WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.360 Music. 00:00:09.203 --> 00:00:14.083 Hello and welcome to The Edition podcast. I'm Charlotte Henry and this week 00:00:14.083 --> 00:00:17.903 I'm really thrilled to be joined by Amir Mizroh. 00:00:18.023 --> 00:00:21.523 Amir was the Amaya tech editor of the Wall Street Journal. 00:00:22.043 --> 00:00:27.143 He was the director of communications for the Israeli tech NGO startup Nation 00:00:27.143 --> 00:00:32.503 Central and now has been set up his own on Substack, of course, 00:00:33.023 --> 00:00:38.303 Israel Tech Insider, a fantastic publication looking at Israel's amazing, 00:00:38.803 --> 00:00:43.303 vibrant, and in many sectors, world-leading tech scene. 00:00:44.023 --> 00:00:46.063 Amir, thanks so much for joining me. Thrilled to have you on. 00:00:46.663 --> 00:00:48.083 Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan. 00:00:48.923 --> 00:00:53.343 Well, I'm a huge fan of yours. And I guess we have to start with the sort of, 00:00:53.843 --> 00:00:55.843 elephant in the room, which is rather miserable. 00:00:56.143 --> 00:01:04.843 But how has media and tech been affected by the war since the attacks of October the 7th? 00:01:07.123 --> 00:01:10.283 Um okay so in my mind 00:01:10.283 --> 00:01:13.623 those are two different things like the israeli media 00:01:13.623 --> 00:01:17.703 obviously and the global media um you 00:01:17.703 --> 00:01:20.983 know that's a big story and you can just see that yeah and 00:01:20.983 --> 00:01:24.563 something i've written about but from you sitting in israel what's 00:01:24.563 --> 00:01:27.423 the local media scene been 00:01:27.423 --> 00:01:31.383 like um well obviously 00:01:31.383 --> 00:01:34.363 in in the first couple of months it was 00:01:34.363 --> 00:01:37.023 very um i guess you 00:01:37.023 --> 00:01:41.903 would say in hebrew the word is uh meguias 00:01:41.903 --> 00:01:44.603 right they're they're mobilized i mean it was 00:01:44.603 --> 00:01:48.923 just it is you know the biggest craziest most 00:01:48.923 --> 00:01:52.483 violent incident we've had here since 00:01:52.483 --> 00:01:55.303 ever um and then 00:01:55.303 --> 00:01:58.483 obviously as the wars dragged on 00:01:58.483 --> 00:02:02.043 and on there were there were 00:02:02.043 --> 00:02:05.383 narratives that were vying for you know primacy one 00:02:05.383 --> 00:02:13.563 obviously is the hostages um which is you know just core to what's happening 00:02:13.563 --> 00:02:19.163 here you know the the push between let's get the hostages out first versus the 00:02:19.163 --> 00:02:23.843 other camp that That seems to be saying the hostages are important, 00:02:23.843 --> 00:02:32.563 but so is defeating Hamas and making sure that the Gaza Strip never becomes a threat. 00:02:32.843 --> 00:02:41.823 So the tension between those two kind of reflects what's happening in reality anyway. 00:02:41.823 --> 00:02:45.963 Obviously you have your right-wing media and Channel 14 leading the charge, 00:02:46.203 --> 00:02:50.463 which is a lot more on the Netanyahu government side. 00:02:52.043 --> 00:02:54.083 And the other is now is, you know. 00:02:55.718 --> 00:03:02.078 Judicial coup and the war, those two lines have completely met. 00:03:02.378 --> 00:03:07.318 Just quickly explain what you mean by the judicial coup, just for people who 00:03:07.318 --> 00:03:10.738 weren't following that particular flare-up in Israeli society. 00:03:10.978 --> 00:03:16.818 So at the end of 2022, the Netanyahu government was sworn in on a platform of, 00:03:16.818 --> 00:03:22.658 you know, taking the country back from the Ashkenazi elites, pretty much. 00:03:22.758 --> 00:03:26.418 It was a very populist, right-wing nationalist religious, 00:03:26.878 --> 00:03:33.718 including the ultra-Orthodox parties who wanted a lot of the basic laws changed 00:03:33.718 --> 00:03:38.618 in Israel so that the Knesset can override the courts. And why do they want to do that? 00:03:38.818 --> 00:03:42.898 The settlers want to do that because they want the West Bank annexed. 00:03:43.078 --> 00:03:50.138 The Haredim want to do that so that they can pass laws that their yeshiva boys never go to the army. 00:03:50.918 --> 00:03:53.858 Yeah because the ultra religious the ultra 00:03:53.858 --> 00:03:57.038 orthodox this has always been a bone of contention in 00:03:57.038 --> 00:04:00.438 all parts of israeli society because they don't want 00:04:00.438 --> 00:04:03.178 their children to serve in the army most don't i mean there are 00:04:03.178 --> 00:04:06.258 specific units on there of the ultra orthodox 00:04:06.258 --> 00:04:09.298 but not very many as a proportion whereas every other 00:04:09.298 --> 00:04:12.178 part of israeli society uh sends their 00:04:12.178 --> 00:04:15.918 children both male and female to the army um and 00:04:15.918 --> 00:04:18.658 then well you were going on to explain i think that they 00:04:18.658 --> 00:04:22.798 were trying to change these rules about the judiciary yeah i'll 00:04:22.798 --> 00:04:25.738 just just very briefly until you know so we can get back to the the media 00:04:25.738 --> 00:04:28.938 because i think the the media angle is important because what's 00:04:28.938 --> 00:04:35.058 happened is every single major media outlet has gone back to its tribal base 00:04:35.058 --> 00:04:41.038 right then you know the the ashkenazi elite are you know the mainstream tv channels 00:04:41.038 --> 00:04:46.478 12 and 13 then you have a big swear the country, which is kind of in the middle, 00:04:46.758 --> 00:04:51.598 right, left, religious and secular, and that's the broadcasting channel 11, 00:04:51.598 --> 00:04:55.898 and then 14 is more of the religious and right. 00:04:58.038 --> 00:05:03.498 And basically this government, the whole of 2023, before the war was pushing, 00:05:03.838 --> 00:05:07.398 so Israel doesn't have a constitution. It has a set of basic laws. 00:05:07.638 --> 00:05:09.198 We don't have a constitution. 00:05:09.458 --> 00:05:11.978 And the basic laws have this tension between, 00:05:13.479 --> 00:05:24.839 You know, being a Western democracy versus a Jewish state run on Jewish principles, Jewish theology. 00:05:25.159 --> 00:05:29.139 So that's Jewish and democratic status at the core. And this government really 00:05:29.139 --> 00:05:30.699 wanted to go a lot more Jewish. 00:05:30.899 --> 00:05:35.039 And some of the ministers and people in the coalition, I think it was Arya Derry 00:05:35.039 --> 00:05:40.619 and those people who was on the ultra-Orthodox party said, It's okay if Israel 00:05:40.619 --> 00:05:44.559 is more of a Jewish and some democratic state. 00:05:44.999 --> 00:05:50.799 In their mind, you would need to get rid of the checks and balances like the 00:05:50.799 --> 00:05:59.759 attorney general, the courts, the judicial, the way that judges are elected. 00:05:59.899 --> 00:06:03.059 It's exactly the same thing that Trump was doing in America. In any case, 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:12.699 we got to October 2023 on the verge of, I wouldn't say it's like a civil war, 00:06:12.739 --> 00:06:16.819 but we got there with two very, very distinct camps at each other. 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:21.799 People mistake this about Israeli media culture, that it's a very small country, 00:06:21.799 --> 00:06:23.779 but there's an awful lot of stuff. 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:26.439 There's multiple newspapers from across the political spectrum. 00:06:26.599 --> 00:06:29.719 You've outlined the multiple TV channels from the political spectrum. 00:06:29.819 --> 00:06:32.979 The same is true in radio. it's a very diverse 00:06:32.979 --> 00:06:37.099 media sector for a very small country correct 00:06:37.099 --> 00:06:39.959 and it's uh tribal it's very 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.679 tribal there's you know each each media platform 00:06:43.679 --> 00:06:50.359 really kind of does speak to its own um audience and that's a problem by the 00:06:50.359 --> 00:06:56.999 way yeah in media in general absolutely we see it in um you know the us slightly 00:06:56.999 --> 00:07:00.499 different here in terms of broadcast media because of the rules but it's certainly 00:07:00.499 --> 00:07:02.079 true in terms of printing media here. 00:07:02.539 --> 00:07:06.479 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a whole different topic. So with that background, 00:07:06.679 --> 00:07:12.739 you decided to start this new publication, looking specifically at the tech 00:07:12.739 --> 00:07:16.879 scene, which has always been a fascinating part of Israel and its economy. 00:07:17.179 --> 00:07:22.919 Because for us, again, very small country, it's flourished, amazing, amazing innovations. 00:07:24.139 --> 00:07:29.019 It's not a surprise that lots of the big tech companies also have offices within Israel. 00:07:29.972 --> 00:07:36.352 So I guess I have to ask, how has the war affected the development of that scene? Yeah. 00:07:37.212 --> 00:07:41.632 So that's a big question. And I'll tie it back to the judicial reform, 00:07:41.792 --> 00:07:50.972 because the tech industry for the year before the war was leading the resistance 00:07:50.972 --> 00:07:53.612 to the government's judicial reform. 00:07:53.612 --> 00:07:59.612 Because Israeli tech, you know, Israeli tech is export-oriented. 00:08:00.552 --> 00:08:06.552 Israeli tech, you know, 85% of its venture capital funding comes from abroad. 00:08:07.052 --> 00:08:15.152 You know, U.S., Asia, Europe, a lot of the, as you said, the multinational corporations, 00:08:15.152 --> 00:08:18.772 the big ones, Microsoft, Apple, NVIDIA, Google, 00:08:19.492 --> 00:08:25.712 Amazon, they all have not just offices here But R&D, product development, 00:08:26.012 --> 00:08:30.772 research, really, really big and significant operations here. 00:08:31.592 --> 00:08:34.972 And so this ability to be open to the world, 00:08:35.132 --> 00:08:39.612 to have independent courts that have confidence, you know, 00:08:39.692 --> 00:08:44.872 so that foreign investors and foreign corporates can have confidence to do business 00:08:44.872 --> 00:08:51.852 here is one of the most important strategic pillars of this country's economy. 00:08:51.852 --> 00:08:55.652 Tick in Israel is... 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:04.260 Driver of the Israeli economy. It's over 51% of exports for the first time recently. 00:09:04.700 --> 00:09:08.720 It makes up about 25% of taxes. 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:17.360 It's close to 20% of GDP, even though it only employs about 10% of the workforce. 00:09:18.660 --> 00:09:24.600 Its impact on the company is vast. 00:09:24.760 --> 00:09:33.860 And it mirrors is um israeli tech's impact and footprint globally also much bigger impact than, 00:09:34.660 --> 00:09:44.000 its size would show and suggest and i was gonna say clearly you don't feel that 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:49.020 that story is being told which is why you set up the publication you have no 00:09:49.020 --> 00:09:51.080 i think that story definitely is being told. 00:09:51.400 --> 00:09:56.120 And it's being told, you know, there's been books about it, Startup Nation. Right. 00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:00.360 So I think that story is well known. 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.260 I think what happened before the war, 00:10:04.580 --> 00:10:10.940 during the war and after the war shows a different side and really kind of exposes 00:10:10.940 --> 00:10:15.720 the strengths and weaknesses of this kind of crucial economy. 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:21.860 So before the war, so Israeli tech never really got too involved in politics for 20 years. 00:10:21.980 --> 00:10:27.800 The government pretty much stayed out of the way and Israeli tech just grew and became incredible. 00:10:29.520 --> 00:10:35.980 So when the judicial reform started, Israeli techies were out there protesting 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:38.240 it. When the war happened... 00:10:39.236 --> 00:10:47.876 You know, a huge amount of Israeli techies were called up for duty. 00:10:48.116 --> 00:10:55.476 Of course, yeah. So these people, like I said, maybe 10% of the working population, 00:10:55.536 --> 00:10:58.676 we're only talking about 400,000 people, right? 00:10:58.776 --> 00:11:02.696 And a lot of those went back to their units. 00:11:03.696 --> 00:11:09.116 And many of them did tours of duty that were unheard of in length, 00:11:09.236 --> 00:11:13.296 before 100 days 200 days 300 days um 00:11:13.296 --> 00:11:16.676 and that had a big impact 00:11:16.676 --> 00:11:19.576 on the ability of their companies and their 00:11:19.576 --> 00:11:22.596 obviously their families their businesses they're 00:11:22.596 --> 00:11:28.476 not all in tech but um you know that really did take a toll but we the point 00:11:28.476 --> 00:11:34.496 i'm trying to make is we we got to october 7th already in a very bad state because 00:11:34.496 --> 00:11:40.016 the judicial reform was already slowing down and deterring foreign investment. 00:11:40.836 --> 00:11:45.656 And Israelis were already kind of busy protesting. 00:11:45.796 --> 00:11:48.976 So this was having a chilling effect. We got to the war. 00:11:49.396 --> 00:11:53.876 All of a sudden, the country changes entirely. 00:11:54.296 --> 00:11:58.876 And then within a couple of months, it becomes quite clear that business has to carry on. 00:11:59.076 --> 00:12:05.176 And so the resilience that started to show itself and how the tech industry 00:12:05.176 --> 00:12:10.516 was filling gaps that the government was leaving in terms of everything, 00:12:10.516 --> 00:12:14.396 in terms of tech to find hostages, 00:12:14.676 --> 00:12:23.956 tech to identify human remains and bodies and try and put together intelligence, 00:12:24.396 --> 00:12:26.156 open source intelligence and what was going on. 00:12:26.256 --> 00:12:34.396 There was also a lot of equipment that was lacking and needed in the field that 00:12:34.396 --> 00:12:40.696 Israeli techies organized through donations abroad or whatever it was to get. 00:12:41.711 --> 00:12:46.071 You know, vests, ceramic vests, everything, helmets, to the troops. 00:12:46.311 --> 00:12:48.411 So you saw the resilience. 00:12:50.111 --> 00:12:56.691 Companies carried on doing the best they can, working and trying to keep going. 00:12:57.291 --> 00:13:02.811 But the war is dragging on and on. And I think we're now in this phase where 00:13:02.811 --> 00:13:07.611 what I see is we've definitely circled the wagons, 00:13:07.611 --> 00:13:12.351 like things that are core to Israeli tech strengths, 00:13:13.051 --> 00:13:18.211 big data, AI, enterprise tech, and cybersecurity, obviously, 00:13:18.591 --> 00:13:25.591 and some biotech are doing okay in terms of M&As, exits, funding. 00:13:25.931 --> 00:13:29.251 It's not easy, but they're doing okay. And all the other things that we were 00:13:29.251 --> 00:13:34.971 talking about before the war started, agri-tech, fintech, food tech. 00:13:34.971 --> 00:13:36.651 Agri-tech is the one I was thinking of. 00:13:38.111 --> 00:13:43.391 They've, they've taken a hit. They've taken a hit. And that's part of the story 00:13:43.391 --> 00:13:44.431 you want to tell, I guess. 00:13:45.191 --> 00:13:52.151 So, um, I was doing, you know, a lot of different things with my podcast, the Dejargonizer, 00:13:52.791 --> 00:13:58.711 having a lot of people on, I was writing, um, but it, it seemed, uh, 00:13:58.971 --> 00:14:07.671 to me even that there wasn't, one place where a smart, non-bias, 00:14:07.831 --> 00:14:09.951 non-Hasbara, non-ra-ra. 00:14:10.911 --> 00:14:15.431 Just quickly explain that Hasbara to people. No, I think that a lot of stories 00:14:15.431 --> 00:14:18.811 about Israeli tech are just fabulous, fantastic. 00:14:19.151 --> 00:14:21.591 Look at all the big M&As and we have the greatest minds here. 00:14:21.591 --> 00:14:24.751 Yeah, you wanted to tell the bit more the reality, good and bad. 00:14:25.251 --> 00:14:29.631 Yeah. And, you know, I heard from a lot of people that there wasn't one place 00:14:29.631 --> 00:14:34.391 that gave view that kind of almost journalistic, editorially strong and rigorous 00:14:34.391 --> 00:14:39.491 take on what's really going on here, including the challenges and the successes. 00:14:40.711 --> 00:14:48.351 You wrote an interesting story not that long ago about chips, 00:14:49.131 --> 00:14:53.211 the importance of silicon and silicon independence for different countries and 00:14:53.211 --> 00:15:00.091 how Israel is an important position in that world, particularly all the tensions 00:15:00.091 --> 00:15:02.611 between China and related countries. 00:15:03.431 --> 00:15:06.251 That's an important story that I think often gets lost. 00:15:07.551 --> 00:15:11.291 Did you find a sort of... You work for some of the biggest publications in the 00:15:11.291 --> 00:15:13.371 world, right? It doesn't get much bigger than the Wall Street Journal. 00:15:14.471 --> 00:15:20.871 Do you find a sort of liberation in being able to cover these stories independently? 00:15:23.151 --> 00:15:23.591 Um... 00:15:24.940 --> 00:15:28.780 I wouldn't say it's a liberate, because, I mean, even at, obviously, 00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:33.560 at the journal, this is, you know, I mean, I think of the Jerusalem Post first, 00:15:33.580 --> 00:15:38.440 and then definitely at the journal is where, you know, I learned my craft and honed my craft. 00:15:38.540 --> 00:15:42.240 And the journal, you know, covers stuff independently. 00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:47.540 Very, very, very good newspapers. I didn't think that that's something I'm missing, 00:15:47.640 --> 00:15:50.340 but I have been out of journalism for long enough to miss it. 00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:57.020 Missed the troublemaking. Well, just, yeah, just miss the vocation, I guess. 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:04.840 And the gap in the market here, which kind of like astounded me, 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:10.000 even when I managed to buy the URL IsraelTechInsider.com, I thought I would 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:13.320 have to buy it off someone or, 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:16.220 you know, but it was there, it was $12, I got it. 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:20.980 No one is doing this on a regular basis. And I thought, I have to do this. 00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:25.260 And a lot of people were saying, look, we need one place where the most important 00:16:25.260 --> 00:16:28.700 stuff gets covered in a very smart way. 00:16:29.140 --> 00:16:30.800 And there it is. 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:35.000 So far, so good. It does seem extraordinary to me. Look, I've covered bits of 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:37.940 the Israeli tech scene. It's something I've always been interested in journalistically. 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:43.940 Other people do dip in and out of it. But it does seem extraordinary to me how 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:46.980 often the Israeli tech scene is overlooked. 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:51.220 And do you think that's basically because most tech journalists are based in 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:54.380 London, like me, or they're based in Silicon Valley, 00:16:54.680 --> 00:17:01.120 somewhere in California, and this little country of seven million people just 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:02.220 gets sort of overlooked? 00:17:03.780 --> 00:17:06.660 Well i mean i don't think i i don't 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.640 think it's um deliberate i think 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:13.260 yeah i just think the you know if you look at the mainstream tech 00:17:13.260 --> 00:17:16.380 news coverage they're covering the biggest stories in 00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:19.340 the world the biggest shifts in the world the biggest companies so obviously 00:17:19.340 --> 00:17:22.320 china and the u.s and the chip 00:17:22.320 --> 00:17:24.980 wars and the software models and is it 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:28.440 deep seek versus open ai or anthropic 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.280 what's happening uh with ai and 00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:34.240 what's happening with defense tech and just what's 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.440 happening on the on the global stage the this is this is 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.840 their this is their um this is their beat israel will 00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:43.740 only uh appear on in 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:47.460 their inbox or on their beat when it when it applies to 00:17:47.460 --> 00:17:53.660 kind of the global level so google acquiring whiz yeah um is a huge story not 00:17:53.660 --> 00:17:57.260 just because of the number and and because of the acquirer but because of what 00:17:57.260 --> 00:18:05.300 it signals in terms of you know cloud security and google's future and and all that but. 00:18:06.054 --> 00:18:13.514 The deeper shifts that are happening here that make or break Israel's future 00:18:13.514 --> 00:18:16.734 in terms of its ability to protect itself, 00:18:17.074 --> 00:18:23.434 be sovereign over the supply chain of AI models and semiconductors, 00:18:23.594 --> 00:18:29.294 just as important as, you know, artillery shells and bunker busting bombs. 00:18:29.294 --> 00:18:31.814 So we don't make our own artillery shells, not really enough. 00:18:31.934 --> 00:18:40.074 We don't have the scale of manufacturing to not rely on the U.S. 00:18:40.154 --> 00:18:41.674 To airlift weapons here all the time. 00:18:41.774 --> 00:18:45.414 And unfortunately, we also don't make our own language models. 00:18:45.614 --> 00:18:51.614 We use other people's AI and language models to do amazing things. 00:18:51.734 --> 00:18:57.914 And there are some companies doing the foundational work, semiconductors specifically. 00:18:57.914 --> 00:19:02.854 But in AI, we're more vertically targeted. 00:19:03.034 --> 00:19:04.794 It could be cyber and fintech. 00:19:05.954 --> 00:19:10.754 There's no Israeli equivalent of Anthropic or OpenAI, just like there's no Israeli 00:19:10.754 --> 00:19:14.694 equivalent of Palantir, which I always found astounding. 00:19:14.894 --> 00:19:19.914 How come we don't have our own Israeli defense tech champions? 00:19:20.814 --> 00:19:25.594 And one of the first stories I wrote for the Times of Israel during this war 00:19:26.014 --> 00:19:28.734 was, where are Israel's defense tech startups? 00:19:30.214 --> 00:19:34.374 There's just very, very few of them. Yeah, it is fascinating. 00:19:34.574 --> 00:19:38.694 I mean, there's always the joke, right, isn't there? You meet someone in Israeli tech. 00:19:39.074 --> 00:19:46.634 Oh, what did you do? Oh, I was in the 8200 unit, which is the sort of top secret cybersecurity unit. 00:19:46.774 --> 00:19:50.094 And that's sort of the joke. They go from 8200 to cybersecurity. 00:19:50.094 --> 00:19:53.054 To and that link 00:19:53.054 --> 00:19:56.134 between sort of the compulsory 00:19:56.134 --> 00:19:59.894 military service and tech startup is a well-worn path 00:19:59.894 --> 00:20:02.634 and yet that's the story you're telling 00:20:02.634 --> 00:20:08.954 is that it's um there's very big gaps as well in huge gaps huge gaps especially 00:20:08.954 --> 00:20:14.694 in the mix of hardware listen defense tech is harder because there's hardware 00:20:14.694 --> 00:20:20.994 and the military data has to be compartmentalized more. There's a lot of challenges. 00:20:21.334 --> 00:20:26.534 And just like the US and the UK, it's very hard for dual purpose or, 00:20:26.534 --> 00:20:30.934 you know, innovative startups to break through the big... 00:20:31.495 --> 00:20:34.475 Primes as they're called in the u and you know in the uk there's 00:20:34.475 --> 00:20:37.555 bae um in the 00:20:37.555 --> 00:20:40.535 u.s it's north of grumman in israel it's 00:20:40.535 --> 00:20:43.555 you know elbit and israel aircraft 00:20:43.555 --> 00:20:46.435 industries rafael but the fact 00:20:46.435 --> 00:20:50.075 that we have this great uh huge um talent 00:20:50.075 --> 00:20:52.955 pool that knows the gaps in the 00:20:52.955 --> 00:20:56.035 field and then tries to innovate and close those 00:20:56.035 --> 00:20:59.415 gaps but can't make it through the system so instead 00:20:59.415 --> 00:21:02.535 they'll just go to cyber or fintech or somewhat something else 00:21:02.535 --> 00:21:05.475 there's very very few defense tech 00:21:05.475 --> 00:21:08.395 startups here only now is it starting to to 00:21:08.395 --> 00:21:15.955 grow do you just to go back to the kind of previous point do you think the you 00:21:15.955 --> 00:21:21.255 know the mainstream tech press whether that's the wall street journal or tech 00:21:21.255 --> 00:21:26.015 crunch is missing the story in Israel. 00:21:26.915 --> 00:21:30.475 Because, you know, I get that it's a small country. 00:21:30.635 --> 00:21:36.655 It's not going to have lots of people plowing into it. But it's a very big player in the tech world. 00:21:36.815 --> 00:21:41.195 And that doesn't seem to be reflected in media coverage. 00:21:41.515 --> 00:21:45.275 Right. Well, this has always been, you know, 00:21:45.715 --> 00:21:49.075 an interesting kind of, i guess duality about 00:21:49.075 --> 00:21:53.335 israel and israeli tech in terms of the newsroom right 00:21:53.335 --> 00:21:59.495 mindset right that's exactly what i'm getting at the newsroom when it you know 00:21:59.495 --> 00:22:05.495 when it looks at israel coverage it sees first the conflict because that is 00:22:05.495 --> 00:22:11.775 sure the bigger story sure so even if you know the wall street Journal has fantastic people here. 00:22:11.955 --> 00:22:14.455 They'll be covering the big story. 00:22:15.215 --> 00:22:18.955 If there's a tech angle, like they have been, you know, a couple of times, 00:22:19.115 --> 00:22:23.255 if there's a tech angle, and it's important enough, then they'll do it. 00:22:23.515 --> 00:22:30.275 But that's, you know, unlike the Journal or the New York Times, 00:22:30.575 --> 00:22:34.755 or whoever it is in the San Francisco Bureau and the London bureaus, 00:22:34.975 --> 00:22:37.195 there is no massive conflict. 00:22:37.375 --> 00:22:40.875 They're tech journalists and that's what they're focusing on whereas people 00:22:40.875 --> 00:22:42.575 who cover israel will be more, 00:22:43.315 --> 00:22:46.695 um you know politics security general 00:22:46.695 --> 00:22:52.295 news well i mean what do you think can be done to solve that do you think someone 00:22:52.295 --> 00:22:57.555 like you building a publication can actually build that from the ground up to 00:22:57.555 --> 00:23:05.295 fill that gap in the market well i'm i'm not sure there there is that huge gap in that market. 00:23:05.455 --> 00:23:10.675 I think there is a gap in the market of people who are interested in a Israel, 00:23:10.955 --> 00:23:16.675 Israeli tech, Israeli business, and then also a global audience that's. 00:23:17.389 --> 00:23:26.629 Really interested in the future of tech and how Israel, because of its unique characteristics, 00:23:27.189 --> 00:23:33.969 is often at the future of tech and its applications, whether it's in cyber and 00:23:33.969 --> 00:23:36.689 defense and biotech and all sorts of things. 00:23:36.869 --> 00:23:40.069 The research and development that's done here and the 00:23:40.069 --> 00:23:43.069 initial product development that's done here is 00:23:43.069 --> 00:23:45.929 you know it kind of reminds me um in 00:23:45.929 --> 00:23:48.709 in wired in the magazine i don't 00:23:48.709 --> 00:23:52.569 know if they have it anymore but years ago they used to have this this 00:23:52.569 --> 00:23:58.229 regular you know half page uh somewhere in the middle or the back of the magazine 00:23:58.229 --> 00:24:05.109 about um what japanese school girls are using like what tech are they're using 00:24:05.109 --> 00:24:10.889 what phones are they using what apps because that That would show you where consumer, 00:24:10.909 --> 00:24:13.169 you know, 00:24:13.529 --> 00:24:14.349 tastes are going. 00:24:14.649 --> 00:24:17.349 Japanese schoolgirl, take a watch or something. 00:24:17.949 --> 00:24:23.529 I think what's missing from the more, I mean, investors know this for sure, 00:24:23.709 --> 00:24:25.829 because there's so many of them here. 00:24:25.829 --> 00:24:32.989 But I think potentially the story of, you know, Israel at the cold face of technology 00:24:32.989 --> 00:24:38.509 and what they're doing and what they're seeing on a regular basis for a broader 00:24:38.509 --> 00:24:40.329 audience potentially isn't there. 00:24:40.469 --> 00:24:44.769 And I think that's where I'm finding an audience. 00:24:46.268 --> 00:24:50.008 Just a couple of things to round off. 00:24:50.148 --> 00:24:56.288 I guess I have to ask you, unfortunately, what is the perception in Israel of 00:24:56.288 --> 00:25:02.968 the way the country is being covered at the moment by, you know, 00:25:03.108 --> 00:25:04.848 generally from the outside media? 00:25:05.908 --> 00:25:13.308 Well, I think it's been the same since day two of the war, which is, 00:25:13.428 --> 00:25:18.228 you know, everyone hates us. No one understands us. 00:25:19.168 --> 00:25:27.448 They're only concerned about the other side. And there's a message here that 00:25:27.448 --> 00:25:31.448 wasn't said very loudly at the beginning by everyone, but it's now becoming 00:25:31.448 --> 00:25:32.668 more and more in the mainstream, 00:25:32.868 --> 00:25:35.108 which still drives me nuts. 00:25:35.308 --> 00:25:47.028 But the whole push to get humanitarian aid to Gazans is the overriding narrative. 00:25:48.108 --> 00:25:51.408 But a lot of Israelis would say, 00:25:51.708 --> 00:25:59.348 you know, we should definitely get that humanitarian aid to Gaza, 00:25:59.348 --> 00:26:05.388 but only if it also goes to the hostages and we can verify that the hostages are getting aid. 00:26:05.788 --> 00:26:10.868 And for some reason, that was never an Israeli demand. 00:26:12.748 --> 00:26:18.008 Do you feel like the story of the hostages, of which there are 59 in total, 00:26:18.188 --> 00:26:21.988 we think about half of them, maybe 24, 25 are still alive. 00:26:22.348 --> 00:26:26.008 Do you think that story is being forgotten by media outside of Israel? 00:26:28.354 --> 00:26:32.034 Um, well, I mean, it's two different things. 00:26:32.194 --> 00:26:35.194 One is, is it being forgotten? I'm, I'm not sure. 00:26:35.194 --> 00:26:42.334 I know that, you know, the big media publications, they do give space to interviews 00:26:42.334 --> 00:26:46.534 with hostages, former hostages, you see them on, on global TV. 00:26:46.534 --> 00:26:52.134 But I think that what Israelis feel and what Israelis think about the global 00:26:52.134 --> 00:26:59.994 media, and they're not always wrong, is just general, they're against us. 00:27:00.474 --> 00:27:04.594 And, you know, like I said, they're not always wrong. 00:27:05.874 --> 00:27:08.694 The Israelis are not always wrong about that perception. Yeah, 00:27:08.834 --> 00:27:12.374 because I think that one thing that, again, hasn't been spoken about a lot, 00:27:12.494 --> 00:27:15.994 but something that, as a former journalist, really kind of gets me. 00:27:15.994 --> 00:27:18.154 I don't think you're a former. I think you're still a journalist. 00:27:18.394 --> 00:27:23.294 Well, I'm a journalist. I'm just not a, I don't have a publication that I, well, maybe I am. 00:27:23.734 --> 00:27:29.274 That's a good point. No, what I wanted to say was for many, many, 00:27:29.414 --> 00:27:31.654 many years and still continuing today, 00:27:31.974 --> 00:27:38.234 journalists will source information from NGOs in conflict zones or no, 00:27:38.314 --> 00:27:45.154 because the NGOs are somehow considered to be in a journalistic mind, nonpartisan. 00:27:45.594 --> 00:27:51.274 Right. But they're not non-partisan, they're not NPOs, they're non-governmental 00:27:51.274 --> 00:27:55.654 organizations. And that just means that they don't belong to one government. 00:27:55.714 --> 00:28:00.214 That doesn't mean that they don't have a partisan leaning. 00:28:00.214 --> 00:28:12.154 When you look at the repeated sourcing and unquestioning covering and sourcing of Amnesty, 00:28:12.794 --> 00:28:21.054 Doctors Without Borders, UNRWA, any UN organization, still in the Western mind of the journalist –. 00:28:22.871 --> 00:28:25.931 They are right. They can't be wrong. Maybe they'll make mistakes, 00:28:25.971 --> 00:28:32.051 but they're trying to be accurate and represent both sides. But that is just not true. 00:28:32.871 --> 00:28:36.791 It's not true. You mean you sort of feel that definitively? 00:28:37.471 --> 00:28:41.731 100%. You can see that a lot of numbers were taken from Hamas, 00:28:41.791 --> 00:28:43.831 who took them from NGOs, who took them from the media. 00:28:44.111 --> 00:28:50.471 There's also documented evidence of Hamas people working at UNRWA. 00:28:50.471 --> 00:28:57.211 There's definitely a line, an agenda by a lot of the NGOs, but they are there 00:28:57.211 --> 00:29:01.731 to work with the Palestinians and help the Palestinians, and they're part of 00:29:01.731 --> 00:29:02.771 the Palestinian fabric. 00:29:04.231 --> 00:29:10.071 And you will always see the big mainstream media when they're quoting Israeli 00:29:10.071 --> 00:29:14.051 sources of the army saying something like the Israeli army claims or Israel 00:29:14.051 --> 00:29:18.011 claims, and we couldn't verify this independently. 00:29:19.051 --> 00:29:22.091 Oh one second but you'll never 00:29:22.091 --> 00:29:25.691 see that same wording when 00:29:25.691 --> 00:29:34.451 they say um you know unres says or amnesty says uh and they won't they'll just 00:29:34.451 --> 00:29:38.471 take that as fact they're not gonna then say we couldn't they don't they don't 00:29:38.471 --> 00:29:42.391 even try they don't even feel the need to go and independently verify what an 00:29:42.391 --> 00:29:45.591 NGO tells them. And that's a problem. Yes. 00:29:46.631 --> 00:29:51.151 I mean, I suspect some of those NGOs and journalists would say that's because 00:29:51.151 --> 00:29:53.511 Israel's not letting journalists into Gaza. 00:29:56.786 --> 00:29:58.946 That would be the answer, wouldn't it? That would be the response. 00:29:59.366 --> 00:30:03.946 But then what I always find interesting, and I speak to journalists, 00:30:04.126 --> 00:30:08.166 is like, first of all, a lot of journalists are not going into Gaza, 00:30:08.186 --> 00:30:10.006 but they're still reporting and they make calls. 00:30:10.186 --> 00:30:15.486 So if you speak to this Gaza and you can also talk to that Gaza about where is the aid going? 00:30:15.806 --> 00:30:18.906 Has someone from Hamas do research independently? 00:30:19.446 --> 00:30:26.346 So that's not going to stop you. The second thing is Egypt is also not letting journalists in. 00:30:26.526 --> 00:30:30.746 Why have they not gone to the Egyptian media and press department? 00:30:31.126 --> 00:30:35.386 And they don't have an answer to that. Some will say, well, Israel has barred 00:30:35.386 --> 00:30:37.306 Egypt from allowing journalists in. 00:30:37.486 --> 00:30:41.466 I've never seen Egypt come out with something like that. 00:30:41.646 --> 00:30:46.886 To be honest, they sit here in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and all these other places, 00:30:47.426 --> 00:30:48.986 comfortably in Airbnbs. 00:30:50.366 --> 00:30:53.466 And they say they want to go into Gaza but they don't want to go in through 00:30:53.466 --> 00:30:56.386 Egypt through the tunnels or other way. 00:30:56.626 --> 00:30:58.946 They want to be let in and protected. 00:31:00.006 --> 00:31:05.426 By the IDF? Who knows? I would love journalists to go in. I really do think that. 00:31:06.406 --> 00:31:09.786 But it is a war zone. This is Israel's decision, righty or wrongly. 00:31:09.846 --> 00:31:11.626 But what about Egypt? Why didn't they try through Egypt? 00:31:12.826 --> 00:31:14.626 And what is the answer to that, do you think? 00:31:16.226 --> 00:31:20.106 It's never clear cut. Yeah. Interesting. 00:31:20.506 --> 00:31:24.466 But there's never been any pressure, international pressure by the international 00:31:24.466 --> 00:31:26.726 media organizations and their 00:31:26.726 --> 00:31:30.946 associations to let journalists into Gaza through Egypt, only on Israel. 00:31:33.086 --> 00:31:38.066 The other question I have to ask you is not as quite as dramatic, 00:31:38.066 --> 00:31:39.306 but I think it's important. 00:31:40.606 --> 00:31:45.526 And it goes back to the issue of the tech press. Do you think the tech press 00:31:45.526 --> 00:31:50.126 tells a story of certainly pre-war? and I'm guessing still now, 00:31:50.346 --> 00:31:54.646 the diversity of the Israeli tech sector. 00:31:55.046 --> 00:32:00.286 I made a joke about the 8,200 soldier going into the Israeli tech sector. 00:32:00.466 --> 00:32:07.206 But it was, again, one of those sectors where Israelis, Israeli Arabs, 00:32:07.626 --> 00:32:09.006 Palestinians, there's lots of 00:32:09.006 --> 00:32:12.906 companies where they worked together in the diversity of Israeli society. 00:32:14.347 --> 00:32:18.207 Well, unfortunately, I think that's an overblown description. Okay. 00:32:18.427 --> 00:32:24.447 I think that Israeli tech is, comparably to other tech industries that I've 00:32:24.447 --> 00:32:26.407 seen in the world, it's a little bit more diverse. 00:32:26.847 --> 00:32:28.607 There's perhaps more women in it. 00:32:29.827 --> 00:32:33.927 But no, it is a very homogenized, homogeness. 00:32:34.207 --> 00:32:38.547 It is, you know, unfortunately, and this is one of the things that I was working 00:32:38.547 --> 00:32:45.047 on for years here with Startup Nation, is to try and get more diversity, 00:32:45.287 --> 00:32:48.087 try and get more people outside of the center of the country, 00:32:48.227 --> 00:32:52.567 in Tel Aviv and Herzegovina, to get people into tech and into tech education 00:32:52.567 --> 00:32:56.987 from the north, from the south, to get more Arabs and ultra-Orthodox in. 00:32:58.147 --> 00:33:05.887 And unfortunately, that hasn't happened. So, no, I don't think there is any 00:33:05.887 --> 00:33:10.547 truth to reporting that this is a very diverse tech industry. 00:33:10.547 --> 00:33:14.387 It has, you know, a lot of strengths, but diverse. 00:33:15.107 --> 00:33:19.087 No, and most of the tech industry's power and money, and you can see it's all 00:33:19.087 --> 00:33:24.087 concentrated in cyber and big data and AI and all that talent, 00:33:24.267 --> 00:33:27.087 you know, usually comes from the same place. Interesting. 00:33:27.807 --> 00:33:31.967 I'm glad we could unpack some of that because there's a number of stories to tell. 00:33:31.967 --> 00:33:39.247 You know, perhaps, hopefully, as war stops, that could be a thing that is, 00:33:39.287 --> 00:33:42.927 you know, another story that is told and actually can improve as well. 00:33:43.667 --> 00:33:47.387 Yeah, I mean, even if the war doesn't stop, tech has to carry on. 00:33:47.487 --> 00:33:50.347 Otherwise, this country can't pay its bills. 00:33:51.007 --> 00:33:55.427 Yeah. Right. Well, you made the point in your pieces about the small number 00:33:55.427 --> 00:33:58.147 but significant financial impact of tech in Israel. 00:33:58.407 --> 00:34:02.907 Yeah, it's huge. It is the driver of the economy. And if anything done to hurt 00:34:02.907 --> 00:34:08.987 it, slow it down, keep its pipeline, its talent pipeline narrow, 00:34:09.527 --> 00:34:13.027 is going to choke this country's economy and security. 00:34:14.167 --> 00:34:18.127 And that's a real problem. But I think, again, your question earlier was interesting 00:34:18.127 --> 00:34:21.627 about what would make the global tech media write stories about Israel. 00:34:23.387 --> 00:34:29.007 Is what are the things of global importance that are happening here in tech 00:34:29.007 --> 00:34:32.227 that are not necessarily about the conflict? 00:34:33.227 --> 00:34:39.387 Sure. And that's where you have to dig and investigate and look kind of critically 00:34:39.387 --> 00:34:44.487 at what's really happening here because there are definitely signs of where 00:34:44.487 --> 00:34:48.327 things are happening here that are not happening anywhere else or not happening 00:34:48.327 --> 00:34:49.967 to that extent of excellence. 00:34:51.627 --> 00:34:57.247 For instance. Well, I'm really looking forward to reading all about them in Israel Tech Insider. 00:34:57.467 --> 00:35:00.247 You can read it at IsraelTechInsider.com. 00:35:00.987 --> 00:35:04.407 Amir, thank you so much for joining me. Is there anything else you want to flag 00:35:04.407 --> 00:35:06.627 up where people should follow you and keep in touch with you? 00:35:07.578 --> 00:35:12.238 I think at the moment, I'm signing up new people to the newsletter. 00:35:12.418 --> 00:35:16.098 And so, yeah, thanks for the shout out and thanks for this opportunity. 00:35:16.358 --> 00:35:22.938 And I encourage subscribers to chat with me on Substack and tell me what, 00:35:23.138 --> 00:35:27.938 you know, they think and what areas they're interested in. I'll keep an eye on. 00:35:28.618 --> 00:35:31.638 Fantastic uh head over to the edition.net to 00:35:31.638 --> 00:35:35.058 keep up with everything i'm doing i 00:35:35.058 --> 00:35:37.818 was thrilled to find out that the edition has 00:35:37.818 --> 00:35:40.678 been shortlisted at the publisher newsletter awards for 00:35:40.678 --> 00:35:45.538 one of the best uh specialist individual led newsletters so i'm thrilled about 00:35:45.538 --> 00:35:49.038 that i'll you know there's some big hitters in there so maybe we won't pop the 00:35:49.038 --> 00:35:52.718 champagne just yet but it was lovely to be shortlisted amongst those people 00:35:52.718 --> 00:35:57.118 thank you so much for thank you man thank you so much for listening to the show 00:35:57.118 --> 00:35:59.958 and supporting the newsletter and I'll see you all next week. 00:36:00.240 --> 00:36:09.137 Music.