WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.840 Music. 00:00:09.689 --> 00:00:13.569 Hello and welcome back to the edition podcast. Yeah, it's been a while, 00:00:13.749 --> 00:00:16.469 but you know, it's September. We're starting again. 00:00:17.009 --> 00:00:21.209 I'm really excited for this show, actually, because I have a pal with me. 00:00:21.369 --> 00:00:27.809 I have Jack Kessler, who used to be writing a fantastic newsletter at the Evening 00:00:27.809 --> 00:00:31.509 Standard, or the London Standard, as it's now called here in the UK, 00:00:32.569 --> 00:00:38.109 and is now writing an independent newsletter called Lines to Take, 00:00:38.109 --> 00:00:41.589 which I read every day and is really enjoyable as well. So, Jack, 00:00:41.749 --> 00:00:43.009 thank you very much for joining me. 00:00:44.289 --> 00:00:48.049 Thank you for having me. I'm so pleased to have you here and get to have a chat 00:00:48.049 --> 00:00:53.209 and a catch-up because you've written before in your newsletter about working 00:00:53.209 --> 00:00:54.389 in the civil service or whatever. 00:00:54.709 --> 00:00:58.929 That's not what we're interested on in this podcast. We're interested in the media side. 00:00:59.069 --> 00:01:03.529 So, really, the job you became known for, you won awards for, 00:01:04.289 --> 00:01:08.609 and so on was writing an evening newsletter for the newspaper, 00:01:08.789 --> 00:01:10.349 as I say, now called the London Standard. 00:01:10.609 --> 00:01:13.129 While we were growing up, Jack, it was the London Evening Standard, 00:01:13.309 --> 00:01:15.069 wasn't it? Now it's the London Standard. 00:01:15.649 --> 00:01:21.509 But how, well, first of all, how on earth did you get into that kind of gig? 00:01:21.689 --> 00:01:25.849 Because it's not like the classic beat reporter type gig and then you maybe 00:01:25.849 --> 00:01:27.269 get to write a column or something. 00:01:27.449 --> 00:01:31.849 Like you were sort of entrusted with this newsletter brand every single day. 00:01:33.662 --> 00:01:37.482 Well, it wasn't part of some grand scheme of mine. 00:01:37.722 --> 00:01:41.982 I mean, I was hired at The Standard to be a lead writer. 00:01:44.162 --> 00:01:52.242 Which was great fun. But given the sort of print deadlines at The Standard, 00:01:52.382 --> 00:01:54.942 which at the time was 11 a.m. 00:01:55.082 --> 00:02:02.962 Because just for people not in London, The Standard is London's sort of daily evening newspaper. 00:02:02.962 --> 00:02:05.762 Like you get it on the tube on your way home from work kind of 00:02:05.762 --> 00:02:09.242 vibe so to get a leader column to 00:02:09.242 --> 00:02:12.142 print by that time it 00:02:12.142 --> 00:02:15.102 goes out what's the first time what does the first edition land three o'clock 00:02:15.102 --> 00:02:18.122 or something well we're talking in the in the imperfect tense 00:02:18.122 --> 00:02:21.462 now but it was around four o'clock um 00:02:21.462 --> 00:02:24.222 yes depending on where in the city you were 00:02:24.222 --> 00:02:28.322 but yeah the print deadline was at 11 a.m and obviously you are getting something 00:02:28.322 --> 00:02:35.102 signed off well in advance of that in an in an in an ideal world um so after 00:02:35.102 --> 00:02:41.502 but after you know 10 30 you um need something to do and i was doing various. 00:02:42.162 --> 00:02:44.882 They need to justify paying you for the rest of the 00:02:44.882 --> 00:02:48.162 day yeah and i was doing odd 00:02:48.162 --> 00:02:51.422 bits and then i get an email from emily sheffield 00:02:51.422 --> 00:02:56.022 who was the editor at the time volunteering me 00:02:56.022 --> 00:02:59.662 to be the standard newsletter writer um 00:02:59.662 --> 00:03:02.742 and my initial reaction was i'm sorry what what 00:03:02.742 --> 00:03:09.482 is this uh and it wasn't um overwhelmingly positive mostly because no one likes 00:03:09.482 --> 00:03:15.682 no one likes change no no jack you don't like change okay i don't like change 00:03:15.682 --> 00:03:21.062 i don't like change or how things are which is uh problematic but anyway um. 00:03:22.382 --> 00:03:27.962 And The Standard had this daily newsletter called West End Final, 00:03:28.342 --> 00:03:32.382 named after the paper edition. 00:03:32.822 --> 00:03:38.742 And it was essentially a bunch of links to the stories in the paper and went 00:03:38.742 --> 00:03:39.862 out at around lunchtime, 00:03:40.162 --> 00:03:47.742 which was quite different to what it became, which was my own personal fiefdom 00:03:47.742 --> 00:03:51.282 coming out at four o'clock every day. 00:03:51.282 --> 00:03:54.422 So um that's how it really came 00:03:54.422 --> 00:03:57.262 about which was um like like a lot of things in life 00:03:57.262 --> 00:04:00.082 unplanned um right time and uh 00:04:00.082 --> 00:04:02.962 incredibly fortunate yeah because it grew as 00:04:02.962 --> 00:04:05.862 I say to great success there was a couple of awards you picked up 00:04:05.862 --> 00:04:08.622 that's for that's how we first met actually a couple of years ago 00:04:08.622 --> 00:04:11.602 when we both picked up awards uh I 00:04:11.602 --> 00:04:15.082 mean I don't like to talk about it I know you don't um no 00:04:15.082 --> 00:04:18.222 no we're both deeply modest people we're very modest 00:04:18.222 --> 00:04:21.342 yes so i was obviously pleased to to 00:04:21.342 --> 00:04:24.422 win that but also for ego 00:04:24.422 --> 00:04:27.202 purposes it grew from about i think i took it on 00:04:27.202 --> 00:04:32.642 and it had about 20 000 subscribers and it grew over a few years to 100 000 00:04:32.642 --> 00:04:40.602 which um as i say it makes uh makes you feel pretty good uh because you know 00:04:40.602 --> 00:04:45.082 we're all we're all in this business to ultimately be read and misunderstood 00:04:45.082 --> 00:04:46.502 by as many people as possible. 00:04:47.142 --> 00:04:49.022 And that was a real thrill. 00:04:49.882 --> 00:04:52.522 Yeah, well, I want to talk about the growth of it because what, 00:04:52.742 --> 00:04:57.922 from my perspective as an outsider looking in and from sort of our audience 00:04:57.922 --> 00:05:01.222 of people who are media nerds looking in, 00:05:01.822 --> 00:05:07.162 what seemed to accelerate it is when you went from that group of links named 00:05:07.162 --> 00:05:10.682 after an edition of the paper that you mentioned. 00:05:11.769 --> 00:05:15.189 To really putting your personality on 00:05:15.189 --> 00:05:18.109 it you know it 00:05:18.109 --> 00:05:21.509 became very your own voice didn't it and 00:05:21.509 --> 00:05:24.189 I think that clearly helped with the growth of 00:05:24.189 --> 00:05:26.929 it as well sure um I'll take 00:05:26.929 --> 00:05:29.829 some credit and then I'll explain why it wasn't really 00:05:29.829 --> 00:05:32.569 to do with me but basically for the 00:05:32.569 --> 00:05:35.449 first maybe 18 months two years of doing it there 00:05:35.449 --> 00:05:38.169 was no oversight no one 00:05:38.169 --> 00:05:41.189 knew what I was doing what I was writing I would get the stuff legal 00:05:41.189 --> 00:05:44.269 checked if I thought it was necessary um but it 00:05:44.269 --> 00:05:47.449 was just total autonomy and it was um lovely 00:05:47.449 --> 00:05:50.329 and uh ridiculous and I'm sure if 00:05:50.329 --> 00:05:53.409 I had done something stupid or legally dodgy 00:05:53.409 --> 00:05:56.209 there would have been 17 layers of bureaucracy placed in front of 00:05:56.209 --> 00:05:59.029 my publish button uh but yeah it was 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:02.069 an opportunity listen I I'm not delivering and 00:06:02.069 --> 00:06:08.349 and it's a it's incredible yeah and and it's the same thing with lines to take 00:06:08.349 --> 00:06:13.429 which is i'm not serving you scoops i'm not providing you with headlines my 00:06:13.429 --> 00:06:19.829 only comparative advantage is the style and that sounds like a bit of a. 00:06:20.649 --> 00:06:26.669 Crass thing to say but it's really all i've got um and that's sort of how i 00:06:26.669 --> 00:06:30.609 think that's moving on to giving the standards some credit you know it was my 00:06:30.609 --> 00:06:35.669 job to retain um subscribers You know, you've subscribed, you've signed up. 00:06:36.369 --> 00:06:40.309 Who is this person? Why are they bothering me every single weekday? Do I like it? 00:06:40.669 --> 00:06:46.689 But what really helped at the standard, and it took quite a lot of cajoling 00:06:46.689 --> 00:06:49.929 on my part, was just to get a pop up on the website. 00:06:49.929 --> 00:06:53.309 Because you know the standard um was uh 00:06:53.309 --> 00:06:56.469 and i think remains it's free online and 00:06:56.469 --> 00:06:59.489 you know you compare that to pretty much everything else 00:06:59.489 --> 00:07:05.889 except the bbc and the guardian um isn't and so if the standard is getting a 00:07:05.889 --> 00:07:11.989 million hits a day and on the home page and on various news pages you're getting 00:07:11.989 --> 00:07:18.329 a pop-up saying sign up to our brilliant slash award-winning slash handsomely written um, 00:07:19.209 --> 00:07:22.169 daily newsletter from a very handsome writer as 00:07:22.169 --> 00:07:25.309 well obviously sure although you don't need 00:07:25.309 --> 00:07:27.989 um everyone to sign up i mean there's a small percentage of a 00:07:27.989 --> 00:07:31.149 very large we learned this during covid a small percentage of a large number 00:07:31.149 --> 00:07:36.669 can make a big difference and then it was sort of my job to retain them so that's 00:07:36.669 --> 00:07:42.689 that's the clear advantage of working with a big brand with a uh ready-made 00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:47.749 um or uh audience some of which is organic some of which is social. 00:07:49.509 --> 00:07:52.169 And I understand that he's very good at SEO as well, 00:07:53.153 --> 00:07:56.053 yes some very good people doing it 00:07:56.053 --> 00:07:58.893 i mean they're two for some reason they had two back when x was 00:07:58.893 --> 00:08:02.113 twitter and it didn't suppress links they had 00:08:02.113 --> 00:08:04.913 two very large um handles one for 00:08:04.913 --> 00:08:08.053 news one for non-news i think one had half a million another 00:08:08.053 --> 00:08:12.033 had a very large number um so it 00:08:12.033 --> 00:08:14.793 was um it was easier to to get eyeballs and it was my 00:08:14.793 --> 00:08:18.613 job to keep to entertain and to please but 00:08:18.613 --> 00:08:22.273 how much do you think like so you've 00:08:22.273 --> 00:08:25.073 got you've got that bit of the the 00:08:25.073 --> 00:08:28.293 you know you've got this infrastructure of a major newspaper 00:08:28.293 --> 00:08:31.133 because although the standard is in print in london it's 00:08:31.133 --> 00:08:34.873 read nationally let's be honest about that um 00:08:34.873 --> 00:08:37.733 internationally i would get really nice emails from 00:08:37.733 --> 00:08:40.473 readers um all over 00:08:40.473 --> 00:08:43.393 the world telling me either some of them had lived 00:08:43.393 --> 00:08:47.853 in london or random people from kansas who just was like oh i came across this 00:08:47.853 --> 00:08:51.693 and really enjoyed it i'm not saying they were the majority but it was quite 00:08:51.693 --> 00:08:55.853 cruel to um you know to take to take on the global favor you know what it's 00:08:55.853 --> 00:09:01.693 like um but how how then did you convert that to having. 00:09:03.013 --> 00:09:05.993 Personality because by the 00:09:05.993 --> 00:09:08.873 end people were you know people do read 00:09:08.873 --> 00:09:11.813 it because it's a standard and it's endorsed by a national news 00:09:11.813 --> 00:09:14.773 you know a major newspaper and that always helps 00:09:14.773 --> 00:09:17.713 but obviously people stick around because they like to have this sort 00:09:17.713 --> 00:09:20.553 of uh back and 00:09:20.553 --> 00:09:23.433 forth with you how when people are 00:09:23.433 --> 00:09:26.453 writing these newsletters because sometimes we see with brands 00:09:26.453 --> 00:09:29.353 right they can be quite stayed the things they 00:09:29.353 --> 00:09:32.593 put out every day but you were quite determined 00:09:32.593 --> 00:09:35.333 to put personality you know stories of your 00:09:35.333 --> 00:09:38.233 time in the civil service when it was appropriate normally around 00:09:38.233 --> 00:09:41.573 a budget or something that got in there like how 00:09:41.573 --> 00:09:44.633 did you sort of push that bit forward with the 00:09:44.633 --> 00:09:48.013 with the personality well I 00:09:48.013 --> 00:09:52.173 mean as I said there was no oversight so no 00:09:52.173 --> 00:09:55.193 I just I just did 00:09:55.193 --> 00:09:57.913 what came easiest so for example the date of the budget 00:09:57.913 --> 00:10:02.993 was just announced about half an hour ago at the time of recording yep and if 00:10:02.993 --> 00:10:07.253 I were writing something about the budget today I would start with the first 00:10:07.253 --> 00:10:10.893 thing that came to mind which is the time I think it might have been 2017 when 00:10:10.893 --> 00:10:16.133 I found out the date of the budget from Gladstone the Cat's Instagram story, 00:10:16.793 --> 00:10:19.933 which was not a triumph of Treasury, 00:10:20.793 --> 00:10:23.433 internal communications given that I was working there at the time. 00:10:24.933 --> 00:10:30.313 But you just, I don't want to start talking as if I have a process and I'm on 00:10:30.313 --> 00:10:35.713 Inside the Actors Studio but I find that the easiest way to start is just to 00:10:35.713 --> 00:10:37.313 We like to go behind the scenes here, it's fine. 00:10:38.317 --> 00:10:43.957 The easiest way to start is just to find sort of a kernel of something that 00:10:43.957 --> 00:10:51.717 can make a post about fiscal rules or fiscal consolidation or something that 00:10:51.717 --> 00:10:55.017 could otherwise be quite tedious fun for me. 00:10:55.557 --> 00:10:59.697 The point isn't to entertain me, but you know when you hear like interviews 00:10:59.697 --> 00:11:04.017 from actors when they've just been in a comedy and they were telling you how 00:11:04.017 --> 00:11:05.477 much fun they were having on set. 00:11:05.477 --> 00:11:08.737 And that's a real red flag because if they're having fun on set it's probably 00:11:08.737 --> 00:11:13.437 not a very good film or tv show or whatever so it's not about entertaining me 00:11:13.437 --> 00:11:19.937 um but you have like but well the truth is the easiest thing to remember and 00:11:19.937 --> 00:11:23.957 so I'm going to start writing and if it's tickling me. 00:11:24.577 --> 00:11:27.397 Hopefully it's tickling you and the other thing is because I have 00:11:27.397 --> 00:11:30.037 that background and I worked in parliament i worked at the 00:11:30.037 --> 00:11:33.297 treasury it means that i can 00:11:33.297 --> 00:11:37.137 kind of reflexively there 00:11:37.137 --> 00:11:40.577 is a grounding of of of research and 00:11:40.577 --> 00:11:43.357 it's a real time saver as well if i want 00:11:43.357 --> 00:11:48.177 a stat i pretty much know that'll be with the obr that'll be house commons library 00:11:48.177 --> 00:11:55.237 that'll be ons you know where to find so so yeah So it means that you're not 00:11:55.237 --> 00:12:02.417 having to divert much emotional energy or time doing the sort of more tedious stuff. 00:12:02.417 --> 00:12:04.917 And so the blood flows a little bit more, maybe. 00:12:05.237 --> 00:12:07.777 How did you find like that, putting 00:12:07.777 --> 00:12:11.217 something out and finding something to write about every single day? 00:12:11.377 --> 00:12:12.897 Because when I started the edition, 00:12:12.897 --> 00:12:18.277 I was like, I'm absolutely not doing a daily newsletter because... 00:12:19.719 --> 00:12:22.759 Could I possibly get something out every day? 00:12:22.959 --> 00:12:27.159 Now, as it happens, as I've got into it, I've thought, oh, I could, 00:12:27.319 --> 00:12:30.799 you know, I've started putting blog posts out. So this stuff is stuff going out every day. 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:34.299 But at the beginning, I was like, no, what I determinedly want to do is step 00:12:34.299 --> 00:12:36.519 back and not write something every day. 00:12:36.719 --> 00:12:40.019 How did you find that? And how do you find that with lines to take? 00:12:40.219 --> 00:12:42.299 Thinking of the story you're going to write every day. 00:12:44.979 --> 00:12:48.559 The comedian John Stewart, when he was doing The Daily Show, 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:51.179 he was doing it only four nights a week at the 00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:57.619 time but he compared it to pizza which is that you know there's good pizza there's 00:12:57.619 --> 00:13:01.799 not so good pizza but at the end of the day it's pizza it's got a base level 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:06.939 all rightness now i think if you serve people not so good pizza you're not going 00:13:06.939 --> 00:13:09.939 to get credit just because you're doing it every day you're serving them slop every day they're gonna, 00:13:10.619 --> 00:13:15.459 turn off the tv or in or in our case unsubscribe so it's not an argument for 00:13:15.459 --> 00:13:22.699 for serving up average content um but you know you know what they say there is there is a certain um, 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:29.879 quality to quantity uh but but sort of is that do you think that because i know i don't, 00:13:30.699 --> 00:13:35.719 i was i was good i was just gonna say that i've been i've been doing a daily 00:13:35.719 --> 00:13:40.739 newsletter for five years yeah i've and there were and for for four of those 00:13:40.739 --> 00:13:44.399 years i had a an additional deadline every day which was writing leaders, 00:13:44.999 --> 00:13:51.179 so I became chief leader writer at the Standard and oftentimes the same subject, 00:13:51.379 --> 00:13:54.679 if Parliament wasn't sitting there wasn't much going on, it may be that the 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:59.759 thing you wrote about at nine in the morning was still the main story of the day by three o'clock so. 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:06.070 The everyday thing. I mean, now what I have in my notes app, 00:14:06.110 --> 00:14:10.290 it is like it is like the length of Middlemarch, all these ideas. 00:14:11.050 --> 00:14:16.970 And the trouble is when you write them down, when I'm out walking or whatever, 00:14:16.990 --> 00:14:19.590 they seem like brilliant ideas that I can always come back to. 00:14:19.730 --> 00:14:23.210 And then when you're sitting down to write something and you have no ideas and 00:14:23.210 --> 00:14:26.470 you scroll through it, you think, what was I thinking? 00:14:27.270 --> 00:14:29.290 These are terrible. 00:14:30.430 --> 00:14:33.510 We've all done that yeah it's it's genius at 00:14:33.510 --> 00:14:36.430 nine o'clock at night by nine o'clock in the morning you're 00:14:36.430 --> 00:14:39.390 embarrassed at yourself so so what i try and 00:14:39.390 --> 00:14:42.370 do is without i don't have some spreadsheet where it's 00:14:42.370 --> 00:14:45.110 like one day is going to be about um this sort 00:14:45.110 --> 00:14:48.610 of thing one day about that sort of but i have general go-tos 00:14:48.610 --> 00:14:51.210 which is maybe something has broken in in a 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:58.490 good time for me and i can write about that um i think an example was on friday 00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:05.650 the liz truss odd locks podcast interview had just dropped and so two of your 00:15:05.650 --> 00:15:09.250 favorite things yes i i keep saying i'd be the perfect guest. 00:15:09.810 --> 00:15:12.550 And um so so so i so i could i could write 00:15:12.550 --> 00:15:15.610 about that but i mean i have like you know i want to write about 00:15:15.610 --> 00:15:19.090 maybe one day a week write about my aviation obsession 00:15:19.090 --> 00:15:21.910 or just try try and find 00:15:21.910 --> 00:15:24.590 things i think that there's a very treasury thing but it was 00:15:24.590 --> 00:15:28.270 always trying to add value because there's a 00:15:28.270 --> 00:15:31.130 lot of there's a lot of content out there 00:15:31.130 --> 00:15:34.550 and i don't like right 00:15:34.550 --> 00:15:37.530 you have to answer the why me thing and it can't just be 00:15:37.530 --> 00:15:41.350 because i have a deadline and this is just what i do i 00:15:41.350 --> 00:15:44.870 think my favorite ones to write are the 00:15:44.870 --> 00:15:49.290 ones where i think not that no one else could possibly have written it because 00:15:49.290 --> 00:15:53.090 i don't really get original ideas but maybe no one else would have written it 00:15:53.090 --> 00:16:02.450 that day and in that way and and in that way yeah yeah so talk to me then about going from this. 00:16:03.250 --> 00:16:09.390 Infrastructure of you know a relatively large newspaper and media company to 00:16:09.390 --> 00:16:13.690 strike you out by yourself how how did you find that. 00:16:16.430 --> 00:16:20.650 It was scary as you'd expect mm-hmm, 00:16:21.727 --> 00:16:25.527 Because you're, I mean, I had, how long was that at the standard? 00:16:25.767 --> 00:16:29.847 Roughly four years. And there were four fabulous years. Wouldn't swap it for 00:16:29.847 --> 00:16:32.307 the world. But it was obviously, the standard was changing. 00:16:32.647 --> 00:16:37.667 Its name was changing. It wasn't a daily paper anymore. No, it's a weekly now, 00:16:37.747 --> 00:16:39.347 isn't it? And they're much more focused on digital. 00:16:41.127 --> 00:16:46.027 Dylan Jones, a wonderful guy and a brilliant editor, actually announced that 00:16:46.027 --> 00:16:48.427 he was leaving the day after me. 00:16:48.947 --> 00:16:50.627 So a lot was changing. 00:16:51.727 --> 00:17:00.167 And I just thought it was time to do something different. 00:17:01.367 --> 00:17:06.007 And you are clearly losing infrastructure and you're having to do a lot of stuff. 00:17:06.127 --> 00:17:07.167 You're doing everything yourself. 00:17:07.387 --> 00:17:11.927 You're doing the promotion. You're doing the... Traffic design. 00:17:14.507 --> 00:17:19.387 That's a generous way of putting it. No, but you have to organise a logo. 00:17:19.387 --> 00:17:25.107 You have to organise a domain. You have to organise the colour that you want 00:17:25.107 --> 00:17:29.247 your newsletter to be, even if it's on Substack, where it's all quite default. 00:17:29.427 --> 00:17:32.767 Like all the things you'd never thought of before, you do have to do. 00:17:33.447 --> 00:17:40.027 Yeah. One of the things I miss the most is having a library of images, 00:17:40.407 --> 00:17:42.767 copyrighted images that you're legally allowed to use. 00:17:42.887 --> 00:17:48.907 So you are obviously restricted to either your own photographs occasionally 00:17:48.907 --> 00:17:50.947 or copyright free stuff. 00:17:51.287 --> 00:17:54.507 Um people underestimate it's a challenge no 00:17:54.507 --> 00:17:57.207 people underestimate what a big deal someone else paying for your 00:17:57.207 --> 00:18:00.007 getty images account is oh my 00:18:00.007 --> 00:18:04.967 god and getting it wrong i mean you'd almost rather accuse someone of being 00:18:04.967 --> 00:18:10.007 a murderer who isn't than accidentally using a copyrighted images because it'd 00:18:10.007 --> 00:18:19.147 probably be cheaper to to to to allege murder than to take someone's photo oh i know um, 00:18:19.667 --> 00:18:22.547 And you enjoy writing it just for yourself, not just for you, 00:18:22.627 --> 00:18:25.527 as in on your own. Lots of people are reading it, but... 00:18:28.056 --> 00:18:33.876 Yes. I mean, it is. I think one of my favorite things is that, like. 00:18:35.396 --> 00:18:40.236 I throw myself at it every single day and it's not always a roaring success, 00:18:40.236 --> 00:18:45.296 but I think I'm not so I'm not so brilliant that I can phone in and it'd be good. 00:18:45.296 --> 00:18:48.616 Like if and when it's good it's because 00:18:48.616 --> 00:18:51.336 I really thought about the subject and the way 00:18:51.336 --> 00:18:54.476 I was going to write it and it's sort 00:18:54.476 --> 00:18:57.576 of been whirring if not festering in the back of my mind for 00:18:57.576 --> 00:19:00.456 a few days some pieces are in my mind for years there 00:19:00.456 --> 00:19:04.276 was an anecdote really about a meeting from 00:19:04.276 --> 00:19:07.336 a from a tell-all book from from former 00:19:07.336 --> 00:19:10.976 senator John Edwards um guy 00:19:10.976 --> 00:19:14.276 who worked for him and he retold a story about 00:19:14.276 --> 00:19:17.316 edwards and chris dodd who was another senator and 00:19:17.316 --> 00:19:20.296 this is about 2007 maybe and they had a meeting with 00:19:20.296 --> 00:19:23.136 bill clinton um and they all 00:19:23.136 --> 00:19:26.656 the guy writes the story up being like um they 00:19:26.656 --> 00:19:29.856 left the meeting with clinton in stunned silence um 00:19:29.856 --> 00:19:32.696 and dodd eventually said i don't care how long i'm doing 00:19:32.696 --> 00:19:36.536 this i'll never be that good and that had been i'm not saying that i thought 00:19:36.536 --> 00:19:42.616 about that anecdote every day of my life since 2007 but like fortnightly and 00:19:42.616 --> 00:19:47.856 I finally had an opportunity to use it a couple of weeks ago and like no one 00:19:47.856 --> 00:19:50.616 else in the world except you now. 00:19:51.496 --> 00:19:54.476 Knows that that was like a really big deal for 00:19:54.476 --> 00:19:57.176 me but like I really care about those things and so 00:19:57.176 --> 00:20:00.436 even if the reader doesn't yeah as someone 00:20:00.436 --> 00:20:03.736 that's known you for a while now who's enjoyed having coffee and 00:20:03.736 --> 00:20:06.676 sometimes something stronger with you this is 00:20:06.676 --> 00:20:09.896 the most jack kensler story i could possibly imagine what 00:20:09.896 --> 00:20:13.416 about the jeremy brown anecdote the jeremy 00:20:13.416 --> 00:20:16.336 brown i'm god jeremy brown was also former minister i 00:20:16.336 --> 00:20:19.096 mean like as as niches as as well 00:20:19.096 --> 00:20:22.116 bill clinton's is not niche but chris dot is but jeremy so 00:20:22.116 --> 00:20:25.236 jeremy brown was a lib dem mp and 00:20:25.236 --> 00:20:28.076 minister and minister so that's nice 00:20:28.076 --> 00:20:31.316 for you guys and um i'm not 00:20:31.316 --> 00:20:34.696 i can assure you i am not a lived em i was 00:20:34.696 --> 00:20:37.836 backstage at the at daily politics 00:20:37.836 --> 00:20:41.916 when it was still called daily politics and um he 00:20:41.916 --> 00:20:45.516 was on with a labor mp and with 00:20:45.516 --> 00:20:48.276 liam fox oh i know by the way 00:20:48.276 --> 00:20:52.836 darling of the tory right sorry i know the story you're gonna tell and i knew 00:20:52.836 --> 00:20:57.556 it before you and i think i told people this story before you but carry on okay 00:20:57.556 --> 00:21:01.816 but i this is my how can it be oh i'm sorry how can this be your story when 00:21:01.816 --> 00:21:06.556 it's literally a story about me being there you were there but i knew the story before you told me. 00:21:07.522 --> 00:21:13.502 OK, anyway, I see Fox, who's been on the panel with Jeremy Brown, 00:21:13.642 --> 00:21:18.002 leaving the studio and Fox says to his researcher, it's not often I'm not the 00:21:18.002 --> 00:21:19.462 most right wing person on the panel. 00:21:20.062 --> 00:21:26.582 Which is funny because the Liberal Democrats are a party that has Jeremy Brown and Norman Baker. 00:21:27.362 --> 00:21:30.722 I mean, neither of them exist anymore, but. Which one? Sorry, 00:21:30.782 --> 00:21:33.822 there were two Bakers. There was the sane one and the slightly less. 00:21:35.122 --> 00:21:38.262 Um we're not accusing anyone of insanity on my 00:21:38.262 --> 00:21:41.102 first show back jack not happening but okay 00:21:41.102 --> 00:21:44.102 your point being there there are classical liberal 00:21:44.102 --> 00:21:47.362 right to the lib dems and a wafty social 00:21:47.362 --> 00:21:50.142 democrat left to the lib dems i think what my point really was 00:21:50.142 --> 00:21:52.842 that maybe it's coming through in my voice now which is that like 00:21:52.842 --> 00:21:55.842 i really care about these things yes so to the point that 00:21:55.842 --> 00:21:58.942 it's probably not healthy to do so and even 00:21:58.942 --> 00:22:01.902 if you the reader potentially don't share 00:22:01.902 --> 00:22:05.722 that enthusiasm for that individual anecdote the sort 00:22:05.722 --> 00:22:08.622 of fact that I'm throwing myself at it 00:22:08.622 --> 00:22:11.402 every day and trying to make you care as much as I 00:22:11.402 --> 00:22:16.402 do I think that that on a good day that does come through yeah absolutely does 00:22:16.402 --> 00:22:22.742 and I think it's also the best of the format right the personal newsletter is 00:22:22.742 --> 00:22:29.122 when you get that you know back and forth when you hear so like there are things 00:22:29.122 --> 00:22:30.522 that happen in a day and you're like, 00:22:30.702 --> 00:22:32.902 I really want to know what Jack thinks about this. 00:22:33.202 --> 00:22:37.182 Where's my email? And that's like, if you have that kind of personality, 00:22:37.182 --> 00:22:41.922 who really cares about stuff, that can become engaging. 00:22:42.162 --> 00:22:44.582 You know, I can read newsletters. 00:22:45.042 --> 00:22:49.762 And I don't particularly care about the thing they're talking about. 00:22:49.962 --> 00:22:53.562 But if they really care about it, that comes through and makes it an enjoyable 00:22:53.562 --> 00:23:00.182 read. and i think the whole format of the newsletter the substack world really facilitates that. 00:23:02.282 --> 00:23:09.782 Yeah and you know what's what's the um what's the product on offer here i really, 00:23:10.562 --> 00:23:15.922 you're the product to give you i probably am the product um although that sounds 00:23:15.922 --> 00:23:20.242 a bit like who was that apprentice candidate from like 20 2008 who was like 00:23:20.242 --> 00:23:23.582 i'm a brand i don't know i didn't Do you remember this? 00:23:23.822 --> 00:23:27.262 You can't call yourself a brand. Why not? 00:23:28.222 --> 00:23:31.822 You're a brand. Lies to take is a brand. Lies to take from Jack Kessler is a brand. 00:23:33.935 --> 00:23:39.015 Sorry to break it to you i'm not a brand you can be a brand but like you it's 00:23:39.015 --> 00:23:42.575 like referring to yourself in the third person you should really leave it to 00:23:42.575 --> 00:23:49.095 others yeah like like a comedian has to tell jokes they can't just knock up 00:23:49.095 --> 00:23:51.455 on stage and just you know assure people that they're funny. 00:23:52.775 --> 00:23:55.555 Yes some comedians would do well to remember that actually at 00:23:55.555 --> 00:23:58.975 a certain point in their career but anyway but what 00:23:58.975 --> 00:24:01.655 i also like to do is you know i did 00:24:01.655 --> 00:24:04.895 one random newsletter on a guy who i just thought was the most incredibly 00:24:04.895 --> 00:24:07.735 charismatic video explaining how the space shuttle was 00:24:07.735 --> 00:24:11.715 landing and i have no interest in the space shuttle but i'm 00:24:11.715 --> 00:24:14.735 really interested in charisma and i think the day before had 00:24:14.735 --> 00:24:17.695 been some dry piece maybe about some speech 00:24:17.695 --> 00:24:20.495 the governor bank of england and andrew bailey had done and so 00:24:20.495 --> 00:24:23.455 i don't deliberately set out to go oh i've done one about andrew 00:24:23.455 --> 00:24:26.435 bailey i better try and be zany and find some old youtube video 00:24:26.435 --> 00:24:30.175 to talk about um because um because it's 00:24:30.175 --> 00:24:33.795 not planned that far but I also I want 00:24:33.795 --> 00:24:36.655 to just write stuff that I'm interested in and if 00:24:36.655 --> 00:24:39.375 other people are interested in that's great but I feel like if 00:24:39.375 --> 00:24:42.515 I was just trying to guess what other people were interested in I wouldn't necessarily be 00:24:42.515 --> 00:24:45.735 any more successful so I might as well just you 00:24:45.735 --> 00:24:51.295 know throw my hat over the wall and have no choice but to climb over after it 00:24:51.295 --> 00:24:56.995 and be you yeah how do you find that whole world of sub stack and sort of social 00:24:56.995 --> 00:25:02.275 element to it the process of beginning and like building this thing by yourself 00:25:02.275 --> 00:25:04.375 how have you found the world of substack. 00:25:06.855 --> 00:25:09.695 It's um i mean as 00:25:09.695 --> 00:25:13.355 if anyone cares as a piece of software it's pretty straightforward to use which 00:25:13.355 --> 00:25:17.395 is not nothing when you're you're starting out we've all i say we've all some 00:25:17.395 --> 00:25:23.075 of us have used um content management systems that are not really horrible require 00:25:23.075 --> 00:25:29.515 and require um many months of uh of training to get up to scratch with. 00:25:30.475 --> 00:25:35.075 I wrote a piece yesterday, just being a little self-referential, 00:25:35.215 --> 00:25:39.935 which I don't love doing, but the thing that I am most alive to is... 00:25:41.497 --> 00:25:47.237 There is a tendency among all writers, but I think it's particularly acute in 00:25:47.237 --> 00:25:55.897 Substack or people who are writing personalised content, is to what extent are you self-censoring? 00:25:56.357 --> 00:26:00.157 I know, for example, what will be a popular newsletter. 00:26:00.397 --> 00:26:04.097 And that's not to say that I therefore, I mean, I'm not going to bother doing 00:26:04.097 --> 00:26:08.597 the sharpest subject line or nail the thumbnail image. 00:26:08.597 --> 00:26:11.697 Um but for example i mentioned doing that trust 00:26:11.697 --> 00:26:14.717 um sort of takedown of 00:26:14.717 --> 00:26:18.997 her takedown god that's absolutely hideous word um and 00:26:18.997 --> 00:26:21.697 i felt a little bit dirty doing it because i 00:26:21.697 --> 00:26:27.757 knew people would like it um i i don't i don't want lines to take being like 00:26:27.757 --> 00:26:31.917 someone referred to you remember in the middle of the the sunday politics and 00:26:31.917 --> 00:26:36.697 you would have like the fun bit and then they would switch to the local bit 00:26:36.697 --> 00:26:41.117 and then they would go to the whole Janan Ganesh looking cool section at the end. 00:26:41.617 --> 00:26:45.937 This is so niche for British politics listeners of this show but okay. 00:26:46.957 --> 00:26:51.257 Someone referred to the local bit as like the BBC telling you to eat your vegetables. 00:26:51.537 --> 00:26:54.137 I don't want lines to take to be eating your vegetables. 00:26:54.497 --> 00:27:02.377 I want people to to read it and think I'm funny and good looking but But I also 00:27:02.377 --> 00:27:08.637 just feel a little bit cringe at even the sort of self-accusation that I'm just 00:27:08.637 --> 00:27:10.597 giving people what they want, because, you know, 00:27:11.577 --> 00:27:15.817 98% of people who read my newsletter, I'm sure will have voted Remain, 00:27:16.037 --> 00:27:20.797 and the other 2% are the sort of people who don't think about it very much. 00:27:20.877 --> 00:27:27.217 It's not hardcore Remain, it'll be a very pro-Remain, pro-Kamala Harris, 00:27:27.697 --> 00:27:31.417 pro-global international, all the sorts of things. And so you do have to be 00:27:31.417 --> 00:27:33.637 mindful, even if you deny it. 00:27:33.757 --> 00:27:36.137 Like, I am a holder of minority opinions. 00:27:36.417 --> 00:27:39.557 And it's not so much picking your battles. 00:27:40.997 --> 00:27:45.337 But, I mean, I think when I wrote that piece, a number of people emailed back 00:27:45.337 --> 00:27:49.337 saying they don't always agree with me, but they like the challenge or they 00:27:49.337 --> 00:27:50.337 like how I've written it. 00:27:50.437 --> 00:27:56.197 And that's great. But I'm not sure a lot of people feel that way. 00:27:56.517 --> 00:27:59.297 So there's a balance to. i mean 00:27:59.297 --> 00:28:02.217 we all we all self-censor you know if you work 00:28:02.217 --> 00:28:05.397 for coca-cola i think it's a reasonable expectation 00:28:05.397 --> 00:28:08.057 that you don't take to social media and say how much you 00:28:08.057 --> 00:28:11.117 prefer pepsi right and we 00:28:11.117 --> 00:28:17.997 but when your employer in inverted commas is the audience um you know to what 00:28:17.997 --> 00:28:21.877 extent are you just serving them what what what they want or what you think 00:28:21.877 --> 00:28:28.877 that they want just to finish up then How do you see the general world of newsletters going? 00:28:29.277 --> 00:28:31.077 Are there too many of us? 00:28:31.577 --> 00:28:36.677 Has everyone got fed up with us? How do you see that whole world developing? Yeah. 00:28:39.580 --> 00:28:42.120 It's funny. I don't know when you 00:28:42.120 --> 00:28:47.140 think, if you think we've reached peak newsletter or if we haven't yet. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:56.480 I started in 2020, which I think was long before it sort of became a socially acceptable thing to do. 00:28:57.100 --> 00:29:05.160 It was still like smoking indoors now. And I had no idea it was something that 00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:08.980 I would still be doing in a few years time. 00:29:09.580 --> 00:29:16.800 I think that it's such a personal medium. You are in someone's inbox next to 00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:21.440 between their energy bill and an email from their sister. 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:30.000 And you are barging in and you kind of owe it to anyone who receives the email 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.200 to be worthy of the distraction of the intervention. 00:29:34.580 --> 00:29:38.520 I really agree with that. you have you there's 00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:41.560 something like it's bizarre right the email is what you 00:29:41.560 --> 00:29:44.460 know in relative terms is a pretty old-fashioned piece of technology and 00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:47.320 we're now treating it like it's the the great invention and 00:29:47.320 --> 00:29:50.240 the savior of media but it's also as you say really 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.100 personal and you do have to treat that with 00:29:53.100 --> 00:29:56.400 respect yeah and some 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.180 of the emails i get back from people are incredibly 00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:04.860 personal um and 00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:08.780 you kind of feel like they 00:30:08.780 --> 00:30:12.400 would not be sending that reply if 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.180 uh if it wasn't to reply to an email already in their 00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:17.980 inbox you're kind of um that it's 00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:20.720 a higher bar to sort of get there you have 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:24.260 someone has to sign up and and not unsubscribe but 00:30:24.260 --> 00:30:27.780 once you're in there you really i 00:30:27.780 --> 00:30:31.760 don't want to sound like i'm some sort of brand that pretends i have a symbiotic 00:30:31.760 --> 00:30:36.760 relationship with the consumer like i'm selling washing powder but you really 00:30:36.760 --> 00:30:46.840 i i genuinely think that people interact with you in a way they wouldn't if they were even reading a. 00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:50.910 A physical paper or just reading something online you 00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:53.970 know what it reminds me of a little bit was how 00:30:53.970 --> 00:30:56.890 um one of the ways that apple got people 00:30:56.890 --> 00:31:00.670 to actually pay for music rather than stealing music in 00:31:00.670 --> 00:31:03.590 the late 90s early 2000s was when itunes came. 00:31:03.590 --> 00:31:06.610 Along it wasn't sort of on the internet it 00:31:06.610 --> 00:31:09.450 was in a separate window because on the 00:31:09.450 --> 00:31:12.150 internet everything is free this is the late 90s no 00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:14.910 one's paying for i mean you're crazy if you're putting your credit card 00:31:14.910 --> 00:31:18.170 on the internet so if if i itunes 00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:20.890 created this ecosystem where people was like 00:31:20.890 --> 00:31:24.010 oh i'm in itunes now and in this in this world you know 00:31:24.010 --> 00:31:27.030 music costs money that's 99 yeah i 00:31:27.030 --> 00:31:29.930 mean i i write about this in my book streaming 00:31:29.930 --> 00:31:33.390 wars out in a month um nice thank 00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:36.330 you it's a slightly different thing because basically 00:31:36.330 --> 00:31:41.570 apple just made it easier to pay than steal but 00:31:41.570 --> 00:31:44.930 yeah there was this separate world as well um see 00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:47.830 this conversation has proved why you have to subscribe to 00:31:47.830 --> 00:31:50.510 lines to take because we've covered all sorts of 00:31:50.510 --> 00:31:54.250 interesting topics and it's been really really fun jack 00:31:54.250 --> 00:31:56.970 thanks so much for joining me now tell people where they 00:31:56.970 --> 00:31:59.970 can get your lovely newsletter uh if 00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:03.270 they go to lines to take.com and 00:32:03.270 --> 00:32:09.530 uh click subscribe and I will be able to bother you every weekday from now until 00:32:09.530 --> 00:32:14.850 the heat death of the universe wonderful head over to the edition.net if you're 00:32:14.850 --> 00:32:20.690 not there already to read daily blog posts live vlogs all sorts of fun things 00:32:20.690 --> 00:32:22.890 there as well as sign up to the newsletter. 00:32:23.850 --> 00:32:30.330 If you're quick I'm still running a 20 discount on paid subscriptions and this 00:32:30.330 --> 00:32:33.410 show will be back we'll be putting out every week there's also tv plus talk 00:32:33.410 --> 00:32:38.390 coming out regularly so i hope you'll keep this feed going as well and i'll see you all very soon. 00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:47.887 Music.