WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.577 Hey, it's Charlotte. This is part two of my conversation with Rob Burley about 00:00:05.577 --> 00:00:11.457 political interviews, political TV, the future of podcasts, and all that kind of thing. 00:00:12.177 --> 00:00:16.317 Go back if you haven't listened to part one. Either way, I hope you enjoy the show. 00:00:16.400 --> 00:00:26.320 Music. 00:00:25.857 --> 00:00:29.597 You've been on the show before, and that was much closer to when the book was out. 00:00:30.017 --> 00:00:34.217 And so we really delved into this idea of the power of interviews, 00:00:34.377 --> 00:00:39.437 the importance of in-depth interviews, how that stuff has sort of changed, 00:00:39.657 --> 00:00:42.417 disappeared quite a lot in our modern media age. 00:00:43.557 --> 00:00:46.117 I mean, it hasn't got better since your book's come out, has it? 00:00:46.717 --> 00:00:48.117 Do you know what? I'm surprised, don't you? 00:00:48.157 --> 00:00:50.537 I thought that what with me banging on about it in podcasts, 00:00:50.737 --> 00:00:51.617 probably things would change. 00:00:52.157 --> 00:00:56.517 It's shocking that a conversation on my podcast hasn't profoundly changed the media landscape. 00:00:56.577 --> 00:00:59.337 I'm shocked, but I'll keep trying. Although I've got to tell you, 00:00:59.537 --> 00:01:03.417 I did do other podcasts as well as yours, including things like Adam Buxton, 00:01:03.497 --> 00:01:06.257 which is a very popular podcast. I've got to say that. That sounds outrageous. 00:01:06.797 --> 00:01:10.517 I know. So I did. I'm sorry about that. But I did do quite a lot. No, I did feel that. 00:01:10.897 --> 00:01:13.317 And at times people would be like, well, this is never going to happen. 00:01:13.537 --> 00:01:15.757 And I sort of felt like saying, well, I did say, you know, well, 00:01:15.837 --> 00:01:18.617 yeah, I mean, I'm probably just like wasting my time. 00:01:18.777 --> 00:01:22.297 I'm probably just banging my head against the brick wall. But what am I supposed to do? 00:01:22.757 --> 00:01:27.657 I think it's true that we've lost a lot here and that we should try and regain 00:01:27.657 --> 00:01:30.917 it. And if we just have a bit of gumption about us, we might be like, 00:01:31.017 --> 00:01:33.537 for example, here's the thing. Can I use an example? Is that right? 00:01:34.097 --> 00:01:40.417 So here we are about to have, well, we are in the middle of policy decisions 00:01:40.417 --> 00:01:42.377 being made about AI, right? Yep. 00:01:43.597 --> 00:01:49.637 That being pushed all around by very short-term considerations around the relationship 00:01:49.637 --> 00:01:53.797 with the Trump administration, all those things. They seem to be quite influenced by that, right? 00:01:55.037 --> 00:01:58.897 We need to actually have a proper conversation about ai 00:01:58.897 --> 00:02:01.697 in the way we precisely didn't have about 00:02:01.697 --> 00:02:06.117 globalization back in the day we need to you know when we think that these things 00:02:06.117 --> 00:02:09.697 are going to really change people's lives and we need to have proper grown-up 00:02:09.697 --> 00:02:13.117 conversations with them about them rather than six minute conversations about 00:02:13.117 --> 00:02:17.337 so you know ai is you're going to do jobs and then you're over and before it's 00:02:17.337 --> 00:02:20.937 before you know it's done and it's like you mean on tv yeah on tv. 00:02:22.717 --> 00:02:25.357 TV is where it first appears. 00:02:26.604 --> 00:02:30.904 But it's eminently, you know, eminently sort of shareable and cut up a ball 00:02:30.904 --> 00:02:34.924 because, like, actually longer interviews are going to get you better moments. 00:02:35.204 --> 00:02:38.944 I mean, the Boris Johnson, famous Boris Johnson, not knowing about the GATT 00:02:38.944 --> 00:02:43.444 treaty when he pretended he did with Hilarious. With Andrew Neil. With Andrew Neil, yeah. 00:02:44.104 --> 00:02:46.424 It's in there. It features in there. It would make a great movie. 00:02:47.244 --> 00:02:54.204 Anyway, it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had the previous sort of six 00:02:54.204 --> 00:02:56.364 or seven minutes to build up to it. You see, you know. 00:02:56.604 --> 00:03:02.424 And then you get it anyway. And so it's an amazing sort of thing you can share on social media. 00:03:02.544 --> 00:03:06.164 It feels very current, but you only achieve it by doing the proper journalism. 00:03:06.444 --> 00:03:09.084 But anyway, I mean, even if it's high minded, where's our conversation about 00:03:09.084 --> 00:03:10.784 things that are going to change our lives? 00:03:11.164 --> 00:03:14.144 You know, where are they happening? And are they happening in a way that's going 00:03:14.144 --> 00:03:16.884 to hold politicians to account? Because I'm already hearing it. 00:03:18.184 --> 00:03:21.224 Yeah. And you've worked on shows where that's tried to happen. 00:03:21.224 --> 00:03:26.744 And that famous interview with Boris Johnson where, I mean, there's so much. 00:03:26.864 --> 00:03:30.344 I could talk to a whole show about that because the thing that Boris Johnson 00:03:30.344 --> 00:03:33.904 got so wrong in that interview was he thought he would catch out Andrew Neil, 00:03:34.184 --> 00:03:39.704 which as a starting premise is a bad idea to do. Talk about hubris. 00:03:41.844 --> 00:03:48.084 For American listeners, Andrew Neil, he was chairman of the Spectator. 00:03:48.084 --> 00:03:53.444 He also had a very successful, fun couple of politics shows on the BBC, 00:03:53.444 --> 00:03:56.144 of which you were involved in at least one, weren't you, or both? 00:03:57.032 --> 00:04:01.572 Both, yeah, in some ways, yeah. Yeah, and so he always, in the run-up to general 00:04:01.572 --> 00:04:05.152 elections, would interview the party leaders if they weren't too scared to turn 00:04:05.152 --> 00:04:06.892 up. Again, Mr Boris Johnson. 00:04:09.192 --> 00:04:13.552 So as part of the Brexit process, he, as you would expect, interviewed Boris 00:04:13.552 --> 00:04:20.132 Johnson, who decided to try and... I can't remember what the paragraph is now, 00:04:20.332 --> 00:04:23.792 but he sort of tried to quote this bit of... 5B, it's 5B. 00:04:24.052 --> 00:04:27.092 To which Andrew Neil famously replied, what about 00:04:27.092 --> 00:04:32.152 paragraph 5c mr johnson cue silence 00:04:32.152 --> 00:04:35.012 as i said it's almost like the the bird stopped singing 00:04:35.012 --> 00:04:39.332 the stop the clock stopped the traffic outside outside the studio is just parked 00:04:39.332 --> 00:04:43.312 up and we waited to see how boris was going to answer this one because he just 00:04:43.312 --> 00:04:47.132 absolutely made the own his own bear trap and you won't and you don't do that 00:04:47.132 --> 00:04:51.152 if you don't you know if you don't walk it if you don't do a lot of work preparing 00:04:51.152 --> 00:04:53.872 and if you don't walk them gently through this and do 00:04:53.952 --> 00:04:56.792 it properly and people say oh it's 00:04:56.792 --> 00:04:59.532 american listeners may you know they'll know the 00:04:59.532 --> 00:05:02.412 term of gotcha that's gotcha journalism i just 00:05:02.412 --> 00:05:05.172 don't buy that it's not gotcha journalism it's actually serious journalism what 00:05:05.172 --> 00:05:08.332 you were told by that inability to uh 00:05:08.332 --> 00:05:11.092 to answer the question was that all that stuff he was 00:05:11.092 --> 00:05:14.312 saying which was designed to give the impression of uh 00:05:14.312 --> 00:05:17.692 understanding of the complexities was um completely 00:05:17.692 --> 00:05:21.052 uh shallow and completely superficial and and amounted 00:05:21.052 --> 00:05:23.992 to nothing if that isn't an important thing to tell you um you 00:05:23.992 --> 00:05:27.192 know i don't know what is and if actually the interview was actually um to 00:05:27.192 --> 00:05:30.492 be the prime minister because it was the it was the leadership election the 00:05:30.492 --> 00:05:35.912 tory party in 20 yeah the tory party in 2019 and the uh tory electorate watched 00:05:35.912 --> 00:05:39.272 it they listened to jeremy hunt at the same time not getting into the same sorts 00:05:39.272 --> 00:05:42.672 of problems and of course they chose boris johnson to be the prime minister 00:05:42.672 --> 00:05:47.712 the rest is history yes um because because Because the point also, 00:05:47.952 --> 00:05:50.152 you use those words shallows in Fisher, and that, of course. 00:05:50.432 --> 00:05:52.552 Was always the criticism thrown at Boris Johnson. 00:05:52.752 --> 00:05:57.452 And he tried to quote this paragraph to show he knew the detail. 00:05:58.932 --> 00:05:59.712 Exactly, yeah. 00:06:00.687 --> 00:06:04.447 But I mean, that's just one example of one interview. 00:06:04.587 --> 00:06:07.567 The other famous one, of course, again, you touch on in the book is the famous 00:06:07.567 --> 00:06:10.567 Jeremy Paxman one where he asked another conservative leader, 00:06:10.567 --> 00:06:13.167 Michael Howard, who's the Home Secretary at the time. 00:06:14.667 --> 00:06:17.807 He's just been running for leadership. He that was also running for leadership 00:06:17.807 --> 00:06:20.267 where he is asked the same question. 00:06:20.487 --> 00:06:23.287 I've forgotten the number of times, but over and over again, 00:06:23.367 --> 00:06:25.087 because he just refuses to answer it. 00:06:25.647 --> 00:06:30.707 And those are very famous in British TV history. but we're we're not really 00:06:30.707 --> 00:06:34.547 having those moments anymore because as you said the interviews are not given 00:06:34.547 --> 00:06:39.507 that breathing space are they now no so you have what you end up having is sort of, 00:06:40.067 --> 00:06:43.627 either just a completely fruitless exchange which 00:06:43.627 --> 00:06:46.547 is all you have another oh i saw fruitless but 00:06:46.547 --> 00:06:50.127 all you have which is just like it doesn't really go anywhere nobody says anything or 00:06:50.127 --> 00:06:53.227 you have um the presenter thinking 00:06:53.227 --> 00:06:56.207 well i've only got a certain amount of time so let's be let's be hardcore 00:06:56.207 --> 00:06:58.967 on something and and and sort of really push it and 00:06:58.967 --> 00:07:02.227 it's and that's often that that's often embarrassing and 00:07:02.227 --> 00:07:05.527 doesn't work and it's just it feels performative you 00:07:05.527 --> 00:07:08.707 know we actually need time to have a conversation about 00:07:08.707 --> 00:07:11.727 what we're going to do about things that's the best way yeah 00:07:11.727 --> 00:07:15.367 and now I know you're very critical of the way politicians approach 00:07:15.367 --> 00:07:18.727 these kind of interviews we you know with their set lines 00:07:18.727 --> 00:07:21.667 the set lines to take the key 00:07:21.667 --> 00:07:24.467 points to get over that the press officers written down and told them about 00:07:24.467 --> 00:07:27.647 in the car on the way to the interview and all of that but do 00:07:27.647 --> 00:07:32.507 you also blame people in television yeah i mean i think first the first people 00:07:32.507 --> 00:07:35.547 to blame are the people who axed all the programs that lasted uh you know longer 00:07:35.547 --> 00:07:39.307 than sort of you know 15 minutes so i mean for the first you know so let's have 00:07:39.307 --> 00:07:44.967 a look at what about tim davey well that's he you know for example i mean so we had the we had the um uh. 00:07:45.407 --> 00:07:48.287 We had the andrew neal show was a uh on at seven 00:07:48.287 --> 00:07:51.047 o'clock in the evening in the in the 00:07:51.047 --> 00:07:53.827 year before covid came people might not remember it too well because 00:07:53.827 --> 00:07:57.027 it was cut off then at that point when covid came and 00:07:57.027 --> 00:08:00.007 then they took that they took the opportunity to axe 00:08:00.007 --> 00:08:02.727 it all together the reason it existed was because the 00:08:02.727 --> 00:08:09.427 previous dg had tony hall director general of the bbc yeah sorry he he had um 00:08:09.427 --> 00:08:14.147 after the job after that boris johnson interview he was so happy and amazed 00:08:14.147 --> 00:08:17.267 and thought it was so wonderful that he thought we need a vehicle for andrew 00:08:17.267 --> 00:08:20.027 neal to do these sorts of interviews to which, yeah, we do. 00:08:20.167 --> 00:08:24.587 And he gave us one. And that was the one that Tim Davey then axed as soon as he possibly could. 00:08:24.927 --> 00:08:30.287 So, you know, it's that to broadcasters and their poor management and their 00:08:30.287 --> 00:08:33.187 lack of understanding of what matters, if the BBC aren't going to do it, 00:08:33.387 --> 00:08:36.287 they then went to cut hard talk. So God knows what's going on there. 00:08:36.667 --> 00:08:41.307 So there's that. But no one's really doing this in that space in the same way. 00:08:41.847 --> 00:08:45.227 And you've got to blame. You've got to blame them. And if... 00:08:47.580 --> 00:08:50.780 Presenters are too stupidly aggressive and 00:08:50.780 --> 00:08:53.560 mini paxman's and all that stuff then that's not 00:08:53.560 --> 00:08:56.340 very good either but i guess it's it's born 00:08:56.340 --> 00:08:59.120 of the idea well we've only got six minutes we've got let's be going to make an impact with 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.780 something so they go and pre-prepared to do that do you 00:09:01.780 --> 00:09:04.860 think it all comes in this kind of tiktok social 00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:07.760 media era where they want their clip that goes 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:10.540 out on instagram and goes viral and that 00:09:10.540 --> 00:09:15.540 makes it harder to have the longer conversations and unpick things yeah i mean 00:09:15.540 --> 00:09:20.520 yeah it does but i mean no one's trying to do everyone's given up right so the 00:09:20.520 --> 00:09:25.300 broadcasters have given up they don't think it matters and the politicians will 00:09:25.300 --> 00:09:28.300 only do short interviews they'll stipulate we're doing six or seven minutes. 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.260 And then the presenters are like well what am i going to get out of that well yeah 00:09:32.260 --> 00:09:34.980 let's just do a few questions about this and the other 00:09:34.980 --> 00:09:38.100 just trot through the stories and the papers and and 00:09:38.100 --> 00:09:40.780 then maybe i should sort of you know make some wild accusation about them 00:09:40.780 --> 00:09:44.120 being out of touch or whatever it might be and hopefully i'll get clipped 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.780 ask them about the price of milk and see if they 00:09:46.780 --> 00:09:49.640 can't answer it exactly that exactly that 00:09:49.640 --> 00:09:52.300 so yeah it's it's it's it's what 00:09:52.300 --> 00:09:55.500 it sort of ended up being and what's irritating as well as politicians they need 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:58.760 to understand that people hate this i mean 00:09:58.760 --> 00:10:01.360 they really do they really hate it i you know i have done a lot 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.440 quite a lot of events down these couple of years and regular 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:07.160 people are just like they're sick of it they're so sick of 00:10:07.160 --> 00:10:10.300 being people not talking in this bizarre way 00:10:10.300 --> 00:10:13.400 and that doesn't communicate anything about things 00:10:13.400 --> 00:10:16.120 intentionally doesn't communicate anything yeah yeah it's an 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.800 exercise in saying nothing and the people of course the 00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:23.160 people around the politicians so that labor won the election right so that's 00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:28.220 that they all think they're geniuses for maintaining this approach uh in fact 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:31.700 they should be looking at what would it what would the prize be if they could 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:36.980 actually break out of this approach and actually be authentic and communicate 00:10:36.980 --> 00:10:37.800 more directly with people, 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:40.280 you know, I think they're missing a trick. 00:10:40.910 --> 00:10:43.990 Does Donald Trump work that out? Just as you're describing this, 00:10:44.130 --> 00:10:47.250 I'm sort of thinking, has Trump got this right? I mean, that sentence makes 00:10:47.250 --> 00:10:48.870 me feel a bit sick in my mouth to say it. 00:10:50.310 --> 00:10:55.770 I know. I think he has. I think that's absolutely what you get. 00:10:56.170 --> 00:10:57.570 In fact, he asked the question. 00:10:58.030 --> 00:11:02.670 It might be in a bizarre way, but he will answer the question. 00:11:02.870 --> 00:11:05.030 I mean, Farage similarly will answer the question. 00:11:06.010 --> 00:11:09.130 I'm not saying he's not aware of some of the things he should say or shouldn't say, 00:11:09.210 --> 00:11:12.930 but the answer is, other part the mainstream non-populist 00:11:12.930 --> 00:11:15.550 parties if you want to call them that like why are they leaving all the 00:11:15.550 --> 00:11:18.610 good tunes to to the populists why don't they communicate more 00:11:18.610 --> 00:11:22.130 directly why don't they try and engage people by being just ordinary 00:11:22.130 --> 00:11:26.770 and and and no one speaks like this in the real worlds why do they do it so 00:11:26.770 --> 00:11:31.670 yeah they it helps it helps donald trump that he just he's straight talking 00:11:31.670 --> 00:11:34.990 and tells you what he thinks or at least gives the impression of you can argue 00:11:34.990 --> 00:11:36.230 there's another cynical element 00:11:36.230 --> 00:11:40.370 with him and well it's like if you get this i think is that is that um, 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:46.430 a comedian I forgot his name George Burns I think it was is it about authenticity 00:11:46.430 --> 00:11:50.450 if you can fake that you've got it made so that's what it is, 00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:53.670 My sort of final question are. 00:11:55.310 --> 00:11:59.570 Podcasts or can podcasts the much longer form ones, 00:12:00.890 --> 00:12:05.970 be a solution to this we saw go back to America, 00:12:07.250 --> 00:12:10.330 the Republicans did a really good 00:12:10.330 --> 00:12:13.790 job of getting into that longer form podcast space 00:12:13.790 --> 00:12:19.070 and the democrats since have been having a meltdown about their podcast strategy 00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:25.110 from what i can tell um you laugh and you're right to laugh but is there a conversation 00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:29.510 these newer formats of media might actually help bring us back to the type of 00:12:29.510 --> 00:12:31.250 media you're advocating for, 00:12:32.142 --> 00:12:35.102 uh no i don't think so uh this is 00:12:35.102 --> 00:12:38.062 not to say that i don't think podcasts are uh aren't valuable 00:12:38.062 --> 00:12:40.942 because i think they are valuable and they're really really 00:12:40.942 --> 00:12:43.682 enjoyable things and they're deep and they go 00:12:43.682 --> 00:12:46.602 along for a long time and that's really good but what we don't what's 00:12:46.602 --> 00:12:49.982 not present in those conversations is is is real scrutiny 00:12:49.982 --> 00:12:52.642 of the policy positions that then they 00:12:52.642 --> 00:12:55.462 don't tend to be that sort of conversation and that's why probably you 00:12:55.462 --> 00:12:58.102 know donald trump was happy to go on there for however many hours he was on 00:12:58.102 --> 00:13:01.042 with joe rogan you know it wasn't really a challenging 00:13:01.042 --> 00:13:05.102 environment but and actually that's because apart from people who aren't interested 00:13:05.102 --> 00:13:08.502 in being challenging it i don't think we'd like it as much if it was if it was 00:13:08.502 --> 00:13:11.562 if it was more confrontational and challenging and essentially there does have 00:13:11.562 --> 00:13:16.702 to be a bit of that pressure and the intention in order to actually test people 00:13:16.702 --> 00:13:20.182 so what you end up with is what we have is we have people in politics. 00:13:21.142 --> 00:13:24.842 Now who um you know go out there on the media and don't communicate and then 00:13:24.842 --> 00:13:28.642 they don't really say anything and reveal anything and then you won't be able 00:13:28.642 --> 00:13:31.402 to stop them after they leave office they'll Beyond that, every podcaster can 00:13:31.402 --> 00:13:32.382 possibly be on. Yes, yes. 00:13:32.582 --> 00:13:34.802 Just like opening up about what they were feeling at the time. 00:13:34.882 --> 00:13:36.682 You feel like, why can't we just have a little bit of that? 00:13:37.022 --> 00:13:41.382 How many times – I heard John Major speak in public once. 00:13:41.802 --> 00:13:47.522 Right. And you're like, who is this charming, engaging, funny man? 00:13:48.322 --> 00:13:51.622 Yeah, he is. That's an interesting one, that. He's a funny guy. 00:13:51.742 --> 00:13:54.582 I do think with John Major, to be honest, I do think that's – I'm not sure it's 00:13:54.582 --> 00:13:57.662 an important thing, but he might have been what you were affected by. 00:13:57.702 --> 00:13:59.742 He was very, very charismatic in person. 00:14:00.962 --> 00:14:04.002 TV just killed his vibe. His vibe was strong. 00:14:04.762 --> 00:14:08.082 And it wasn't present on TV. He was just very boring. I don't know what Axum 00:14:08.082 --> 00:14:11.842 was. He's very boring. And yet, when you saw him up close, 00:14:12.868 --> 00:14:17.548 Kind of compelling, wasn't he? When he was speaking, when I saw him, 00:14:17.628 --> 00:14:20.268 he was. It was really enjoyable. Bizarre. 00:14:21.888 --> 00:14:25.168 So I'm so grateful to this. I actually slightly disagree with you. 00:14:25.208 --> 00:14:28.808 I am going to be a bit confrontational. Oh, go on. Let's have an argument. Go on. 00:14:29.548 --> 00:14:36.148 Yeah. Because I think podcasts, particularly YouTube, can bring some of that 00:14:36.148 --> 00:14:41.428 scrutiny back, but it does need what you're talking about, which is the people making the stuff. 00:14:42.168 --> 00:14:44.648 Yeah. to take that responsibility on. 00:14:46.708 --> 00:14:50.388 And I agree with you. There are not a number of big shows at the moment that 00:14:50.388 --> 00:14:51.408 don't, but there are some. 00:14:52.508 --> 00:14:59.448 If Piers Morgan was here, woe betide, he would undoubtedly. Piers Morgan doesn't do, he doesn't do. 00:15:00.308 --> 00:15:03.688 Do you call that testing? He would. Do you call that testing kind of forensic? 00:15:03.968 --> 00:15:06.748 Yeah, he might. I think he's wrong. I mean, he's made his career on just being 00:15:06.748 --> 00:15:12.948 a blowhard, really. I mean, it's just, you know, it's not serious, 00:15:12.968 --> 00:15:16.168 I don't think, in the way that it approaches this stuff. 00:15:16.308 --> 00:15:19.788 So I don't know if he's the best you've got, then let's go back to the drawing board. 00:15:20.928 --> 00:15:26.828 What I do think is that the format and the success of the shows that are out 00:15:26.828 --> 00:15:32.368 in the podcasting space, I think show that you could have those kind of conversations. 00:15:32.948 --> 00:15:36.888 Okay, so all I'm saying, I hear that and I'm aware of it, But I suppose I'm 00:15:36.888 --> 00:15:41.708 just I would I was just are there ones that are successful who don't do the 00:15:41.708 --> 00:15:44.608 Peirce style kind of shock and awe approach? 00:15:44.688 --> 00:15:49.328 Because that's why people love him, because he enjoy him because of that. That's what he does. 00:15:49.488 --> 00:15:52.948 I don't happen to be a big fan of it, but it's what people I understand why people like it. 00:15:53.088 --> 00:15:58.008 But is anyone doing that, doing those spaces and succeeding without doing that sort of thing? 00:15:59.140 --> 00:16:01.460 Look, not at the moment. I think that's probably right. I mean, 00:16:01.640 --> 00:16:06.520 I'm sure if you dig deep into the podcast archives, there'll be people making a quite nice living. 00:16:06.760 --> 00:16:11.080 But are, you know, we saw the politicians going on, you know, 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.820 Joe Biden did it in his time, go on quite, you know, lifestyle podcasts and 00:16:15.820 --> 00:16:18.260 those kind of things. That was their strategy. 00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:21.800 Yeah i'm just wondering i see no reason 00:16:21.800 --> 00:16:24.520 that the podcast format can't do that and in fact i think it's 00:16:24.520 --> 00:16:28.820 more likely to be able to do that than traditional tv 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:32.260 with its 47 minute limit no i agree yeah 00:16:32.260 --> 00:16:35.300 you're right about that i mean i think you're right that the freedom of that should lead 00:16:35.300 --> 00:16:38.160 to this i'm just saying it needs everyone to say everyone to 00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:41.100 politicians to say who are in office to say 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:44.320 okay i'm going to come on and we'll do 45 minutes 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.020 or an hour whatever it is and yes you can going to ask me about 00:16:47.020 --> 00:16:49.760 stuff and I'm going to engage with you because the thing is we're so used to 00:16:49.760 --> 00:16:52.760 them engaging on the podcast that's why we love it because they people engage whoever 00:16:52.760 --> 00:16:55.600 they might be they actually engage yeah this conversation is 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.580 not a million miles different to the conversation you and I would have 00:16:58.580 --> 00:17:01.780 and have had in the pub yeah well completely so it's it's 00:17:01.780 --> 00:17:04.660 it's exactly that and people like that sense of oh that was a side 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:07.420 of uh you know politician x or y that 00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:10.280 I didn't know existed and maybe they're quite actually all right 00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:13.000 now that's long after you know you can you 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.820 can actually be elected so it's like i say it's about it 00:17:15.820 --> 00:17:18.640 i don't think it's magically going to appear on there unless unless there's a decision 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.880 made that it's good to do that and politicians 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.760 you know and i'll be delighted if it becomes if 00:17:24.760 --> 00:17:27.600 if we can forget the channels and all the 00:17:27.600 --> 00:17:31.520 regular ways of doing it and it's done on uh youtube in that manner that's 00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:34.800 proper journalism that's really seriously done then great 00:17:34.800 --> 00:17:41.100 i'm just a bit suspect i'm just not sure it will well once we start having best. 00:17:41.100 --> 00:17:49.240 Apple podcast charts topping shows that are powerful interview shows i look 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.900 forward to having you back to tell me why i was right and you were wrong if 00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:53.800 that happens i'll be delighted, 00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:56.820 i'm looking forward to you starting the show. 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.980 Where where can people keep up with all the other stuff you do and well as i 00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:08.640 mentioned you can watch brian and mag if you're in the uk on channel 4.com is 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.160 it available outside the uk yet, 00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:13.660 I think I mean I don't know what's happening but I think I'm hoping it will 00:18:13.660 --> 00:18:18.540 appear I know nothing about it but you know someone will be taking around globally 00:18:18.540 --> 00:18:22.900 so that's I think a process that happens it's probably ongoing yeah but for 00:18:22.900 --> 00:18:27.400 now if you're in the UK you can watch episodes one and two on channel4.com where 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:28.820 else can people keep up with you Rob, 00:18:29.982 --> 00:18:33.842 Well, I suppose you can keep up with me on X, as I used to be Twitter. 00:18:33.982 --> 00:18:37.042 I mean, but I don't go on as much as I used to go on. Do you go on as much as 00:18:37.042 --> 00:18:39.042 you used to go on? No, I'm much more on Blue Sky. 00:18:39.222 --> 00:18:42.342 I'm at Charlotte A. Henry across social media, but I'm much more of a Blue Sky 00:18:42.342 --> 00:18:46.642 person. Actually, I'm going to do this. You're here. You and I talk about sport the whole time. 00:18:49.222 --> 00:18:55.342 So we'd recorded this on Monday, the 14th of April. So less than about 18 hours 00:18:55.342 --> 00:18:57.502 after Rory McIlroy won the Open. 00:18:58.922 --> 00:19:03.442 That it playing out live on blue sky was the first time blue sky had felt like 00:19:03.442 --> 00:19:07.942 good twitter to me i don't know if you were sensible had gone to bed or don't 00:19:07.942 --> 00:19:11.862 care about golf but i can't buy golf i think it should be abolished um for lots 00:19:11.862 --> 00:19:15.422 of reasons um but you know so i'm sorry i'm sorry but no you're saying it was 00:19:15.422 --> 00:19:17.102 doing it was able to have enough of that, 00:19:18.142 --> 00:19:21.762 like you and i have had lots of experiences during football matches right where 00:19:21.762 --> 00:19:25.002 you're watching the game but also feel like you're having a conversation with loads of people, 00:19:26.082 --> 00:19:27.442 about the game on Twitter. 00:19:27.642 --> 00:19:30.902 How many goals Spurs are losing by, or whatever it might happen to be. 00:19:31.022 --> 00:19:32.982 Thank you for joining the show, Rob. We'll be back then. 00:19:34.442 --> 00:19:36.842 I actually think it happens the most in international tournaments. 00:19:37.382 --> 00:19:40.562 Yes, I agree. That used to be a really fun thing, right? 00:19:41.402 --> 00:19:44.382 There's so much I miss about the Twitter thing. It wasn't great. 00:19:44.622 --> 00:19:47.102 There's no reason why Blue Sky... The problem is, for example, 00:19:47.282 --> 00:19:48.602 I have got a Blue Sky thing. 00:19:49.462 --> 00:19:52.862 Is it just me, or does it always log you out, by the way? One problem I find 00:19:52.862 --> 00:19:54.842 with it is, I go on there and it's logged me out. Yeah, it does sometimes. 00:19:55.002 --> 00:19:57.862 I'm trying to find you on this so I can include the link in the show notes. 00:19:58.082 --> 00:20:02.222 But you'll notice if you do the contrast in the numbers of followers, right? 00:20:02.302 --> 00:20:05.922 I think it's a thousand or something there as against about 40,000 I've got 00:20:05.922 --> 00:20:08.122 on what was Twitter. So I'm hardly going to, 00:20:09.097 --> 00:20:11.837 it's funny because migrate but they're not mine they're not 00:20:11.837 --> 00:20:14.797 my it's not my data or whatever is it the dream would be to migrate your 00:20:14.797 --> 00:20:18.617 own followers but yes but the thing is 00:20:18.617 --> 00:20:22.457 i think this is a whole other conversation uh blue 00:20:22.457 --> 00:20:26.237 sky is more effective actually bringing people to your content is that right 00:20:26.237 --> 00:20:29.077 well i should i i have done it a bit and i've done some stuff on there but i 00:20:29.077 --> 00:20:32.597 need to make it sort of second nature to put stuff out there on there as well 00:20:32.597 --> 00:20:37.657 because it was great it was really fun the twitter golden era i found yeah yeah 00:20:37.657 --> 00:20:38.817 that's just what it felt a 00:20:38.897 --> 00:20:42.217 bit like about half past 11, quarters of 12 last night. I had that vibe. 00:20:43.577 --> 00:20:46.937 Again, Rob, thank you so much for joining me. I'll include the link so you can 00:20:46.937 --> 00:20:52.497 watch Brian and Maggie whenever you want, wherever you want. 00:20:53.017 --> 00:20:57.897 As I say, I'm Charlotte Henry and I'm at Charlotte Henry across social media. 00:20:58.117 --> 00:21:02.177 Do head over to theedition.net where you can read the blogs, 00:21:02.257 --> 00:21:07.257 listen to past podcasts and listen and sign up for the paid newsletter, 00:21:07.257 --> 00:21:11.677 which really does help keep everything on the road. 00:21:12.257 --> 00:21:16.757 I'm even doing, because I realised whilst doing a newsletter that I've actually 00:21:16.757 --> 00:21:18.677 been doing this for three years now. I didn't realise. 00:21:19.097 --> 00:21:23.837 I missed my own third birthday. So I'm doing a bit of a 30% discount for a couple of weeks as well. 00:21:23.997 --> 00:21:27.817 I'll include that in the show notes. So I do hope you get involved in that. 00:21:28.237 --> 00:21:30.017 Thank you, Rob. And I'll see you all next week. 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:39.575 Music.