WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.457 A big thank you to MacPore and their product CleanMyMac for supporting this 00:00:04.457 --> 00:00:06.057 week's episode of The Edition Podcast. 00:00:06.640 --> 00:00:16.400 Music. 00:00:16.057 --> 00:00:19.357 Hello and welcome to The Edition Podcast. 00:00:19.737 --> 00:00:24.777 I'm Charlotte Henry and this is a bit of a funny one for me because she's Emma 00:00:24.777 --> 00:00:31.477 Bunnell. Emma is a former podcast co-host of mine before she had to leave for Pastures News. 00:00:31.697 --> 00:00:34.597 So Emma Bunnell is the editor of Labour List. Hello. 00:00:35.137 --> 00:00:39.677 Hi, Charlotte. Lovely to talk to you. I miss podcasting with you so much that 00:00:39.677 --> 00:00:42.337 I had to have you back on the show, on this show. 00:00:42.517 --> 00:00:43.597 Well, thank you for having me. 00:00:43.717 --> 00:00:47.097 No, it's great. What I really want to talk about is we won't do politics. 00:00:47.437 --> 00:00:50.637 We'll do conventional politics chat. You do enough of that in your day. 00:00:50.777 --> 00:00:54.197 That's not really what this show is about. But what I'm fascinated about, 00:00:54.577 --> 00:00:59.077 well, first of all, explain what Labour List is to people. I think that's the best way to start. 00:00:59.497 --> 00:01:03.377 So Labour List is the leading website, 00:01:03.817 --> 00:01:09.257 online publication for covering and talking about the Labour Party. 00:01:09.877 --> 00:01:18.857 So we have a very particular niche in that we are there to cover all things Labour, 00:01:18.857 --> 00:01:27.777 whether that be um local selections or um what the number 10 operation is up 00:01:27.777 --> 00:01:35.577 to um we cover it all we're completely non-factional um we take uh voices from 00:01:35.577 --> 00:01:38.497 across the party and have them try to talk to each other. 00:01:40.009 --> 00:01:45.269 And so you've been doing this job a couple of weeks now, three weeks, two weeks? Three weeks. 00:01:46.949 --> 00:01:50.729 So I don't think I'm telling too many tales out of school here. 00:01:51.329 --> 00:02:00.409 I had a week where I was on board, but the previous editor was still the public face of this site, 00:02:01.969 --> 00:02:07.009 which was the week of the 1st of September, the week during which Angela Rayner... 00:02:07.009 --> 00:02:09.389 I was going to say, jeerest Emma, tell us what happened that week. 00:02:09.909 --> 00:02:14.589 So that was the week that Angela Rayner had to resign. There was a reshuffle. 00:02:14.989 --> 00:02:18.129 So Angela Rayner being the deputy leader of the Labour Party at that point, 00:02:18.229 --> 00:02:22.869 the deputy prime minister and the housing secretary all in one go. 00:02:23.169 --> 00:02:26.809 All in one go, yeah. And so she had to go. This triggered a wider reshuffle. 00:02:26.809 --> 00:02:28.549 So this triggered a wider reshuffle. 00:02:28.649 --> 00:02:34.109 So my first week, I kind of knew that we were going to be doing reshuffle, 00:02:34.989 --> 00:02:38.709 junior ministers, fallout from reshuffle, that kind of stuff. 00:02:38.709 --> 00:02:40.869 So I thought it was a busy week, but I can cope with it. 00:02:41.249 --> 00:02:43.669 And then Peter Mandelson imploded. 00:02:45.249 --> 00:02:52.269 So it just went absolutely crackers. And I was I think I did something like 00:02:52.269 --> 00:02:54.529 20 media appearances in my first week. 00:02:55.169 --> 00:02:59.309 Well, listen, you are the voice of the you have the insight of the Labour Party. 00:02:59.829 --> 00:03:03.949 What I want to do is obviously I have a lot of British listeners who will be 00:03:03.949 --> 00:03:05.929 more aware of the stories you're talking about. 00:03:05.929 --> 00:03:09.209 Lots of American listeners and what 00:03:09.209 --> 00:03:11.949 I was fascinated to talk to you about it wasn't just to have a gossip because 00:03:11.949 --> 00:03:14.769 we can do that over and let's do 00:03:14.769 --> 00:03:17.469 that well we do and but what 00:03:17.469 --> 00:03:23.869 I wanted to get into was where labelist and equivalent sites sit in a modern 00:03:23.869 --> 00:03:28.149 media landscape because for some people they see it and they go oh it's a blog 00:03:28.149 --> 00:03:32.669 aren't we over blogging isn't it a bit old-fashioned why does it matter you're 00:03:32.669 --> 00:03:35.949 shaking your head I'm pleased you're shaking your head because I do agree with, 00:03:36.089 --> 00:03:39.749 I agree with your head shaking because look, you and I, let's be honest. 00:03:40.648 --> 00:03:43.688 Came of age you know sort 00:03:43.688 --> 00:03:46.968 of got our political writing starts blogging in 00:03:46.968 --> 00:03:49.768 fact in some occasions we did that together and that's 00:03:49.768 --> 00:03:52.468 sort of how we met so for us 00:03:52.468 --> 00:03:55.408 we you know political blogging and blogging in general has a 00:03:55.408 --> 00:03:59.108 little place in our heart but there's more 00:03:59.108 --> 00:04:02.228 to it than that and you've described it as sort of non-factional trying 00:04:02.228 --> 00:04:05.208 to cover everything and this was important 00:04:05.208 --> 00:04:09.688 while the party was in opposition because it's about how can you get it self-ready 00:04:09.688 --> 00:04:16.088 for the chance to be in government and it's also important obviously when the 00:04:16.088 --> 00:04:20.508 party is in government that doesn't really need more explanation but sites like 00:04:20.508 --> 00:04:23.348 this that really go into the weeds of a party. 00:04:24.768 --> 00:04:30.068 Whether you like the party or not I personally think still matter what was your 00:04:30.068 --> 00:04:33.148 take on how this media environment sits? 00:04:33.608 --> 00:04:38.008 Well, obviously, I think LaborList matters. Otherwise, I wouldn't have applied for the job. 00:04:39.248 --> 00:04:48.408 But I think more and more political coverage in the national press, 00:04:48.448 --> 00:04:54.088 and don't get me wrong, I think there's some exceptional political journalists in the national press, 00:04:54.828 --> 00:05:01.808 but they cover the horse race, the ins and outs, the who's up who's down um 00:05:01.808 --> 00:05:07.148 the scandals they don't really know and understand, 00:05:08.168 --> 00:05:14.948 some of the stuff that you only really know if you're a party member and be 00:05:14.948 --> 00:05:20.028 honest babe if you're a nerd well yeah but I think those two things can be synonymous 00:05:20.028 --> 00:05:22.028 and I mean that You said it, not me. 00:05:22.588 --> 00:05:25.568 I am absolutely a party member and a nerd. 00:05:28.308 --> 00:05:34.728 And I've said this to you like dozens of times, something like between 1% and 00:05:34.728 --> 00:05:40.968 2%, I think closer to 1%, of this country are members of any political party at all. 00:05:41.868 --> 00:05:44.808 That means that we are statistically really weird. 00:05:45.868 --> 00:05:48.748 And so it is perfectly kind of 00:05:48.748 --> 00:05:52.888 understandable that if somebody's job is 00:05:52.888 --> 00:05:55.808 to be based in the lobby of the houses of parliament which 00:05:55.808 --> 00:06:02.348 to be fair so is mine part-time um they are going to get a particular perspective 00:06:02.348 --> 00:06:09.628 on what politics is and does and is like that is actually very different from 00:06:09.628 --> 00:06:15.168 what the average party member experiences his politics as. 00:06:15.548 --> 00:06:21.268 And so sites like Labour List or Con Home, which is the Tory equivalent. 00:06:23.103 --> 00:06:33.183 Are all about both dialogue between SW1 and the parties, but also unpacking what it is, 00:06:33.283 --> 00:06:42.183 what the pressures on politicians of those given parties are that are outside of the pressures of SW1, 00:06:42.843 --> 00:06:46.963 the things that people don't really understand unless they're deep in the weeds of a party. 00:06:47.143 --> 00:06:51.203 And that matters because these are also the people taking decisions about our lives. 00:06:51.923 --> 00:06:55.403 Absolutely. And they give an insight, 00:06:55.843 --> 00:06:59.443 you know, the Times political editor, the Sun political editor, 00:06:59.443 --> 00:07:05.463 are not going to sit in drafty town halls and church halls at a, you know, 00:07:05.603 --> 00:07:12.383 a local Labour Party or local Conservative Association meeting where motion XYZ is, you know, 00:07:12.683 --> 00:07:15.923 debated by people who've been part of said organisation for 30 years. 00:07:15.923 --> 00:07:23.643 Yeah exactly so i was on i was on the zoom uh nomination call for my local constituency 00:07:23.643 --> 00:07:31.043 party the other day there was you know and it was it was all the things that the labor party both, 00:07:31.603 --> 00:07:37.583 i love and infuriate me and love and all members get love and infuriate. 00:07:38.323 --> 00:07:41.123 Um and it was yeah it was an interesting discussion in the 00:07:41.123 --> 00:07:44.023 end but there was you know you have 00:07:44.023 --> 00:07:47.443 to know those meetings to know what 00:07:47.443 --> 00:07:51.883 it means for the 00:07:51.883 --> 00:07:55.023 pressures then on our MP or the pressures then 00:07:55.023 --> 00:07:58.683 on our local councillors and all 00:07:58.683 --> 00:08:01.563 of the discussion what what what is behind that 00:08:01.563 --> 00:08:04.423 discussion and what's going on yeah I think 00:08:04.423 --> 00:08:08.143 that's fair and I think in a media environment where 00:08:08.143 --> 00:08:11.243 everything is about niches 00:08:11.243 --> 00:08:14.103 now that expression riches in 00:08:14.103 --> 00:08:18.703 niches if you put on an American action I think 00:08:18.703 --> 00:08:22.583 is of it is provably true and therefore 00:08:22.583 --> 00:08:25.163 look I'm just know you're new to the job and I know you're not going to 00:08:25.163 --> 00:08:29.083 give me any numbers but it must give you confidence in 00:08:29.083 --> 00:08:33.243 the business model not just because labelist has been around for a long time 00:08:33.243 --> 00:08:41.043 but people still want the kind of content I think you are providing on equivalent 00:08:41.043 --> 00:08:46.563 sites provide something you know in depth yeah exactly that I think um. 00:08:48.409 --> 00:08:53.969 We report on the day-to-day of the Labour Party. What is the NEC done? 00:08:54.249 --> 00:08:57.349 Sorry, the National Executive Committee, who are like the governing body of the party. 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:04.209 What's happening at conference? But we also explore the why. 00:09:05.149 --> 00:09:08.749 And I think we have two audiences, basically. 00:09:09.149 --> 00:09:14.069 We have an audience of Labour members and we have an audience of people who 00:09:14.069 --> 00:09:17.189 need to understand Labour Party and Labour members. 00:09:17.769 --> 00:09:24.869 Yep. and we try to cater to both of those audiences as well as we can by going 00:09:24.869 --> 00:09:27.769 into things in a bit more depth, with a bit more crunch. 00:09:27.989 --> 00:09:37.149 Yeah, which a national publication or a generalist politics publication simply cannot do. No, no. 00:09:37.409 --> 00:09:44.069 And you, like, I've written for The Guardian about the Peter Mandelson thing. 00:09:45.529 --> 00:09:48.789 But I could not have written a piece 00:09:48.789 --> 00:09:51.469 so I write a piece of analysis once or 00:09:51.469 --> 00:09:54.689 twice a week yeah none of those would find 00:09:54.689 --> 00:09:57.869 a birth in a national paper but I 00:09:57.869 --> 00:10:00.909 hope that they illuminate some of the thinking that's 00:10:00.909 --> 00:10:04.529 going on under the surface in politics right and 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:08.249 I'm just browsing through the site now uh there's 00:10:08.249 --> 00:10:11.089 a piece from you comparing the Labour Party and the Lib Dems and explaining that 00:10:11.089 --> 00:10:14.509 relationship we'll do 00:10:14.509 --> 00:10:17.949 that off air um I think I'm quite I'm obliquely 00:10:17.949 --> 00:10:20.629 quite nice about you oh well not me I'm not 00:10:20.629 --> 00:10:23.449 a member of any party but no but I sort of said I know some 00:10:23.449 --> 00:10:26.489 Lib Dems and some of them I quite like even oh thanks 00:10:26.489 --> 00:10:29.869 both again I'm not sure I'm a Lib Dem anymore well again 00:10:29.869 --> 00:10:34.809 different show different conversation but you've got you've got a piece there 00:10:34.809 --> 00:10:38.989 from the education secretary who is running to also be deputy leader of the 00:10:38.989 --> 00:10:46.309 party as bridget philipson now that kind of thing is important i think for that 00:10:46.309 --> 00:10:48.109 kind of work to have a home. 00:10:50.229 --> 00:10:52.709 Yeah and i think you know um, 00:10:54.729 --> 00:11:01.069 as i say a generalist publication even though digital space is limitless, 00:11:01.729 --> 00:11:04.629 the people whose job it is to put it up to 00:11:04.629 --> 00:11:07.529 proofread it to edit it their time is not limitless they 00:11:07.529 --> 00:11:13.789 have a lot to do absolutely so it's again you know their economics wouldn't 00:11:13.789 --> 00:11:19.329 work for this our economics only exist if we can do this and do this well right 00:11:19.329 --> 00:11:24.069 can you dive into that a bit because again I speak to lots of people that have 00:11:24.069 --> 00:11:26.309 these for want of a better phrase nice, 00:11:27.269 --> 00:11:31.829 outlines I know also obviously some of it is you have support from trade unions 00:11:31.829 --> 00:11:38.789 unite the union the FBE that's on the bottom of the website as well but explain 00:11:38.789 --> 00:11:43.629 the sort of business model behind it and the power of a niche website catering 00:11:43.629 --> 00:11:46.589 to a very specific audience well I think. 00:11:47.707 --> 00:11:53.707 I'm very, very lucky. Labour List has waxed and waned in its fortunes over the 00:11:53.707 --> 00:11:58.067 years, as many businesses, particularly media businesses, I'm sure you're aware, do. 00:11:58.327 --> 00:12:03.107 Oh, yes. But I've inherited an organisation in a fantastic shape. 00:12:03.247 --> 00:12:05.907 Oh, great. So if it goes wrong, we can blame you. Absolutely, 00:12:06.107 --> 00:12:07.247 100%. Perfect. Yeah, great. 00:12:07.687 --> 00:12:10.647 Tom Belger's really left it in a great condition. 00:12:10.647 --> 00:12:15.487 I've got great journalists writing for me, which means, again, that I, 00:12:15.727 --> 00:12:20.567 as editor, don't have to do all of the day-to-day journalism stuff i can you 00:12:20.567 --> 00:12:25.387 know take a step back and go okay well what will complement this reporting right 00:12:25.387 --> 00:12:31.047 um and we have an amazing business manager who does, 00:12:31.687 --> 00:12:36.907 uh doesn't do any editorial she's not involved in the editorial side but she 00:12:36.907 --> 00:12:43.707 brings in things like um all of the she she works with our advertising the organization 00:12:43.707 --> 00:12:47.387 does all our advertising She does all of our sponsored events, 00:12:47.827 --> 00:12:50.067 sponsored content, anything like that. 00:12:51.587 --> 00:12:53.707 There's a lot to unpack there because that's really interesting. 00:12:54.027 --> 00:12:59.487 Talk about events. How important are events to a business like yours? 00:12:59.947 --> 00:13:03.647 I think they're really important. I think. 00:13:04.927 --> 00:13:09.567 Well, let me put it this way. I get the sense post-COVID, this is not a particularly 00:13:09.567 --> 00:13:15.807 original or groundbreaking piece of analysis, But it has become pretty clear 00:13:15.807 --> 00:13:18.347 in the last two, three years, however you want to judge it, 00:13:18.507 --> 00:13:26.247 that people really value now being in the same place with people with similar interests, 00:13:26.827 --> 00:13:30.027 having a conversation or overhearing an interesting conversation. 00:13:30.347 --> 00:13:32.487 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. 00:13:33.647 --> 00:13:36.887 People really do value that in-person contact. 00:13:37.947 --> 00:13:44.147 Sometimes we do online events. Yep. that may be something that we'll explore 00:13:44.147 --> 00:13:49.407 more of in the future but I think it is. 00:13:51.047 --> 00:13:54.647 That sense of being part of something um 00:13:54.647 --> 00:14:02.107 I think politics in many ways and um if if my business manager listens to this 00:14:02.107 --> 00:14:05.587 uh she's gonna laugh because she knows I overuse this word but there's a lot 00:14:05.587 --> 00:14:13.227 of parasocial relationships involved in both politics and media absolutely and. 00:14:14.407 --> 00:14:19.467 You and I have both been to live recordings of a podcast that we both love right, 00:14:19.967 --> 00:14:25.467 why do we do that why would we go to that when we know we could get all like 00:14:25.467 --> 00:14:30.927 90% of the content in our ears in our usual manner because that stuff is fun 00:14:30.927 --> 00:14:33.027 and you're having a laugh with people. 00:14:34.096 --> 00:14:36.936 That have a laugh over similar things 00:14:36.936 --> 00:14:39.636 to you exactly and it doesn't have to be 00:14:39.636 --> 00:14:42.396 fun can be in depth I mean this 00:14:42.396 --> 00:14:45.016 is not I wouldn't dream of comparing you to 00:14:45.016 --> 00:14:48.496 these people but when you see packed audiences 00:14:48.496 --> 00:14:53.096 for things like Alessa Campbell and Rory Stewart I wish 00:14:53.096 --> 00:14:56.196 people could see Emma's face um it is 00:14:56.196 --> 00:14:59.116 like there's no denying particularly in 00:14:59.116 --> 00:15:01.916 the podcasting world but equally I think 00:15:01.916 --> 00:15:05.216 columnists and people that people enjoy reading regularly 00:15:05.216 --> 00:15:08.156 people like to be in the same room as them and 00:15:08.156 --> 00:15:11.356 you can't run a successful media business unless you're embracing that. 00:15:11.356 --> 00:15:14.296 No 100% and you know 00:15:14.296 --> 00:15:16.956 um so our events run the 00:15:16.956 --> 00:15:21.136 gamut from um you know interesting panel 00:15:21.136 --> 00:15:26.056 events at conference um hilariously 00:15:26.056 --> 00:15:28.856 in 2011 I went 00:15:28.856 --> 00:15:31.676 to the editor of labelist and said I am going to 00:15:31.676 --> 00:15:35.236 throw you a karaoke fundraiser 00:15:35.236 --> 00:15:38.936 at conference and he looks at me very sceptically 00:15:38.936 --> 00:15:41.756 this is the most Emma this is up there with the most Emma Bunnell 00:15:41.756 --> 00:15:45.296 things and it is now an absolutely legendary party 00:15:45.296 --> 00:15:50.056 we have sold out our tickets um well in advance of conference and I now have 00:15:50.056 --> 00:15:55.876 to MC it as the editor so for people that listen to this know Emma you understand 00:15:55.876 --> 00:16:02.976 my reaction those that don't karaoke the Labour Party is about as prime time Emma a combination. 00:16:04.596 --> 00:16:10.156 It's true it's fair uh which is great fun but it shows you like the important, 00:16:11.296 --> 00:16:14.676 nature of those live events and presumably financially they're 00:16:14.676 --> 00:16:19.256 increasingly important to the business yeah um 00:16:19.256 --> 00:16:25.916 I think that uh what both our business manager and myself would tell you is 00:16:25.916 --> 00:16:35.856 that we want to ensure that we can deliver high-quality events that have some 00:16:35.856 --> 00:16:38.536 form of editorial purpose. Right. 00:16:39.596 --> 00:16:46.996 And that we want to never have events eclipse our editorial purpose. 00:16:47.476 --> 00:16:49.356 Break that down a bit. Explain that. 00:16:49.876 --> 00:16:55.296 So we have to pay the salaries. 00:16:55.536 --> 00:16:58.596 And etc etc and events is a massive 00:16:58.596 --> 00:17:06.236 massive part of doing that what we couldn't do is host an event that. 00:17:08.025 --> 00:17:12.545 Were sponsored by the Conservative Party, for example, saying to vote Tory. 00:17:13.805 --> 00:17:21.585 We have to stick with our editorial line and events and sponsorships can't interfere with that. 00:17:22.465 --> 00:17:25.765 Right. Yes, I understand exactly what you're saying. 00:17:27.325 --> 00:17:32.945 And how you talked about paying salaries. Obviously, I know you've run a business 00:17:32.945 --> 00:17:36.045 and worked for yourself and done freelance writing and all sorts of years. 00:17:36.805 --> 00:17:41.045 What's that been like for you? Again, this might be one for over a cup of coffee 00:17:41.045 --> 00:17:42.345 as opposed to on a microphone. 00:17:42.585 --> 00:17:47.705 But what's it been like for you suddenly being given a budget sheet, 00:17:47.845 --> 00:17:52.225 other people's salaries, setting people on reporting assignments? 00:17:53.225 --> 00:17:55.905 Again, I know you're very experienced in the comms and media world, 00:17:56.005 --> 00:17:59.445 but this is a slightly different thing, no? It is a different role. 00:18:00.645 --> 00:18:04.745 I've been a consultant for the last, I think, seven or eight years. 00:18:04.745 --> 00:18:07.565 And the thing about 00:18:07.565 --> 00:18:11.085 consultancy is you suggest now you 00:18:11.085 --> 00:18:13.985 have to do it uh well no it's not that I 00:18:13.985 --> 00:18:19.525 have to do it no it's worse than that I I don't suggest if I say something people 00:18:19.525 --> 00:18:23.965 go okay I'll do that then rather than let's have a conversation about whether 00:18:23.965 --> 00:18:30.365 that should be done and that's a mindset shift that I that I've done but that 00:18:30.365 --> 00:18:33.505 I have to remind myself to be in, 00:18:34.465 --> 00:18:39.785 I'm just terrified by the idea I can't just go let's do x because let's do x 00:18:39.785 --> 00:18:49.105 turns into something that is actioned now terrifying no it is it is slightly 00:18:49.105 --> 00:18:51.745 terrifying but on the other hand And, you know, 00:18:51.865 --> 00:18:54.265 it's what happens when you get promoted, essentially. 00:18:56.145 --> 00:19:00.265 I did use, you'll laugh at this, I used the phrase cost-benefit analysis with 00:19:00.265 --> 00:19:03.865 a straight face the other day. Oh, God. We've really gone off the deep end. 00:19:06.027 --> 00:19:11.147 Tell me then where you see this, like, you know, you talked about ups and downs, 00:19:11.287 --> 00:19:13.067 that's inevitable in any media business. 00:19:13.387 --> 00:19:17.647 We're obviously in a pretty fraught time for politics. I think people are consuming 00:19:17.647 --> 00:19:20.127 more politics in more forms than ever before. 00:19:21.207 --> 00:19:25.327 How do you see the development of Labour List, say the next six months, 00:19:25.447 --> 00:19:27.427 the first year of your tenure, etc, etc? 00:19:28.227 --> 00:19:32.267 Well, I can't reveal all our plans, obviously. I mean, you can. 00:19:32.527 --> 00:19:35.447 We have them. um again I 00:19:35.447 --> 00:19:38.967 think it's um just building on we have 00:19:38.967 --> 00:19:41.907 this great site doing great reporting I think 00:19:41.907 --> 00:19:48.887 leaning more into the analysis side um and then thinking about our relationship 00:19:48.887 --> 00:19:55.527 with our readers and how we can develop that how we can service that better 00:19:55.527 --> 00:20:00.967 for them how we can make servicing that better for them work for us in the longer term, 00:20:02.487 --> 00:20:07.127 where do scoops sit in all of this normally in westman's the scoops are the 00:20:07.127 --> 00:20:10.567 name of the game how does that fit in for a site like yours. 00:20:12.667 --> 00:20:15.987 It's nice when we break news um we 00:20:15.987 --> 00:20:18.967 do get some scoops if you read politico london 00:20:18.967 --> 00:20:23.647 playbook you'll have seen in the last couple of weeks things like our polling 00:20:23.647 --> 00:20:31.507 um was covered really widely um we had a story on uh the fact that the hustings 00:20:31.507 --> 00:20:35.387 aren't happening until very late in the day on the wednesday of conference for 00:20:35.387 --> 00:20:37.227 the deputy leadership for the deputy leadership. 00:20:38.047 --> 00:20:42.687 So scoops are definitely a part of it um and again i come back to the fact that 00:20:42.687 --> 00:20:44.207 i've got journalists who work 00:20:44.207 --> 00:20:53.287 quickly and well and accurately sure um i think what we would want to do, 00:20:53.867 --> 00:21:04.767 and I think what we're good at is adding values to the scoops because for most media organisations, 00:21:05.447 --> 00:21:07.267 it's scoop and move on. 00:21:07.667 --> 00:21:10.727 Get to the next scoop, get to the next scoop, get to the next scoop. 00:21:10.847 --> 00:21:15.907 Whereas we might get, say, that polling and go, OK, well, that's really interesting. 00:21:16.027 --> 00:21:20.527 What is it that they're telling us? What are the comments that are underneath this? 00:21:20.527 --> 00:21:23.707 What are the trends where do 00:21:23.707 --> 00:21:27.787 these things fit with these things um so 00:21:27.787 --> 00:21:30.847 that we can kind of get a little bit richer in 00:21:30.847 --> 00:21:35.487 terms of both our understanding of 00:21:35.487 --> 00:21:38.687 the party but also of our reporting 00:21:38.687 --> 00:21:44.707 of the party right yeah so it is not just about person x in the party thinks 00:21:44.707 --> 00:21:48.607 this person y thinks this you're digging into what's actually happening whether 00:21:48.607 --> 00:21:52.687 it is at that local level or the national level do you think the role of the 00:21:52.687 --> 00:21:56.547 site changes when the party moves into government. 00:21:59.492 --> 00:22:03.332 It's a really good question. Oh, that's good. It's taken us 25 minutes. 00:22:04.952 --> 00:22:07.752 I've got that. I mean, at least you've got one in, Charlotte. 00:22:07.752 --> 00:22:08.832 I've got that. I've got that. 00:22:12.992 --> 00:22:14.712 I don't think so. 00:22:17.852 --> 00:22:25.072 Because the site is not just the SW1 party or even just the Cabinet. 00:22:25.072 --> 00:22:30.072 It um we like 00:22:30.072 --> 00:22:33.072 to think of ourselves as an 00:22:33.072 --> 00:22:36.252 honest and trusted friend nobody who 00:22:36.252 --> 00:22:39.192 writes for labor lists doesn't want the labor 00:22:39.192 --> 00:22:42.272 government to succeed and be re-elected right that's 00:22:42.272 --> 00:22:49.072 that's our bread and butter that's who we are right so it's our how you interpret 00:22:49.072 --> 00:22:55.212 what that means and how what behaviours lead to that success and re-election 00:22:55.212 --> 00:23:01.072 so if the party is not doing that well, 00:23:02.352 --> 00:23:08.012 it's not our job to simply go day in day out hey you guys aren't doing that 00:23:08.012 --> 00:23:16.552 well it's our job to think about and to offer and to platform ideas for how they could do better, 00:23:17.512 --> 00:23:21.512 it's fascinating I want to come and talk about the not doing so well in a moment 00:23:21.512 --> 00:23:23.712 but first I want to thank our sponsor for today. 00:23:25.689 --> 00:23:30.949 This week's show is sponsored by MacPore and their fantastic product, CleanMyMac. 00:23:31.189 --> 00:23:34.269 I'm thrilled they're supporting the show because this is a product I know, 00:23:34.669 --> 00:23:38.989 love, and that has helped me keep my machines running smoothly for a number of years now. 00:23:39.609 --> 00:23:42.949 CleanMyMac is your ultimate solution for Mac control and care, 00:23:43.469 --> 00:23:48.549 notarised by Apple and meticulously crafted by MacPore, a leading macOS and 00:23:48.549 --> 00:23:50.169 iOS software development company. 00:23:50.349 --> 00:23:54.789 It was featured in the Mac App Store shortlist of the best 25 apps for 2025 00:23:54.789 --> 00:23:58.249 and, as I say, is a particular favourite of mine. 00:23:58.969 --> 00:24:04.009 CleanMyMac has a new cloud cleanup feature that connects to your accounts on 00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:06.329 iCloud, OneDrive and Google Drive. 00:24:06.469 --> 00:24:10.849 It scans the clouds to find large space wasters, synced and unsynced files, 00:24:11.149 --> 00:24:13.769 both in cloud storage and on device. 00:24:14.049 --> 00:24:17.249 All scanning happens locally, so your data stays very safe. 00:24:17.409 --> 00:24:21.749 To use this fantastic new feature, all you need is to be logged in on the corresponding 00:24:21.749 --> 00:24:24.889 service on their desktop application. 00:24:25.429 --> 00:24:30.269 You can then remove files from your disk or evict them solely from your cloud 00:24:30.269 --> 00:24:33.149 storage, instantly getting you some free gigabytes. 00:24:33.169 --> 00:24:35.849 If you change your mind, you can restore the files back. 00:24:36.269 --> 00:24:40.849 Paying attention to your cloud storage is beneficial both for your mental health and your wallet. 00:24:40.989 --> 00:24:44.889 So get rid of those files that are weighing you down. Get tidy today. 00:24:45.169 --> 00:24:53.469 Try seven days free and use my code ADDITION for 20% off at clnmy.com slash the edition. 00:24:53.709 --> 00:25:01.409 That is clnmy.com slash t-h-e-a-d-d-i-t-i-o-n. 00:25:01.529 --> 00:25:05.769 Thanks to MacPaw with their product CleanMyMac for supporting this show. 00:25:07.929 --> 00:25:11.169 I'm here with Labour List editor Emma Bunnell. 00:25:12.209 --> 00:25:15.529 I'm really pleased to have you here. Right, You mentioned just before the break 00:25:15.529 --> 00:25:22.069 this idea of, you know, a difficult friend, a true friend, holding things to 00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:23.689 account if it's not going so well. 00:25:24.849 --> 00:25:30.289 I think it's fair to say by any standard it's not going so well at the moment. How... 00:25:31.792 --> 00:25:36.432 Do you navigate that? Let's think of, you mentioned at the top of the show, 00:25:36.712 --> 00:25:39.992 the difficult first few days you had where this chaos was reigning. 00:25:41.192 --> 00:25:44.252 You know, then you've had a state visit from President Trump. 00:25:44.472 --> 00:25:45.812 There's been a lot going on. 00:25:46.412 --> 00:25:50.532 There is a general perception, like it or not, agree with it or not, 00:25:50.652 --> 00:25:54.132 things are not going well for this government. How do you fit into that? 00:25:55.472 --> 00:26:02.492 So I think we try to be honest about where the party's at, where members are at. 00:26:03.512 --> 00:26:08.112 I've instituted new letters to the editor. Yes, I saw that. I like that. 00:26:08.872 --> 00:26:12.792 I mean, it was interesting. It was because the first thing that anyone asked 00:26:12.792 --> 00:26:17.212 me when I said I'd got the job was, will you be reinstating comments? 00:26:17.372 --> 00:26:20.292 To which, frankly, the only answer is no. 00:26:20.572 --> 00:26:25.992 You mean comments under the line? Exactly. We do not have the capacity to moderate. 00:26:27.052 --> 00:26:30.232 Um yeah you don't want to be getting involved in that it's it's 00:26:30.232 --> 00:26:33.092 you know people have got themselves into all sorts 00:26:33.092 --> 00:26:36.452 of trouble we just don't have that that that capacity 00:26:36.452 --> 00:26:39.872 but I do understand the instinct behind 00:26:39.872 --> 00:26:42.672 the question which is why I 00:26:42.672 --> 00:26:45.652 thought well what what was moderation before the 00:26:45.652 --> 00:26:48.452 internet it was writing to the led and the thing is 00:26:48.452 --> 00:26:52.332 this goes I'm not letting you off the question I asked you but it 00:26:52.332 --> 00:26:55.372 does go back to your point about a parasocial relationship yeah 00:26:55.372 --> 00:26:58.292 you have a presence online and offline within 00:26:58.292 --> 00:27:03.112 the Labour Party you have a presence within that site you've 00:27:03.112 --> 00:27:06.072 clearly as you've stated see that part of the role of 00:27:06.072 --> 00:27:09.632 you and the site is facilitating a conversation 00:27:09.632 --> 00:27:12.732 yeah around what's going on so something like 00:27:12.732 --> 00:27:15.972 letters to the editor is quite a nice way of doing it it is 00:27:15.972 --> 00:27:18.852 um and the reason I got onto 00:27:18.852 --> 00:27:21.932 it is because I think it is important that we reflect where 00:27:21.932 --> 00:27:28.552 the membership is at and what they're feeling right but we can also be part 00:27:28.552 --> 00:27:36.792 of telling them a slightly better story um there are positive things the government 00:27:36.792 --> 00:27:40.992 is doing and you're not going to get that in the national press, 00:27:41.652 --> 00:27:47.132 and they you know you're not going to hear those stories and we we can tell 00:27:47.132 --> 00:27:52.892 them we can tell them honestly and well because we believe in them so um. 00:27:54.982 --> 00:28:00.142 There are real achievements that Labour has had in its first year, 00:28:00.342 --> 00:28:05.762 despite the fact that they have also made mistakes and they have got themselves into a bit of a mess. 00:28:08.242 --> 00:28:12.622 Now, if we were just to write the gosh, they've got themselves into a bit of 00:28:12.622 --> 00:28:17.202 a mess stories, how is that different from any other platform? 00:28:17.202 --> 00:28:20.102 Whereas if we can say whilst getting 00:28:20.102 --> 00:28:23.782 themselves into a mess they have also achieved x 00:28:23.782 --> 00:28:26.662 y and z i think that gives us a space 00:28:26.662 --> 00:28:30.862 that no one else is taking up sure although 00:28:30.862 --> 00:28:36.022 it obviously has to be honest yeah but there are honest good stories to tell 00:28:36.022 --> 00:28:40.862 sure uh yeah there there were i mean i mean when i find them i'll let you know 00:28:40.862 --> 00:28:47.082 but anyway we won't do it i mean that you don't think we are is probably a good 00:28:47.082 --> 00:28:48.482 sign because you're such a Tory. 00:28:49.282 --> 00:28:52.802 Wait, hang on, you've put me in every other political party during this conversation. 00:28:52.942 --> 00:28:58.262 I mean, Lib Dems and Tories, given that you were most aggressively Lib Dem from 00:28:58.262 --> 00:29:02.402 2010 to 2015, you're the same thing in my mind. Right, brilliant. 00:29:04.962 --> 00:29:09.142 My apologies has nothing to do with this. You opened the door to that, Charlotte, my dear. 00:29:09.262 --> 00:29:12.162 It's fine, it's fine. but I think what 00:29:12.162 --> 00:29:15.682 is in like that idea of the 00:29:15.682 --> 00:29:20.682 honest friend but also having to put do you like does it ever feel tiring trying 00:29:20.682 --> 00:29:26.382 to find a positive spin no um and we don't maybe it's I'm sorry it's not a case 00:29:26.382 --> 00:29:29.942 yeah it was a bit disingenuous of me to say spin because that's not what it's 00:29:29.942 --> 00:29:35.362 about no I do know you better than that it's it really isn't that it's. 00:29:37.322 --> 00:29:40.922 It's balancing uh the the 00:29:40.922 --> 00:29:43.942 you know the hundreds and hundreds of things 00:29:43.942 --> 00:29:49.222 that government any government does every day with the five things that are 00:29:49.222 --> 00:29:58.622 reported in the national press every day sure um and you know if we are a site 00:29:58.622 --> 00:30:01.862 that is a friend of the labor party whoever's leading it, 00:30:02.642 --> 00:30:05.362 wherever they are in terms of being in or out of 00:30:05.362 --> 00:30:09.042 governments whatever think about 00:30:09.042 --> 00:30:12.682 your friends if you have a friend who never 00:30:12.682 --> 00:30:15.622 tells you when you're getting stuff wrong they're not actually a 00:30:15.622 --> 00:30:18.562 very good friend right well the thing is but I'm actually 00:30:18.562 --> 00:30:21.402 perfect so my friends 00:30:21.402 --> 00:30:28.522 don't have much to say on that front okay we'll we'll talk off mic um uh but 00:30:28.522 --> 00:30:33.282 the other thing is if you have a friend who only ever criticises you you just 00:30:33.282 --> 00:30:37.482 stop listening because who wants who wants that friend totally so it really 00:30:37.482 --> 00:30:38.742 is about finding a balance. 00:30:40.273 --> 00:30:44.193 Yeah, that must be quite a day-to-day difficulty, actually, now I think about 00:30:44.193 --> 00:30:49.473 it, of like, you know you want to be honest, and just you as an individual, 00:30:49.473 --> 00:30:53.233 by definition, can't agree with everything, because that's not... 00:30:53.233 --> 00:30:56.593 No, and nobody ever does. And that's not how the world works. 00:30:57.273 --> 00:31:01.433 And your reporters will have a different perception. You take comments from 00:31:01.433 --> 00:31:03.573 all different people's and different comment pieces. 00:31:04.753 --> 00:31:10.793 So it must be like... So I don't necessarily agree with every comment piece I'll ever publish. 00:31:11.073 --> 00:31:15.613 In fact, I'm very keen to publish things I don't agree with. That's the point. Yeah. 00:31:17.673 --> 00:31:22.313 But it's more when we cover something that's newsworthy. 00:31:24.293 --> 00:31:31.253 My question to the reporters is, what are we adding that the seven other journalists 00:31:31.253 --> 00:31:33.573 writing about this aren't? 00:31:33.753 --> 00:31:37.673 Why can you write about it? And why is it better than or different than what 00:31:37.673 --> 00:31:39.913 The Guardian are writing about it, what The Times are writing about it, 00:31:39.973 --> 00:31:40.993 what The Telegraph are writing about it? 00:31:41.393 --> 00:31:43.433 Just a couple more questions. 00:31:43.833 --> 00:31:48.833 The site is very text based. You have spent a long time being a writer. 00:31:50.733 --> 00:31:54.033 For me, and this is not something I like, by the way, as you know, 00:31:54.233 --> 00:31:58.473 but the world has gone very video focused, whether that's short form vertical 00:31:58.473 --> 00:32:00.573 video or three hours on YouTube. 00:32:01.533 --> 00:32:07.413 How does labor list navigate that brave new world watch this space okay, 00:32:09.113 --> 00:32:13.193 but look i i know from our conversation this is something you're conscious of, 00:32:14.533 --> 00:32:18.613 but equally okay so you'll launch a youtube channel do some tiktok stuff whatever, 00:32:19.253 --> 00:32:22.733 i'm not going to push you i know because you won't tell me what your plans are 00:32:22.733 --> 00:32:28.833 but if you want to tell me exclusively you're welcome but okay you start those channels and. 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.379 Presumably, you never want to lose the importance of the written site. 00:32:34.739 --> 00:32:39.099 100% not. No, this is a plus, not a instead of. 00:32:39.339 --> 00:32:46.379 So today, as this comes out, you will see video of me interviewing Bridget Philipson. 00:32:47.159 --> 00:32:49.979 Educational Secretary running to be Deputy Leader. Exactly that. 00:32:51.479 --> 00:32:55.159 So that's something that the site hasn't done for a while. 00:32:57.159 --> 00:33:01.079 But I have also written that up. for 00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:03.979 those who would just want to read a sort of about the. 00:33:03.979 --> 00:33:06.899 Interview and I guess the argument 00:33:06.899 --> 00:33:10.279 often with video is that's where younger people are that's what 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:12.999 the argument I always hear if I'm talking to people 00:33:12.999 --> 00:33:15.919 if I'm going to conferences I think. 00:33:15.919 --> 00:33:18.659 That's a bit of a blunt instrument but it I think 00:33:18.659 --> 00:33:22.439 demograph if you look to numbers it must be true but it. 00:33:22.439 --> 00:33:25.219 Does worry me though so sites like yours rivals like. 00:33:25.219 --> 00:33:27.899 Conservative home I kind of think politics home is a 00:33:27.899 --> 00:33:31.739 bit of a direct rival of yours maybe Huffington Post those 00:33:31.739 --> 00:33:34.979 kind of sites I think 00:33:34.979 --> 00:33:38.439 they are important to a media environment you and 00:33:38.439 --> 00:33:41.479 I know for years spent our whole time jumping between 00:33:41.479 --> 00:33:44.479 these sites reading them you're looking 00:33:44.479 --> 00:33:48.419 at me like to say you still do um you 00:33:48.419 --> 00:33:53.259 know I run a site that's based on the written like written political 00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:56.159 analysis and reporting I think is really important 00:33:56.159 --> 00:33:59.579 I think you can express things in a 00:33:59.579 --> 00:34:03.179 way with when you're writing a piece that 00:34:03.179 --> 00:34:05.839 you can't if you're banging out a video that you 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.619 have on tiktok that you have to clear the minute hurdle to make 00:34:08.619 --> 00:34:11.379 some money with but you don't want it to be too long so people 00:34:11.379 --> 00:34:14.079 will stop watching do you 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:17.119 know what i mean i think it is a different way of getting into things 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:20.599 yeah i think that 00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:23.779 again it's it's it's never 00:34:23.779 --> 00:34:26.579 been either or for me or for you I mean you and 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:30.059 I have podcasted for years yeah um which 00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:33.799 is not a written format sure um 00:34:33.799 --> 00:34:39.839 and then we both go away and we write things either we write things and then 00:34:39.839 --> 00:34:44.539 we talk about what inspired them on the podcast or we write things because an 00:34:44.539 --> 00:34:50.339 idea has been sparked within our discussion um so a piece of analysis that I 00:34:50.339 --> 00:34:52.139 write might take several hours. 00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:57.039 Because i'll kind of have a thought think about 00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.919 how to write it best craft it go 00:34:59.919 --> 00:35:03.699 away think about it a video 00:35:03.699 --> 00:35:10.399 that i make will be like one stream of consciousness um and they're both valid 00:35:10.399 --> 00:35:14.159 ways of communicating and thinking they're just different ways of communicating 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:21.019 and thinking And I think that success is in doing the right one at the right 00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:22.079 time for the right thing. 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:27.780 Right. Yeah. So a video of your live event is appropriate. Yeah. 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:33.940 You don't, you know, a written, a write up of a press conference or an interview 00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:36.780 you've done with someone is more appropriate. 00:35:38.040 --> 00:35:40.860 Well, I mean, they'll both be available. Yeah. 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:47.640 I'm just conscious that sites like this that were so important are losing something. 00:35:48.120 --> 00:35:51.480 And, you know, whether I agree with the stuff on the site or not. 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.660 Do you know what I mean? There was that world of blogging. 00:35:55.460 --> 00:35:59.520 I mean, I banged on about this before, about sort of the return of blogging 00:35:59.520 --> 00:36:05.080 and why I think that's important as a form of writing and thinking and discussing ideas. 00:36:05.080 --> 00:36:08.160 All right I wonder do you see 00:36:08.160 --> 00:36:11.000 a role for that you know you have a 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:13.940 site that's well read within a certain 00:36:13.940 --> 00:36:16.900 community and niche that is connecting to 00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:20.140 people that support the government and so 00:36:20.140 --> 00:36:23.140 there is an importance in that and keeping that form 00:36:23.140 --> 00:36:29.440 um yeah I 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.320 again I just come back to the idea that 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:36.140 I'm not going to make a forced choice right um 00:36:36.140 --> 00:36:39.980 as we move iteratively into 00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:48.280 doing more things like online events or more video content um that is not a 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:53.240 choice to not do the other things that we do it's it's an add-on and we will 00:36:53.240 --> 00:36:57.700 we we are working to find ways to make that work, 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:06.600 will we get a labour list podcast probably not oh um it's not top of my list 00:37:06.600 --> 00:37:13.040 because well I love podcasts as you know um but I feel like the market is a bit saturated. 00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:17.020 And there are a lot of podcasts there 00:37:17.020 --> 00:37:23.420 are an awful lot of she said self-consciously um and I just feel like. 00:37:26.446 --> 00:37:36.626 I think our better offer might be doing more kind of live interactive rather 00:37:36.626 --> 00:37:38.046 than recorded conversation. 00:37:39.026 --> 00:37:44.446 Well, it's very interesting. I wish you personally all the success. 00:37:44.726 --> 00:37:47.866 You seem to be really excited about the things you can build and where things are going. 00:37:48.146 --> 00:37:53.466 Yeah, I am. It's a really exciting time and this is a job that people who know 00:37:53.466 --> 00:37:56.706 me well know that I've wanted for a long time and I'm really excited to get it. 00:37:57.126 --> 00:38:00.226 Well I'm filled for you I'm filled for the people that get to work with you 00:38:00.226 --> 00:38:03.186 still even though I'm no longer one of them. 00:38:05.926 --> 00:38:08.886 Where can people keep up with you around the internet? 00:38:09.306 --> 00:38:13.126 Well the absolute most important thing is they should subscribe to our daily 00:38:13.126 --> 00:38:19.366 newsletter so any story on Labour List you can find the subscription details on there. 00:38:19.946 --> 00:38:23.926 So that's labourlist.org and you personally where are you on social media nowadays? 00:38:24.906 --> 00:38:30.746 I am at Emma Burnell or Emma Burnell underscore on various social media platforms 00:38:30.746 --> 00:38:36.206 but to be honest I barely post anymore you're best off just following my stuff on labelist. 00:38:36.286 --> 00:38:40.826 Yeah you've disappeared rather well I haven't I'm at Charlotte Henry across 00:38:40.826 --> 00:38:44.846 most of the social media platforms although there's a YouTube channel I think is Charlotte Henry, 00:38:45.566 --> 00:38:48.506 obviously I'm at the addition.net for all the 00:38:48.506 --> 00:38:51.346 blogging podcasting newsletter fun I do 00:38:51.346 --> 00:38:54.246 hope you take out a paid subscription and help keep the 00:38:54.246 --> 00:38:57.146 show on the road that is greatly appreciated there's also the 00:38:57.146 --> 00:39:00.406 capacity actually to leave a one-off kind 00:39:00.406 --> 00:39:03.166 of donation a tip as well so more on that i'll 00:39:03.166 --> 00:39:07.386 leave that in the show notes emma thank you so much for coming back and podcasting 00:39:07.386 --> 00:39:11.526 me with me again as i said i do wish you the best of luck and it'll be fun to 00:39:11.526 --> 00:39:17.646 see what trouble you can cause at labor list thank you once again to macpaw 00:39:17.646 --> 00:39:20.566 for sponsoring this show and i'll see you all next week. 00:39:20.720 --> 00:39:29.637 Music.