 00:27:53.046 Yeah, I felt completely, yeah, completely with it. All's happened. Interesting. 00:27:53.486 --> 00:27:59.286 No, there's just so many things you can do using these data sets you can get 00:27:59.286 --> 00:28:03.226 stories from. I just want to finish up actually by saying we've spoken a lot 00:28:03.226 --> 00:28:08.086 about numbers and for obvious reasons, but in some ways data doesn't have to be numbers, right? 00:28:08.206 --> 00:28:12.566 We're talking on the day where lots of the Epstein emails have been released. 00:28:12.806 --> 00:28:17.986 That in itself is a huge, interesting data set that any journalist would want 00:28:17.986 --> 00:28:22.286 to dig through and unpack stories from using data journalism techniques. 00:28:23.691 --> 00:28:26.711 Absolutely yeah the 23 000 emails whatever it was um 00:28:26.711 --> 00:28:29.451 you're right it's not just about numbers you know there are all sorts of things you 00:28:29.451 --> 00:28:32.251 can do from i'm doing something about the radio 00:28:32.251 --> 00:28:35.531 i'm a radiohead fan and i've pitched 00:28:35.531 --> 00:28:38.311 a story about the the tour happening at the moment and i'm doing a load of 00:28:38.311 --> 00:28:40.951 i mean i suppose it is numbers but it also doesn't have to be 00:28:40.951 --> 00:28:43.771 sort of hard serious news right i think also there's a massive demand at 00:28:43.771 --> 00:28:46.851 the moment for more fun stuff culture stuff 00:28:46.851 --> 00:28:50.291 sport lifestyle because the repeated 00:28:50.291 --> 00:28:53.611 thing that people always say in every kind of focus group is the news 00:28:53.611 --> 00:28:56.651 is really depressing the news is really exhausting which doesn't mean 00:28:56.651 --> 00:28:59.331 you should ever stop reporting on the horrible stuff going on in the world but i 00:28:59.331 --> 00:29:02.111 think it's also really important that news organizations do a lot else that 00:29:02.111 --> 00:29:04.971 isn't necessarily miserable um and and give people 00:29:04.971 --> 00:29:08.891 kind of rigorous analysis of things that are a bit more light-hearted well i 00:29:08.891 --> 00:29:12.711 couldn't agree anymore and that's why i write a news newsletter on the crossover 00:29:12.711 --> 00:29:16.651 of culture media and sport and i promise i didn't pay joey to do that little 00:29:16.651 --> 00:29:20.751 segue it was just that's just how good he is where I'm really thrilled I've 00:29:20.751 --> 00:29:24.051 had you on the show where can people keep up with all the work we've been discussing? 00:29:25.631 --> 00:29:28.891 On the Times website they could buy my book if they wished more than a shirt 00:29:28.891 --> 00:29:32.631 in time for Christmas There'll be a link in the show notes Thank you very much 00:29:32.631 --> 00:29:35.871 and I'm ditching Twitter to be honest but I'm trying to make Instagram happen 00:29:35.871 --> 00:29:40.671 with limited success but I've started posting on there more Okay what's your handle on Instagram? 00:29:41.091 --> 00:29:44.291 It's just my name Joey Derso Alright we'll link to all of that Whenever I go 00:29:44.291 --> 00:29:46.791 on X or Twitter these days it's like someone getting their head kicked in or 00:29:46.791 --> 00:29:48.331 something it's a bit terrifying, 00:29:49.291 --> 00:29:52.031 yeah there are some rather grim moments but 00:29:52.031 --> 00:29:55.071 i i'm still across twitter and the rest of social media 00:29:55.071 --> 00:30:00.651 at at charlotte a henry of course head over to the edition.net you can read 00:30:00.651 --> 00:30:05.731 blog posts newsletters see videos get podcasts like this everything over there 00:30:05.731 --> 00:30:09.871 at the edition.net thank you once again to clean my mac for sponsoring the show 00:30:09.871 --> 00:30:12.891 thank you joey for being here and i'll see you all next week.