WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.457 A big thank you to MacPore and their product CleanMyMac for supporting this 00:00:04.457 --> 00:00:06.077 week's episode of The Edition Podcast. 00:00:06.640 --> 00:00:16.720 Music. 00:00:16.177 --> 00:00:20.557 Hello and welcome back to The Edition Podcast. I am, as ever, 00:00:20.717 --> 00:00:22.317 your host, Charlotte Henry. 00:00:22.517 --> 00:00:25.717 And joining me this time once again is my friend and maybe yours, 00:00:26.157 --> 00:00:27.277 James Ball. Hello, James. 00:00:27.817 --> 00:00:30.837 Hi there. Lovely to be back. I'm thrilled to have you back. James is, 00:00:30.937 --> 00:00:38.057 of course, well, a man of many skills and positions even, but he is mainly the 00:00:38.057 --> 00:00:42.037 political editor at not just the New European anymore, but the New World. 00:00:42.377 --> 00:00:47.137 You've gone into the New World. We expanded, yes. We thought everyone likes 00:00:47.137 --> 00:00:50.177 it when England expands into the New World, don't they? Brilliant. 00:00:51.097 --> 00:00:55.657 So, yes, that's the rebranded New European. How's all that going? 00:00:56.297 --> 00:01:01.537 It's going well, actually. I have to say, I still really like the redesign. 00:01:01.917 --> 00:01:07.697 Going from the New European, obviously, it started as a Brexit pop-up newspaper. 00:01:08.317 --> 00:01:11.197 It was only there for four weeks, wasn't it? It was only going to be there for 00:01:11.197 --> 00:01:12.917 four weeks. Nearly a decade later. 00:01:13.417 --> 00:01:17.917 It had this sort of design forethought of something that you throw together 00:01:17.917 --> 00:01:22.817 for four weeks. And so changing to the new world, they actually did things like 00:01:22.817 --> 00:01:26.557 work out a design and a layout and templates. 00:01:26.877 --> 00:01:31.197 And so it actually looks really beautiful now. So it's quite nice, actually. 00:01:31.697 --> 00:01:38.217 The website looks better, of course, but seeing the print project now is actually quite a treat. 00:01:38.417 --> 00:01:41.397 And I haven't got used to the new look yet. So I enjoy that. 00:01:41.657 --> 00:01:45.577 So you write at least one political column a week, don't you, now there? 00:01:45.837 --> 00:01:52.657 I do. I do a magazine feature every week. And at least one online piece. So they keep me busy. 00:01:53.897 --> 00:01:59.917 As they should. And one of those pieces has sort of led us to the story I want 00:01:59.917 --> 00:02:02.137 to start with today. We have a few bits to discuss. 00:02:02.537 --> 00:02:04.357 But I want to talk about... 00:02:05.476 --> 00:02:09.916 This is a slight bizarre one because I don't really cover politics here, not in the pure form. 00:02:10.056 --> 00:02:16.156 But we have to talk about reform, the insurgent right-wing party led by Nigel Farage. 00:02:17.396 --> 00:02:20.756 And, well, they're not a fan of you, James. 00:02:21.496 --> 00:02:27.036 They are not a fan of me. But let's pause and go back to the start of the story. 00:02:27.576 --> 00:02:32.336 Nigel Farage and reform always advocate themselves as defenders of free speech. 00:02:32.336 --> 00:02:37.816 This has included things like speaking out against the online safety bill in 00:02:37.816 --> 00:02:42.076 the UK, which is a topic I want to talk about with you, because I know you've 00:02:42.076 --> 00:02:43.056 covered it quite closely. 00:02:44.256 --> 00:02:47.156 And it's also it's included lots of things. 00:02:47.296 --> 00:02:51.416 So they've been very clear on the, you know, on their free speech stance. 00:02:51.416 --> 00:02:55.456 I should also say Nigel Farage, when he does his many, many media appearances, 00:02:55.796 --> 00:02:58.176 tends to be quite good at taking questions. 00:02:58.356 --> 00:03:04.056 He's there for a very long time, taking things from all sorts of different papers 00:03:04.056 --> 00:03:09.196 and publications and news outlets, and always seems quite open about it. 00:03:09.756 --> 00:03:12.536 And yet, James, pick up the story from here. 00:03:14.296 --> 00:03:18.096 Yes, Reformers had quite a strange week on free speech. 00:03:18.096 --> 00:03:20.996 Um we'll come to some of it later i'm sure but 00:03:20.996 --> 00:03:24.116 they they had lucy connolly on stage who 00:03:24.116 --> 00:03:29.256 of course said um to burn down all of the asylum hotels and went to prison for 00:03:29.256 --> 00:03:35.776 that she tweeted that didn't yes she did uh and attacked the online safety act 00:03:35.776 --> 00:03:40.856 and then welcomed the author of the online safety act nadine dorries into their 00:03:40.856 --> 00:03:43.196 party onto their stage at the same event, 00:03:44.096 --> 00:03:47.936 former media and sports secretary yes a 00:03:47.936 --> 00:03:51.816 little before that they had nigel 00:03:51.816 --> 00:03:54.856 farage flew all the way over to the usa to say 00:03:54.856 --> 00:03:57.596 how much he loved free speech and how much it 00:03:57.596 --> 00:04:02.716 was under threat in in the us and i was just gearing up to cover that i had 00:04:02.716 --> 00:04:08.036 my video link already etc and i got an email from reform withdrawing my credentials 00:04:08.036 --> 00:04:13.896 to attend their party conference um which is a little bit bizarre because I 00:04:13.896 --> 00:04:15.716 had applied all the way back in May. 00:04:16.236 --> 00:04:20.096 Their requirement for media credentials was that you have a UK press card, 00:04:20.276 --> 00:04:24.036 which I have, that you're from a sort of published outlet, which I am. 00:04:25.416 --> 00:04:29.756 And everything had been successfully registered. I was told I was approved. 00:04:29.756 --> 00:04:31.736 I was just waiting for my QR code. 00:04:32.016 --> 00:04:35.956 And then I got a two-line email from the press office saying my credentials 00:04:35.956 --> 00:04:40.516 had been declined exactly as Nigel Farage went to show off how much he loves 00:04:40.516 --> 00:04:43.856 free speech. Do we have an explanation as to why? 00:04:45.302 --> 00:04:48.682 They have offered absolutely no explanation as to why. 00:04:49.122 --> 00:04:52.182 They have been contacted by me for it. 00:04:52.342 --> 00:04:57.582 They have been asked live on the BBC about it. Sarah Pochin was asked and just 00:04:57.582 --> 00:04:59.222 claimed to know nothing about it. 00:04:59.902 --> 00:05:04.962 Nigel Farage was asked about refusing credentials to journalists while under 00:05:04.962 --> 00:05:10.182 oath at Congress and said never in 25 years had he done it, but maybe someone 00:05:10.182 --> 00:05:11.642 else in the party had done it. 00:05:11.642 --> 00:05:15.822 Um i my editor-in-chief 00:05:15.822 --> 00:05:18.742 uh texted farage to ask him about it 00:05:18.742 --> 00:05:24.042 got nothing uh i messaged richard tice about it a deputy leader of reform who 00:05:24.042 --> 00:05:29.722 he and i have dm'd on several occasions in the past uh and he slipped into richard 00:05:29.722 --> 00:05:36.242 tice's dms yes of course i have uh and he blocked my ability to dm when I suggested, 00:05:36.582 --> 00:05:42.162 hey, I hear David Bull, your chair, saying on stage that you are free speech champions. 00:05:42.562 --> 00:05:44.362 Does that mean I can come in then? 00:05:45.142 --> 00:05:52.502 I'm just outside because I went to the conference anyway and I just got blocked from replying. 00:05:52.822 --> 00:05:58.442 So, I mean, they're not only snowflakes in terms of not letting in a critical 00:05:58.442 --> 00:06:03.902 journalist and they are snowflakes in terms that they won't even own the decision. Yeah. 00:06:04.910 --> 00:06:11.530 It's quite bizarre. I am slightly taken aback just because, as I say, I'm trying to be fair. 00:06:11.890 --> 00:06:17.570 Look, as listeners and readers of mine can well gather, my politics is not that 00:06:17.570 --> 00:06:20.910 of the reformed parties, I think it's fair to say. 00:06:21.810 --> 00:06:26.510 But I try to be fair and Farage is very good at taking a wide range of questions. 00:06:26.510 --> 00:06:29.570 But to not let you into the conference 00:06:29.570 --> 00:06:32.990 as a journalist is a bizarre as 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:36.990 a you know as you point out a very legitimately credentialed uh 00:06:36.990 --> 00:06:43.870 journalist is a bizarre approach just because it seems almost self-defeating 00:06:43.870 --> 00:06:49.290 and listeners might be thinking why are you spending this time discussing you 00:06:49.290 --> 00:06:52.910 know going up to Birmingham to cover the conference why are you two talking 00:06:52.910 --> 00:06:55.890 about not going to cover a party that has, what, four, 00:06:56.050 --> 00:06:58.770 five MPs? I lose track of who's quit and who's abandoned. 00:06:59.010 --> 00:07:04.570 Yes, I think they're on four at the moment, but this, depending whether you 00:07:04.570 --> 00:07:06.870 count a suspended MP or not. 00:07:07.090 --> 00:07:12.170 But, I mean, they are polling ahead of any other party. This is the point. 00:07:12.250 --> 00:07:13.290 They're leading the polls. 00:07:13.730 --> 00:07:18.490 Yes, the Liberal Democrats have 72 MPs. They're the third party compared to 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:20.270 reforms four slash five slash, 00:07:20.270 --> 00:07:23.630 you know how many trends on the day but 00:07:23.630 --> 00:07:26.490 as you rightly say reform are 00:07:26.490 --> 00:07:29.590 topping the polls Farage is widely 00:07:29.590 --> 00:07:34.650 considered to be have a real chance of becoming the next prime minister this 00:07:34.650 --> 00:07:41.110 is not like say the Green Party where they only have a couple of MPs but are 00:07:41.110 --> 00:07:48.690 very much not going to be forming a government in any way they're just not polling at that level so. 00:07:49.534 --> 00:07:54.634 It does matter holding reform to account. As it happens, I don't think the media 00:07:54.634 --> 00:07:57.854 is doing a very good job in the way it covers reform, and I might write something 00:07:57.854 --> 00:07:59.074 on this at another point. 00:08:01.534 --> 00:08:07.134 But it is important to go to the conferences, see how things are emerging. 00:08:07.334 --> 00:08:10.894 We're four years away from a general election, so they don't have to present 00:08:10.894 --> 00:08:15.374 a manifesto to you yet, but it's important to work out how this party is growing, 00:08:15.374 --> 00:08:18.234 and they have stopped you doing that. 00:08:18.234 --> 00:08:22.554 Yeah, they want to say that they are a serious party of government. 00:08:23.654 --> 00:08:28.014 Farage wants you to think he could be prime minister, he could run the country. 00:08:28.334 --> 00:08:31.674 He is not just somewhere to dump a protest vote anymore. 00:08:32.094 --> 00:08:36.714 And that means we know their policy on immigration. They're quite clear on it. 00:08:36.934 --> 00:08:40.214 It's very, very different from what Farage has pushed his whole career. 00:08:40.834 --> 00:08:44.594 Farage has moved a long way to the right on that issue but 00:08:44.594 --> 00:08:48.374 he's traditionally been a right-wing libertarian right 00:08:48.374 --> 00:08:51.694 and the party he's trying to lead now is a 00:08:51.694 --> 00:08:54.554 lot more socially conservative a lot of the voters they're 00:08:54.554 --> 00:08:58.374 attracting are a lot more left-wing and so you 00:08:58.374 --> 00:09:01.054 know the line that they were saying at parties we want to be 00:09:01.054 --> 00:09:03.934 the next government and we think we'll be in government by 00:09:03.934 --> 00:09:06.974 2027 not 2029 yes i've 00:09:06.974 --> 00:09:09.654 seen farage say he was asked at one press conference that 00:09:09.654 --> 00:09:12.414 i watched and he said do you really think this government is going 00:09:12.414 --> 00:09:15.294 to this parliament is going to last four years another four 00:09:15.294 --> 00:09:18.714 years yeah um and essentially 00:09:18.714 --> 00:09:21.534 he's he's now saying we are two years away from 00:09:21.534 --> 00:09:24.674 being government now i'd intended 00:09:24.674 --> 00:09:27.354 to go to the conference and look at how much of 00:09:27.354 --> 00:09:30.354 it wasn't immigration i wanted to 00:09:30.354 --> 00:09:33.274 look at what you know what are they saying on health what 00:09:33.274 --> 00:09:36.154 are they saying on education do they have 00:09:36.154 --> 00:09:39.434 much beyond inviting an anti-vaccine 00:09:39.434 --> 00:09:42.394 crank on stage do they have much beyond saying net 00:09:42.394 --> 00:09:45.274 zero is woke do they have anything beyond saying we'll get 00:09:45.274 --> 00:09:49.754 woke out of education you know they want to be judged as a party of government 00:09:49.754 --> 00:09:55.114 so let's do that you know the the thing that smaller parties tend to do the 00:09:55.114 --> 00:09:59.694 lib dems partly but the greens in particular is always say they want more coverage 00:09:59.694 --> 00:10:03.814 they would hate to be covered like a viable party of government because. 00:10:04.674 --> 00:10:07.554 When everyone knows you won't be the next government no one 00:10:07.554 --> 00:10:11.534 really bothers kicking apart your policies and none 00:10:11.534 --> 00:10:16.334 of the none of these things tend to add up the Lib Dems sort of do a little 00:10:16.334 --> 00:10:20.814 bit but not really the Greens last manifesto was completely insane and wouldn't 00:10:20.814 --> 00:10:25.034 have worked at all but there's no point saying that because no everyone knows 00:10:25.034 --> 00:10:29.614 they won't have to do it now UKIP was always one of those parties where. 00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:34.480 They weren't going to be the government, so it didn't matter. Reform, it matters. 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:38.560 And crucially, it matters how they treat journalists now when they're on the 00:10:38.560 --> 00:10:45.440 way up, because if they're willing to shut out critical journalists now, and yes, I'm lefty. 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:52.580 Yes, I work for a pro-EU newspaper, but I also write for The Spectator, 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:54.780 for The Sunday Times, for The Telegraph. 00:10:54.940 --> 00:10:59.560 These are not radical leftist Marxist newspapers. I write for The Observer, for The Guardian. 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:07.980 I am not an active subscriber to Marxism or a revolutionary communist. 00:11:07.980 --> 00:11:16.020 I am a mainstream political journalist and it is absolutely ludicrous for a 00:11:16.020 --> 00:11:21.380 party that says it's serious about free speech to refuse to credential people like me. 00:11:21.540 --> 00:11:24.940 It also makes them look like complete cowards. 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:29.180 I mean, you know, yes, OK, I'm six foot four nearly. 00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:35.840 I'm not exactly an imposing figure. I mean, having spent many an occasion in 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:38.860 your presence, sweetheart. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.060 Yeah. Yeah. Look, if we had a fight, you would deck me. 00:11:43.760 --> 00:11:45.240 You're not that scary. 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.980 No, I'm five foot tall. Like, what do they think I could do in the conference? 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:53.660 But also, what do they think they could do shutting out? 00:11:53.760 --> 00:11:58.720 Like, I am still in my 30s, I will stress, I'm not an old man, 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.420 But I've done journalism for a while. 00:12:01.780 --> 00:12:06.920 And so to make a point, I went up to Birmingham. They're hosting in the NEC. 00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:11.000 Which is a major venue, by the way. It's quite a huge venue for them to be able 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.040 to fill out and have this conference. Well, they had one hall in it. 00:12:14.260 --> 00:12:16.740 They had a very large hall in it. Yeah, it's quite. 00:12:17.060 --> 00:12:20.860 But there was a hall just around the corner that had a VTuber conference. 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:25.020 Right. And so from my vantage spot, I could see all of these sort of young, 00:12:25.020 --> 00:12:28.240 pierced goth queer and often gender 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.000 queer sort of teenagers looking very puzzled at 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.360 the reform guys and i mean that's an incredible image i've 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:37.380 got there between the two rooms oh it 00:12:37.380 --> 00:12:40.140 it was it was quite pleasing and i think a lot of them missed it 00:12:40.140 --> 00:12:43.240 because they weren't where i was but i basically there's there's 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.260 a weather spoons just outside the cordon for the reform 00:12:46.260 --> 00:12:49.220 bit so i got a table of the weather spoons and grabbed 00:12:49.220 --> 00:12:52.100 people coming in and out um and we 00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:58.460 also we we had someone a freelancer go in the hall for us uh and still attend 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:04.340 events and so between paid and unpaid spies going in the hall listening to people 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:07.560 as they were going in and out and talking to people as they went in and out 00:13:07.560 --> 00:13:11.680 we still covered the conference you know it's it's pointless. 00:13:13.525 --> 00:13:17.405 It's silly that we had to do that. And I resent having to do that. 00:13:17.525 --> 00:13:21.845 And I particularly resent them trying to pretend that they care about free speech 00:13:21.845 --> 00:13:24.005 at all when they act like that. 00:13:24.565 --> 00:13:31.685 I mean, their stance is that I'm going to make them look bad or I'm going to be unfair. 00:13:32.025 --> 00:13:36.265 And they made my job for me very easy because they made themselves look bad 00:13:36.265 --> 00:13:42.085 by banning me. because you can't sincerely say they care about free speech and 00:13:42.085 --> 00:13:43.585 have them ban critical journalists. 00:13:43.985 --> 00:13:48.085 I have to say, we're not... I don't need to be unfair. I don't have to say anything dodgy. 00:13:49.025 --> 00:13:53.545 They did it for me. Yeah, and also I have to say, I was quite taken aback as 00:13:53.545 --> 00:13:58.545 this all developed and you started explaining what had happened because, 00:13:58.545 --> 00:14:00.785 you know, they didn't stop The Guardian going in. 00:14:01.485 --> 00:14:07.725 No. They didn't stop, you know, all sorts of other publications that are very 00:14:07.725 --> 00:14:08.925 much not reform-supporting. 00:14:08.945 --> 00:14:11.805 It's a very odd position to have taken, particularly, as you say, 00:14:11.845 --> 00:14:15.745 when you've travelled across the Atlantic to tell everyone how much you love 00:14:15.745 --> 00:14:18.805 free speech and what free speech is in danger in the UK. 00:14:20.325 --> 00:14:25.645 He quoted Voltaire in his opening statement at that. 00:14:26.005 --> 00:14:31.225 And then, I mean, very clearly doubled down and stuck with it as well. 00:14:31.225 --> 00:14:36.865 And yeah, as you say, the New World, it's independent owned, it's reader owned. 00:14:37.365 --> 00:14:42.545 It's very much punching down. This isn't him banning the BBC on the statement of principle. 00:14:43.745 --> 00:14:49.105 He banned the independent outlet. And I think that looks particularly crappy. 00:14:49.865 --> 00:14:54.125 I mean, our readers have been very good and we've got some new subscribers as 00:14:54.125 --> 00:14:56.825 a result of it. And we're very glad of their support as well. 00:14:57.245 --> 00:15:00.785 So again, I don't think it's done anything good for them. 00:15:01.225 --> 00:15:08.205 But it is wrong. It is stupid tactically for them, but it is also wrong for parties to do this. 00:15:08.345 --> 00:15:11.665 It is wrong. And I want to pick up on another issue that's been going on with 00:15:11.665 --> 00:15:14.745 reform, because you weren't the first journalist they've lashed out at. 00:15:15.185 --> 00:15:19.045 There has been issues in local government as well, because for listeners that 00:15:19.045 --> 00:15:21.185 don't know, you know, my friends in the US, 00:15:21.665 --> 00:15:25.945 reform swept through at the last local elections and picked up a lot of councillors 00:15:25.945 --> 00:15:30.805 and took control of a number of councils, significant councils. 00:15:31.225 --> 00:15:34.965 And they've had bust-ups with the local media as well, haven't they, banning some of them? 00:15:35.644 --> 00:15:41.204 They have, yes. And this is Nottinghamshire is really where the issue's been. 00:15:41.544 --> 00:15:48.884 And their local outlet has essentially been banned from going to any council 00:15:48.884 --> 00:15:52.824 events, from approaching any councillors, from getting any kind of communication. 00:15:53.404 --> 00:15:59.164 And most areas now, if they've got one local paper left that does any council 00:15:59.164 --> 00:16:00.924 or watchdog journalism, they're lucky. 00:16:01.584 --> 00:16:05.204 Almost nowhere's got two. Most places don't even have one. 00:16:05.644 --> 00:16:11.484 And so a lack of engagement with a local newspaper is just incredibly bad for 00:16:11.484 --> 00:16:15.024 democracy in the region, is incredibly bad for accountability. 00:16:15.664 --> 00:16:20.964 And again, it's just not really acceptable when you are running public services 00:16:20.964 --> 00:16:23.524 worth tens or hundreds of millions. 00:16:23.644 --> 00:16:26.284 I mean, Nottingham Shore is not a small little dot on the map. 00:16:26.864 --> 00:16:30.564 No. And again, they're trying to come up with various excuses. 00:16:30.764 --> 00:16:33.164 They're trying to say it's about a particular journalist, etc. 00:16:33.504 --> 00:16:38.584 There's always an excuse. and in this case they're nonsense they are just not 00:16:38.584 --> 00:16:42.544 remotely living up to something that they've chosen to make one of their central 00:16:42.544 --> 00:16:46.044 values and they need to be careful on this as well because. 00:16:46.884 --> 00:16:49.884 They made the very questionable decision to put 00:16:49.884 --> 00:16:52.804 lucy connolly on stage uh at their 00:16:52.804 --> 00:16:55.744 party conference and they can say that 00:16:55.744 --> 00:16:59.504 that's about free speech and it's not about her very 00:16:59.504 --> 00:17:02.304 extreme views and you can agree or 00:17:02.304 --> 00:17:05.144 disagree with her sentence but she was 00:17:05.144 --> 00:17:09.824 very very clearly legally advised that pleading guilty would mean going to jail 00:17:09.824 --> 00:17:17.064 and she pled guilty and the wording of the tweet is not ambiguous she said they 00:17:17.064 --> 00:17:21.584 could burn down I don't want to get too down this way but essentially you can 00:17:21.584 --> 00:17:24.244 say that the sentence was right or wrong, 00:17:24.484 --> 00:17:29.924 I think almost everyone would say the views in the post were repellent and. 00:17:31.071 --> 00:17:37.351 If you are posting on free speech, you can say, well, we had her on stage as a free speech issue. 00:17:37.731 --> 00:17:41.571 If it starts to look like you don't really care very much about free speech, 00:17:41.571 --> 00:17:45.611 if you're banning local journalists from covering your councils, 00:17:45.611 --> 00:17:47.631 if you're banning journalists from doing that, 00:17:48.011 --> 00:17:52.951 people will start to ask, do you care about free speech or do you support the 00:17:52.951 --> 00:17:54.471 views that were in that post? 00:17:54.911 --> 00:17:58.791 And I think they start to get themselves in some very tricky territory on this 00:17:58.791 --> 00:18:02.751 stuff. I don't wish to be dismissive of your plight, but in many ways, 00:18:02.771 --> 00:18:07.471 I'm more offended by what's happened in Nottinghamshire and with the local journalists. Yes, so am I. 00:18:08.011 --> 00:18:12.731 With a local, you know, the head of a local council, quite a significant one. 00:18:12.771 --> 00:18:15.911 I don't know what Nottinghamshire County Council's budget is offhand, 00:18:15.971 --> 00:18:18.631 but it will be fairly hefty in relative terms. 00:18:19.131 --> 00:18:24.431 And for someone like that newly appointed to local government to start doing 00:18:24.431 --> 00:18:28.111 that really is very dangerous for local democracy. 00:18:28.111 --> 00:18:32.871 And you know you and I who write about the media and cover the media and discuss 00:18:32.871 --> 00:18:39.851 the media a lot always always always highlight the plight and the death of local journalism. 00:18:40.991 --> 00:18:46.171 And for someone to use their political power to contribute to that really is 00:18:46.171 --> 00:18:52.471 deeply concerning yep I absolutely agree I can get around silly bans on events 00:18:52.471 --> 00:18:55.911 I think local journalism that's trying to hold a council to account. 00:18:56.111 --> 00:18:59.751 I've just looked it up. It's 47 million of spending a year. 00:18:59.951 --> 00:19:01.991 And that's the provider of your 00:19:01.991 --> 00:19:05.991 local services. It covers very essential services for vulnerable people. 00:19:06.311 --> 00:19:11.571 It does all sorts of things. That is a real threat. And it's a threat that people 00:19:11.571 --> 00:19:16.651 are doing while they are taxpayer funded, while they are acting as public servants. 00:19:17.171 --> 00:19:21.131 And so that is the worst of it. I will agree, but all of it's bad. 00:19:21.291 --> 00:19:22.671 They shouldn't do it. Yeah. 00:19:23.111 --> 00:19:27.231 Well, I want to move on from this and we need to talk about uh the new series 00:19:27.231 --> 00:19:32.931 of succession i mean uh the story around the murdochs uh but i want to thank our sponsor first. 00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:38.980 This week's show is sponsored by MacPore and their fantastic product, CleanMyMac. 00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:42.260 I'm thrilled they're supporting the show because this is a product I know, 00:19:42.600 --> 00:19:47.000 love, and that has helped me keep my machines running smoothly for a number of years now. 00:19:47.620 --> 00:19:50.940 CleanMyMac is your ultimate solution for Mac control and care, 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:56.560 notarised by Apple and meticulously crafted by MacPore, a leading macOS and 00:19:56.560 --> 00:19:58.180 iOS software development company. 00:19:58.360 --> 00:20:02.780 It was featured in the Mac App Store shortlist of the best 25 apps for 2025 00:20:02.780 --> 00:20:06.240 and, as I say, is a particular favourite of mine. 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.020 CleanMyMac has a new cloud cleanup feature that connects to your accounts on 00:20:12.020 --> 00:20:14.340 iCloud, OneDrive and Google Drive. 00:20:14.520 --> 00:20:18.840 It scans the clouds to find large space wasters, synced and unsynced files, 00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:21.760 both in cloud storage and on device. 00:20:22.020 --> 00:20:25.240 All scanning happens locally, so your data stays very safe. 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.740 To use this fantastic new feature, all you need is to be logged in on the corresponding 00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:32.880 service on their desktop application. 00:20:33.380 --> 00:20:38.280 You can then remove files from your disk or evict them solely from your cloud 00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:42.340 storage, instantly getting you some free gigabytes. If you change your mind, 00:20:42.520 --> 00:20:43.840 you can restore the files back. 00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:48.840 Paying attention to your cloud storage is beneficial both for your mental health and your wallet. 00:20:48.980 --> 00:20:52.880 So get rid of those files that are weighing you down. Get tidy today. 00:20:53.180 --> 00:21:01.480 Try seven days free and use my code ADDITION for 20% off at clnmy.com slash the edition. 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:09.400 That is clnmy.com slash t-h-e-a-d-d-i-t-i-o-n. 00:21:09.540 --> 00:21:13.780 Thanks to MacPaw with their product Clean My Mac for supporting this show. 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:15.580 Welcome back to the edition podcast. 00:21:15.840 --> 00:21:19.440 I'm Charlotte Henry and I'm here with the New World's political editor, James Ball. 00:21:20.540 --> 00:21:26.960 Cue the succession theme tune. we seem to have a settlement in Murdoch land. 00:21:28.461 --> 00:21:31.421 We do indeed. Thought of. 00:21:31.861 --> 00:21:39.941 There's essentially, when Roops had two extra children in his 70s with Wendy Deng, his third wife, 00:21:40.181 --> 00:21:47.201 there was a mini succession battle then because the four older Murdoch children 00:21:47.201 --> 00:21:51.001 didn't want their future control of the company being diluted. 00:21:51.361 --> 00:21:57.541 And so they eventually all agreed to have a trust where they would split it financially six ways. 00:21:57.541 --> 00:22:00.641 But the older four children would have the voting 00:22:00.641 --> 00:22:03.581 control and this was all agreed this 00:22:03.581 --> 00:22:07.821 was fine for decades until basically they 00:22:07.821 --> 00:22:11.581 kind of all fell out and also turns 00:22:11.581 --> 00:22:14.561 out Rupert made it clear that he thought 00:22:14.561 --> 00:22:17.501 there should be one successor not a committee 00:22:17.501 --> 00:22:20.261 of four and he also made it 00:22:20.261 --> 00:22:23.481 clear that that should be Lachlan and Lachlan 00:22:23.481 --> 00:22:26.841 tried to sort of split out 00:22:26.841 --> 00:22:29.841 buy out his siblings for 00:22:29.841 --> 00:22:32.681 cheap and he bid too low 00:22:32.681 --> 00:22:38.061 and so they took him to court and the whole thing turned into this big fight 00:22:38.061 --> 00:22:46.441 that also started to pretend it had these huge stakes around does this you know 00:22:46.441 --> 00:22:50.921 James was very critical of Fox News and its relationship with Trump. 00:22:51.321 --> 00:22:55.081 He seemed to have Elizabeth and Prudence on his side with that. 00:22:55.361 --> 00:23:00.601 And so there was this big thing on, well, is this about them not wanting to 00:23:00.601 --> 00:23:04.241 let Lackland turn Fox News into a Trump mouthpiece, etc. 00:23:04.961 --> 00:23:07.721 And I think there is a bit of politics around that, though. 00:23:08.221 --> 00:23:11.781 I mean, James has been doing this for a while, been really concerned about Fox 00:23:11.781 --> 00:23:15.861 News and stepped away and sort of trying to do penitence, hasn't he, 00:23:15.901 --> 00:23:17.161 with setting up other things? 00:23:17.161 --> 00:23:21.561 And well he's done a bit of a sackcloth and ashes routine there's a very long 00:23:21.561 --> 00:23:26.721 very good profile from february in the atlantic but i do suggest reading that 00:23:26.721 --> 00:23:31.021 back today as i have i've i've just written on all of this for for the ipaper 00:23:31.021 --> 00:23:36.821 right um he has just taken 1.1 billion dollars and walked away. 00:23:37.981 --> 00:23:41.401 Uh and so right for some yes and 00:23:41.401 --> 00:23:44.481 so essentially lachlan has won he now 00:23:44.481 --> 00:23:47.541 has all of the controlling shares it's still 00:23:47.541 --> 00:23:51.141 got a financial split with wendy deng's children but 00:23:51.141 --> 00:23:53.961 each of the other murdoch children walks away 00:23:53.961 --> 00:23:57.101 with 1.1 billion and absolutely no 00:23:57.101 --> 00:24:04.081 assurances on output etc so i think it was probably good framing and a good 00:24:04.081 --> 00:24:08.541 way during the case to say that there was high principle at stake but as ever 00:24:08.541 --> 00:24:14.361 it always with the murdochs it comes down to money and it's come down to money here, 00:24:15.021 --> 00:24:20.141 I mean it's all quite bizarre I find this whole thing bizarre because you're 00:24:20.141 --> 00:24:26.481 talking about I mean essentially these are kids arguing in court about their dad dying. 00:24:28.515 --> 00:24:33.115 Yes, very, very publicly about their dad died. I mean, he is 93. 00:24:33.795 --> 00:24:39.655 94, I think. You know, but 94. And he has been very personally involved in this 00:24:39.655 --> 00:24:42.135 case, but they're not on speaking terms. 00:24:43.335 --> 00:24:48.795 You know, this will very much taint it. This is the worst kind of family psychodrama. 00:24:48.795 --> 00:24:52.435 And as you say, usually you have the inheritance battle after dad's dead. 00:24:53.295 --> 00:24:56.995 But Rupert Murdoch has got to live through and watch this one. 00:24:56.995 --> 00:25:01.155 But yes, and he is very much alive and kicking. 00:25:01.675 --> 00:25:04.035 He's down in Westminster this very day. 00:25:04.815 --> 00:25:07.555 Yes, there's a committee. I don't know why he's in Westminster, 00:25:07.555 --> 00:25:08.855 but he's been seen in Parliament. 00:25:10.455 --> 00:25:14.275 Well, I think the heads of the BBC on the day we were talking are at the Culture, 00:25:14.395 --> 00:25:15.155 Media and Sport Committee. 00:25:16.275 --> 00:25:20.455 Yes, but I don't think he was appearing in front because that was the bad of 00:25:20.455 --> 00:25:23.315 you. We know he likes that committee. He does. 00:25:23.575 --> 00:25:26.195 He had the most humble day of his life there. Stop it. 00:25:28.415 --> 00:25:32.315 But there is something fascinating about how this will all play out. 00:25:32.615 --> 00:25:35.755 Well, first of all, I think the fact that it's happening while Rupert is still 00:25:35.755 --> 00:25:40.375 very much alive and, you know, compass mentis as we understand it and all the rest of it. 00:25:42.181 --> 00:25:45.281 Really underlines his absolute control freakery 00:25:45.281 --> 00:25:48.961 yes i mean he bought 00:25:48.961 --> 00:25:54.921 out his own siblings when his father died uh he rupert is was one of four children 00:25:54.921 --> 00:26:00.041 i think he's the only uh living one now but um he essentially his dad had a 00:26:00.041 --> 00:26:05.021 small australian newspaper empire uh can you call it an empire when it's small 00:26:05.021 --> 00:26:08.861 um but there was only he started with just one paper didn't he rupert yeah Yeah, 00:26:09.101 --> 00:26:15.201 I think there were a couple at that point, but he essentially got total control over what he had. 00:26:15.721 --> 00:26:18.041 Got rid of the siblings and then built from it. 00:26:18.341 --> 00:26:23.641 And it does suggest that he doesn't trust Lachlan's ability to do that after he dies. 00:26:23.941 --> 00:26:28.961 And so he's essentially engineered the same thing happening for, 00:26:29.141 --> 00:26:35.341 you know, the final successor, assuming there isn't some last minute twist in all of this. 00:26:35.741 --> 00:26:38.621 You know, there's still time. but as it 00:26:38.621 --> 00:26:41.741 stands it seems that Rupert's had 00:26:41.741 --> 00:26:45.161 to do this for Lachlan which probably isn't 00:26:45.161 --> 00:26:48.561 the most edifying look it doesn't necessarily suggest 00:26:48.561 --> 00:26:53.421 that Lachlan will take what he gets which is a much much smaller business than 00:26:53.421 --> 00:26:57.941 it was 10 years ago as well well that's absolutely right because Rupert very 00:26:57.941 --> 00:27:02.721 astutely is cashed in on all the efforts pretty much at the right time yeah 00:27:02.721 --> 00:27:06.601 he He sold off the movie studio to Disney at a very good time. 00:27:06.781 --> 00:27:11.781 It was a good time to consolidate that out. He doesn't own Sky anymore in the 00:27:11.781 --> 00:27:13.481 UK. That's gone to Comcast. 00:27:13.721 --> 00:27:20.161 And so we are really talking about a big publishing house. They own HarperCollins still. 00:27:20.461 --> 00:27:27.341 And then the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, the Sunday Times, the Times, the Sun. 00:27:27.561 --> 00:27:32.441 And the Sun is not the asset that it once was. the times and sunday times are 00:27:32.441 --> 00:27:39.441 still profitable they are still prestigious the sun loses money and it doesn't 00:27:39.441 --> 00:27:43.781 have much influence now oh i'm not sure i agree with that but they've still 00:27:43.781 --> 00:27:46.601 got fox news okay what's the last sun front page you can remember. 00:27:48.816 --> 00:27:53.976 Good point, well made. Yeah, it is not relevant anymore and it's not read anymore. 00:27:54.516 --> 00:27:58.596 So just because I can't remember a front page off the top of my head on a Tuesday 00:27:58.596 --> 00:28:02.216 afternoon. Yeah, I would push this. It doesn't mean it's not influential. 00:28:02.516 --> 00:28:04.616 The Times and the Sunday Times still matter. 00:28:05.256 --> 00:28:08.856 The New York Post matters a little bit. The Wall Street Journal and Fox News 00:28:08.856 --> 00:28:10.856 are immensely important. 00:28:12.056 --> 00:28:16.476 The Sun, I think now, is I think it's fine while Rupert's alive. 00:28:16.476 --> 00:28:19.136 I would be very nervous afterwards if I were them. 00:28:19.776 --> 00:28:25.116 So you're telling me you don't believe, like, for example, during the general 00:28:25.116 --> 00:28:26.536 election campaign last year? 00:28:27.796 --> 00:28:31.376 Yeah, the sun doesn't matter. I'm not sure I agree with that. 00:28:31.416 --> 00:28:33.676 I would spend no time on it anymore. 00:28:34.416 --> 00:28:37.916 YouTube matters. X matters, and I wish it didn't. 00:28:38.156 --> 00:28:42.936 The sun, it just doesn't have the numbers anymore. It doesn't have the juice. 00:28:43.136 --> 00:28:48.076 It can't set the news agenda anymore. or I really don't think it matters. 00:28:48.616 --> 00:28:53.556 I understand your point about, you know, we used to always be able to remember 00:28:53.556 --> 00:28:56.816 those big front page stories and, you know. 00:28:57.616 --> 00:29:01.836 Those famous big hit, you know, the scoopy investigations and the this and the 00:29:01.836 --> 00:29:03.996 that. I totally accept that. 00:29:04.576 --> 00:29:09.536 I do still think in Westminster people are worrying about it. 00:29:09.956 --> 00:29:13.796 Oh, yes, but people in Westminster are idiots. and 00:29:13.796 --> 00:29:16.756 also they're all in their fifth says political editor james ball 00:29:16.756 --> 00:29:19.736 yes i don't necessarily exclude myself we fuss 00:29:19.736 --> 00:29:23.096 about all of the wrong things you know most most political 00:29:23.096 --> 00:29:26.916 media matters much much less than it did newspapers matter 00:29:26.916 --> 00:29:29.676 to the extent that what we 00:29:29.676 --> 00:29:32.936 write still input frames what influencers 00:29:32.936 --> 00:29:36.336 cover and still frames what broadcasters cover 00:29:36.336 --> 00:29:39.216 but our direct influence is dwindling and 00:29:39.216 --> 00:29:42.376 dwindling and dwindling and the sun doesn't really influence 00:29:42.376 --> 00:29:45.996 even what the bbc's headlines are anymore i 00:29:45.996 --> 00:29:48.776 just don't it's not got the direct audience it's not 00:29:48.776 --> 00:29:53.716 got the political clout it doesn't really try to have it anymore and it doesn't 00:29:53.716 --> 00:29:58.616 make money the times of the sunday times make money the sun loses it hand over 00:29:58.616 --> 00:30:04.976 fist it it is a very difficult property now because it doesn't have the prestige 00:30:04.976 --> 00:30:08.316 it doesn't have the money and i don't think it's got the juice anymore. 00:30:09.816 --> 00:30:15.416 And five years ago i'd have felt terrified saying that yeah i mean it's and 00:30:15.416 --> 00:30:21.116 i don't fascinating i you know i've got the sun website up in front of me and 00:30:21.116 --> 00:30:28.316 there's you know a bunch of royal stories something taking a swing at the bbc some celebrity stuff. 00:30:29.957 --> 00:30:32.817 I mean, online, there's no doubt that the mail is more significant. 00:30:33.297 --> 00:30:35.217 Yes, although diminishing now, I think. 00:30:36.417 --> 00:30:41.257 I think the mail still matters, but I don't think it's what it used to be. 00:30:42.197 --> 00:30:46.617 We've gone down a tangent here, but I do think it's an interesting one. I think it's a great one. 00:30:46.857 --> 00:30:51.977 And I, yeah, we can have a discussion about the mail and payables another time. 00:30:51.977 --> 00:31:00.837 But I think what's happened with the Murdoch empire is, well, 00:31:00.897 --> 00:31:05.537 first of all, it is typical of what's happening in the media as a whole. 00:31:06.057 --> 00:31:10.217 A fascinating thing, and I pick up a bit on it in my forthcoming book, 00:31:10.977 --> 00:31:16.457 Streaming Wars, out on October the 3rd in the UK, out on October 28th in the US. Thank you very much. 00:31:18.317 --> 00:31:24.097 They've never really done digital, the Murdochs. No, they've cried a couple of times. 00:31:24.797 --> 00:31:29.857 They owned MySpace. They owned MySpace, tried Talk TV here in the UK. 00:31:31.957 --> 00:31:39.297 They've stuck with very traditional media businesses and done very well from it. 00:31:39.577 --> 00:31:45.337 The Wall Street Journal is a good website and a good app, but it's a very niche sort of product. 00:31:45.477 --> 00:31:47.697 It's not their main area. 00:31:48.037 --> 00:31:51.877 But yes, otherwise, they are analogue in a digital world. 00:31:51.977 --> 00:31:54.777 But doing well from it they are 00:31:54.777 --> 00:31:57.797 still making money they still have influence like there's 00:31:57.797 --> 00:32:00.477 no real there's a bit of a fox news streaming service but 00:32:00.477 --> 00:32:03.717 that's not really what gets people in no but again 00:32:03.717 --> 00:32:08.417 they do have to look at it because these all have running clocks you know fox 00:32:08.417 --> 00:32:13.497 news makes its money from cable carriage fees right and those that that is on 00:32:13.497 --> 00:32:19.817 its way out it probably has another 10 15 years of vast profitability but almost 00:32:19.817 --> 00:32:21.817 everything they do is diminishing. 00:32:22.097 --> 00:32:26.797 Yeah. And it's interesting that they don't really seem to have a path out of that. 00:32:27.697 --> 00:32:30.257 Well, this was why I wanted to get to this, which was... 00:32:31.505 --> 00:32:38.005 Will Lachlan have the answer to that? Well, he's the chief exec right now. And no, he doesn't. 00:32:38.905 --> 00:32:44.105 Or if he does, he's keeping it so secret that he doesn't do it when his dad's alive. 00:32:44.305 --> 00:32:48.425 But that was really what my question was. But I don't think he does. 00:32:48.685 --> 00:32:52.105 I think if there was a play, he would have managed it somewhere. 00:32:53.125 --> 00:32:58.825 Because what you try and do in these things is you build it in Australia or you build it in the UK. 00:32:59.345 --> 00:33:02.685 You show that it works and you bring it across to america so 00:33:02.685 --> 00:33:05.765 that's always been the way of it and they don't 00:33:05.765 --> 00:33:09.065 seem to have a play they don't seem to have a tactic 00:33:09.065 --> 00:33:11.925 they've got some very nice media brands and 00:33:11.925 --> 00:33:14.645 properties i think there will be a 00:33:14.645 --> 00:33:18.025 place for the journal they will be a place for the times and sunday times for 00:33:18.025 --> 00:33:22.305 a long time yeah um they of course have this bizarre lawsuit with trump but 00:33:22.305 --> 00:33:26.985 i think they'll win or settle it quite early fox news clearly has a lot of juice 00:33:26.985 --> 00:33:33.225 but they need plans to keep them relevant for the 21st century and I'm not sure they really have them. 00:33:34.285 --> 00:33:37.965 It's going to be fascinating to see because I 00:33:37.965 --> 00:33:40.785 think we now that this is settled I think 00:33:40.785 --> 00:33:44.365 we're going to see Lachlan what 00:33:44.365 --> 00:33:48.525 he wants to do moving forward I think 00:33:48.525 --> 00:33:51.885 he will feel now like he has more freedom to 00:33:51.885 --> 00:33:55.665 do some of the things that are in his head or he 00:33:55.665 --> 00:33:59.105 can certainly use it as an excuse for not having done it before so 00:33:59.105 --> 00:34:02.045 i think the next phase of this is going to be very very 00:34:02.045 --> 00:34:06.225 interesting as well to watch yeah yes 00:34:06.225 --> 00:34:10.645 i think it's going to be extremely extremely 00:34:10.645 --> 00:34:17.085 interesting times in all areas but i think he's got no excuses not to set out 00:34:17.085 --> 00:34:22.825 his stall now yeah he is the clear he is the clear sort of controlling driving 00:34:22.825 --> 00:34:26.285 force behind it now and he needs to demonstrate that. 00:34:27.965 --> 00:34:31.725 All I can think of is each different episode of Succession. I'm really sorry. 00:34:31.885 --> 00:34:34.205 I know it's so trite and obvious to say... 00:34:35.592 --> 00:34:39.112 But that's all I can think of. I mean, I've had the theme music going through 00:34:39.112 --> 00:34:41.652 my head the entire morning. Exactly. Every different episode. 00:34:42.272 --> 00:34:45.892 James, I'm so pleased that you joined me to unpack all of this. 00:34:46.012 --> 00:34:48.352 It's been great fun. Where can people keep up with all your work? 00:34:51.152 --> 00:34:54.052 So they can look me up in The New World. 00:34:54.272 --> 00:35:00.492 They can follow my sub stack, which is jamesrball.com. I am at that on Blue Sky. 00:35:00.812 --> 00:35:03.772 Or they can just Google me. I tend to be around. I'm hard to miss. 00:35:03.772 --> 00:35:08.352 You can't yeah six foot four writes a lot you'll find him, 00:35:10.312 --> 00:35:13.272 I'm at Charlotte A Henry across social media 00:35:13.272 --> 00:35:16.932 of course if you're listening to this I hope you are subscribed at 00:35:16.932 --> 00:35:19.932 the edition.net it's just a mere 50 quid 00:35:19.932 --> 00:35:22.972 for the year that gets you two newsletters a week 00:35:22.972 --> 00:35:27.732 with everything in it and you can feel good about supporting independent media 00:35:27.732 --> 00:35:31.372 as well what else do you want as I say the book is coming out on October the 00:35:31.372 --> 00:35:36.392 3rd so I hope you will pre-order of that I'll leave some links in the show notes 00:35:36.392 --> 00:35:40.712 as well James thank you once again and I'll see you all next week. 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:49.887 Music.