WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.520 Music. 00:00:09.365 --> 00:00:14.645 Welcome to The Edition podcast. I'm Charlotte Henry and we cover the intersection 00:00:14.645 --> 00:00:20.385 of culture, media and sport on the podcast, on the newsletter and on the website at theedition.net. 00:00:20.705 --> 00:00:25.125 I'm very excited this week because I have an old friend, old sparring partner 00:00:25.125 --> 00:00:29.545 and a very experienced, fantastic journalist in Rob Burley joining me. Hello Rob, how are you? 00:00:29.965 --> 00:00:32.705 I'm good, how are you doing? I'm very good. Now, 00:00:32.905 --> 00:00:36.825 your career is too extensive for me to break it down too quickly, 00:00:36.825 --> 00:00:39.425 but just in 30 seconds or so tell people all the 00:00:39.425 --> 00:00:42.365 fantastic stuff you've done oh gosh uh 00:00:42.365 --> 00:00:45.505 well i did i've done lots of political interviews and political programs i 00:00:45.505 --> 00:00:49.605 used to run the political programs at the bbc i used to run the channel itv 00:00:49.605 --> 00:00:54.145 sorry the itv uh political program back in the day and then i ran the andrew 00:00:54.145 --> 00:00:58.805 marshall uh so lots of tv that's just about political interviews that's really 00:00:58.805 --> 00:01:04.465 been my main thing and i've written a book uh or two about said political interviews 00:01:04.905 --> 00:01:07.485 Yes, about lying and political interviews and all sorts of things. 00:01:07.525 --> 00:01:10.745 And it's about the good life of Margot and the good life and about pop music 00:01:10.745 --> 00:01:11.845 and all those things are in there as well. 00:01:11.945 --> 00:01:16.205 So it's a mixture of things. But also it's got a lot about Margaret Thatcher 00:01:16.205 --> 00:01:17.985 and Brian Warden in it. It does. 00:01:18.225 --> 00:01:21.125 It does. I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I confess I haven't had a chance to 00:01:21.125 --> 00:01:25.585 sit down and watch the two-part drama yet, which is – I know, it's shocking. I know. 00:01:26.385 --> 00:01:30.705 This is the kind of poor preparation you'd never allow your presenters to do. 00:01:31.625 --> 00:01:34.925 No, so we really need to stamp it out, to be honest. Yeah, quite right. 00:01:35.345 --> 00:01:38.705 But there's no argument there. 00:01:39.945 --> 00:01:44.125 But I love this chapter of the book because you kind of open with this whole 00:01:44.125 --> 00:01:48.645 sequence about Brian Walden and Margaret Thatcher. 00:01:48.765 --> 00:01:53.145 Now, just for American listeners and others who don't quite know what the context 00:01:53.145 --> 00:01:56.585 is, obviously, people know Margaret Thatcher was the British Prime Minister for a very long time. 00:01:57.005 --> 00:02:01.325 Brian Walden, trying to put into perspective what kind of figure he was in TV. 00:02:02.154 --> 00:02:04.834 So he was uh before he was in tv he 00:02:04.834 --> 00:02:07.734 was an mp for the labor mp right so 00:02:07.734 --> 00:02:10.534 he had he had a certain amount of you know fame and uh you 00:02:10.534 --> 00:02:13.454 know people knew he was in politics because he was a very able um 00:02:13.454 --> 00:02:18.974 debater and uh also he was interesting because clearly he was not um he was 00:02:18.974 --> 00:02:22.554 not moving in the same direction as the labor party in the in the 60s and early 00:02:22.554 --> 00:02:26.214 70s and then for reasons that have never really been explained it was a master 00:02:26.214 --> 00:02:30.414 stroke the um the people that we can at london weekend television who made this 00:02:30.414 --> 00:02:33.414 show called weekend world which was presented by peter j, 00:02:34.034 --> 00:02:36.914 um who was off to become the actual ambassador to 00:02:36.914 --> 00:02:39.894 the to the u.s uh instead of having stepped 00:02:39.894 --> 00:02:43.014 down from that job which shows just how intellectually power about powerhouse 00:02:43.014 --> 00:02:46.994 you have to be to present this show weekend world yeah they they they turned 00:02:46.994 --> 00:02:51.934 to um brian walden i said you mr labor and labor mp seems to be a bit disaffected 00:02:51.934 --> 00:02:55.014 would you like to come and present this show you have no experience but we'll 00:02:55.014 --> 00:02:58.154 give it a go and um it was a masterstroke because as i say 00:02:58.574 --> 00:03:01.974 he was, because of his intellectual ability, he was able to handle this show. 00:03:02.294 --> 00:03:04.914 Let me say something about the show, Weekend World. It's a really extraordinary 00:03:04.914 --> 00:03:08.714 program. Yeah, it's a kind of amazing program. It was devised by John Burt, 00:03:08.834 --> 00:03:09.994 along with a guy called David Cox. 00:03:10.674 --> 00:03:16.014 And it was trying to, you know, elevate the sort of content you might have on 00:03:16.014 --> 00:03:20.434 television to, you know, as higher an intellectual level as you could probably stand. 00:03:21.174 --> 00:03:25.394 And for me, that meant as a kid, watching this program, it was on at lunchtime on a Sunday, 00:03:25.914 --> 00:03:28.634 which i i found completely inexplicable because it 00:03:28.634 --> 00:03:31.614 was so complicated um but it was all about politics and 00:03:31.614 --> 00:03:34.874 it was done in a very very very thorough way it was done with interviews and 00:03:34.874 --> 00:03:38.414 films and brian warden was the chief interviewer and he was incredible he was 00:03:38.414 --> 00:03:43.534 just really watchable he was from west bromwich he spoke with us like this um 00:03:43.534 --> 00:03:49.034 he was not your average bear really and to be on to be on a big show uh but 00:03:49.034 --> 00:03:52.134 that's what he did and um and he started that job in 1977, 00:03:52.634 --> 00:03:55.934 and his very first guest on his very first show was Margaret Thatcher, 00:03:55.974 --> 00:04:00.714 who then had been the leader of the Conservative Party in opposition for about two years. 00:04:02.194 --> 00:04:04.854 As you do now just to give a bit 00:04:04.854 --> 00:04:07.834 of further context in case you're wondering listeners 00:04:07.834 --> 00:04:11.114 yes rob is as much of a tv nerd in person as 00:04:11.114 --> 00:04:13.934 he sounds like on this show and that's why we love having him on 00:04:13.934 --> 00:04:16.634 um but just to give 00:04:16.634 --> 00:04:19.474 a bit of context how many people do you know would tune 00:04:19.474 --> 00:04:22.594 into this kind of thing on a sunday i haven't 00:04:22.594 --> 00:04:25.374 got the number but you know it must it must have been you 00:04:25.374 --> 00:04:28.254 know a million plus i think i think that's my but 00:04:28.254 --> 00:04:31.494 certainly was when i was there a few years later doing the same show editing 00:04:31.494 --> 00:04:36.894 the the successor show effectively to that show yeah uh which is you know for 00:04:36.894 --> 00:04:39.554 me it's a bit of a thrill i used to watch that show and i got to edit the one 00:04:39.554 --> 00:04:45.334 that came next um but we used to get about one and a half 1.7 depending you 00:04:45.334 --> 00:04:47.834 know so i think that it would have it would have had more than that because 00:04:47.834 --> 00:04:50.674 it was again you know there was nothing else on, 00:04:51.134 --> 00:04:54.594 so if you wanted to watch television if it was raining uh or even if it was 00:04:54.594 --> 00:04:57.374 sunny in my case and you wanted to watch television you know that was what you 00:04:57.374 --> 00:05:00.714 had on sunday lunchtime so it must have got a lot of numbers yeah i was gonna 00:05:00.714 --> 00:05:03.694 say i mean just thinking the show you worked on, 00:05:04.334 --> 00:05:08.874 those are numbers now that a lot of shows and a lot of political shows in particular would kill for. 00:05:09.618 --> 00:05:12.238 Yeah, I know it's just diminished and diminished. I mean, obviously, 00:05:12.338 --> 00:05:16.298 it's the story of, I mean, it's the very thing, isn't it, of kind of appointment 00:05:16.298 --> 00:05:19.958 to view is live physical programs that are about that moment. 00:05:20.178 --> 00:05:23.938 You can't watch them on demand in the same way you don't want to. 00:05:23.938 --> 00:05:28.718 So um you know so yes it's true so yeah but that doesn't mean by the way that 00:05:28.718 --> 00:05:31.878 the the work that was done there that was then you know i hope to carry forward 00:05:31.878 --> 00:05:33.698 in subsequent things i did, 00:05:34.238 --> 00:05:37.158 doesn't remain important and isn't the best way which it is of 00:05:37.158 --> 00:05:40.158 actually doing our politics but i'm afraid we're fighting you know 00:05:40.158 --> 00:05:42.878 not just against kind of you know people not 00:05:42.878 --> 00:05:45.818 being interested in politics but the kind of culture that favors kind 00:05:45.818 --> 00:05:48.918 of superficiality on television even though podcasts like 00:05:48.918 --> 00:05:52.518 your own demonstrate that people like depth and 00:05:52.518 --> 00:05:55.238 they recognize the the value of it yeah didn't i warn you 00:05:55.238 --> 00:05:58.198 this is like joe rogan you're here for four hours yeah i'm 00:05:58.198 --> 00:06:00.938 i'm i'm all the way here i mean if joe rogan i mean joe rogan was 00:06:00.938 --> 00:06:03.618 that's fine if he actually apparently prepared any of 00:06:03.618 --> 00:06:06.878 that stuff would be quite good wouldn't it i saw that one with him and douglas 00:06:06.878 --> 00:06:10.258 murray the other day and it was it was um i haven't sat down to watch yet he's 00:06:10.258 --> 00:06:14.638 got a lot of um pick up that particular conversation yeah it's very interesting 00:06:14.638 --> 00:06:19.958 i feel actually i do it's one on the list uh to sit down and watch but actually 00:06:19.958 --> 00:06:21.818 uh because i have to say I'm not, 00:06:21.898 --> 00:06:24.758 you know, I'm not a regular Joe Rogan listener or viewer, 00:06:24.978 --> 00:06:27.998 but that did two are particularly interesting conversation. 00:06:28.378 --> 00:06:30.738 I want to come back to the conversation you've written about, 00:06:30.878 --> 00:06:33.878 which is between Brian Walden and Margaret Thatcher. 00:06:34.158 --> 00:06:36.698 Now, as I said, this was the opening chapter of your book. 00:06:37.558 --> 00:06:40.878 Almost. It was the second and third chapters, just to be technically correct, 00:06:40.918 --> 00:06:43.338 because you're missing out the one, the one about the good life, 00:06:43.438 --> 00:06:44.118 which is important to me. 00:06:44.178 --> 00:06:47.098 The good life for the listeners who don't know was a very important show. 00:06:47.478 --> 00:06:51.438 It was a comedy. It was a sitcom and it was very political. 00:06:51.518 --> 00:06:57.158 But it didn't it was political with a small p yes yes i remember this chapter 00:06:57.158 --> 00:07:01.498 now i just remember honing in very early on on this particular sequence because 00:07:01.498 --> 00:07:07.578 you yeah out in real wonderful detail why did you get so fascinated by this particular interview. 00:07:08.456 --> 00:07:11.496 Because, well, because I'm watching it as a viewer. 00:07:12.016 --> 00:07:18.396 Right. I was sitting in my student hovel in 1989, at the end of that year. 00:07:18.656 --> 00:07:21.236 And I watched it and I thought, she's bounced. She's been in my life, 00:07:21.336 --> 00:07:24.496 this woman, Margaret Thatcher, every day for the last however long. 00:07:24.656 --> 00:07:26.776 It feels like, you know, literally since I was a small child, 00:07:27.136 --> 00:07:32.056 she never, you know, she's omnipresent and all powerful. And she never, ever stumbles. 00:07:32.656 --> 00:07:35.756 But all the pressure was on her. And I thought, you know, let's just see what happens. 00:07:35.756 --> 00:07:41.976 And for the first time there was a chink in the armor uh and it really was a 00:07:41.976 --> 00:07:46.156 dramatic moment because walden well as i know as the book lays out i didn't 00:07:46.156 --> 00:07:49.536 know this at the time and neither did anyone really who was watching but the 00:07:49.536 --> 00:07:50.996 relationship between the two of them, 00:07:51.476 --> 00:07:56.696 was really quite intimate and and and deep and friendly and ideological as well 00:07:56.696 --> 00:08:02.316 and so this was a real um dramatic moment for more than the obvious reason of 00:08:02.316 --> 00:08:06.376 kind of here she is in trouble is because he was making his choice then about 00:08:06.376 --> 00:08:08.536 which side of the line he was as a journalist, 00:08:08.536 --> 00:08:13.736 which was important because on a previous occasion at least once, 00:08:13.756 --> 00:08:17.556 he'd actually perhaps gone the wrong side of that line, which I also outlined in the story. 00:08:17.556 --> 00:08:20.556 Yes, he did, because at some points he was a bit funny and this was sort of 00:08:20.556 --> 00:08:23.656 pushing back. So this is a chapter in your book. 00:08:24.196 --> 00:08:29.936 Talk to me about the process of turning a book into a TV show. Yes. 00:08:30.638 --> 00:08:33.978 Okay so um when i wrote these chapters there's two chapters about about this 00:08:33.978 --> 00:08:39.618 about the about the warden thatcher yes um they um and i as i wrote them i was 00:08:39.618 --> 00:08:40.898 writing the first one i thought. 00:08:41.418 --> 00:08:44.598 This has just got drama written all over it it feels 00:08:44.598 --> 00:08:47.818 like a story arc it's just sort of perfect in 00:08:47.818 --> 00:08:50.518 its own kind of internal sort of you know 00:08:50.518 --> 00:08:53.418 logic and an emotional power potentially and 00:08:53.418 --> 00:08:56.598 as i wrote it i thought you know i i 00:08:56.598 --> 00:08:59.418 thought about that so i laid it out in a way that was going 00:08:59.418 --> 00:09:02.398 to make it obvious to anyone reading it that this could potentially be 00:09:02.398 --> 00:09:05.438 a drama and then before i finished i actually i went 00:09:05.438 --> 00:09:08.378 to steve coogan with the idea as one does 00:09:08.378 --> 00:09:11.198 yes i mean obviously that's just i'm always bringing 00:09:11.198 --> 00:09:14.058 steve anyway uh but um no actually uh 00:09:14.058 --> 00:09:17.478 you know what the thing is right if people say it's who you know it's not 00:09:17.478 --> 00:09:20.398 quite that it's not who you know it's do you know someone who's 00:09:20.398 --> 00:09:23.338 got the email address of the person you want to know that's all it's that's 00:09:23.338 --> 00:09:26.118 amazing you know the actual email address that might actually get 00:09:26.118 --> 00:09:29.058 through to them i got lucky i don't know steve coogan or didn't 00:09:29.058 --> 00:09:31.818 then and um but i knew he'd like it i 00:09:31.818 --> 00:09:34.718 thought steve coogan plays brian walden in 00:09:34.718 --> 00:09:37.638 the final version he does he 00:09:37.638 --> 00:09:40.998 is brian walden very much so and he he he embodies 00:09:40.998 --> 00:09:43.878 that that person brilliantly and um and 00:09:43.878 --> 00:09:47.198 i knew he'd like that i knew he'd like the questions that were thrown up about 00:09:47.198 --> 00:09:51.758 about meritocracy and uh and thatcherism and you know all these things so there's 00:09:51.758 --> 00:09:55.938 lots of ideas and of course he's had a lot to do with sort of the media and 00:09:55.938 --> 00:10:01.458 press freedom and press overbearance and all sorts. He's very involved in the phone hack year. 00:10:01.558 --> 00:10:04.798 So he's always had an interest in the media landscape as well. 00:10:05.218 --> 00:10:09.598 Completely. And also, you know, a sort of ambivalence about Mrs Thatcher. 00:10:09.698 --> 00:10:13.698 So, you know, he's taking part and embraced this idea of the show, 00:10:13.738 --> 00:10:16.638 which is actually quite generous about Mrs Thatcher in many ways, 00:10:17.098 --> 00:10:23.658 you know, because she gets the credit for being brave enough to actually come on and argue her case. 00:10:23.658 --> 00:10:28.358 And it's a point you make quite a few times in the book about Thatcher and a 00:10:28.358 --> 00:10:29.478 number of other politicians saying, 00:10:30.575 --> 00:10:35.195 I want to discuss that a bit with you later, but carry on about the process of turning book to TV. 00:10:35.875 --> 00:10:41.715 Yeah. So once you have that idea, if you can get the hold of the email, 00:10:41.835 --> 00:10:46.215 which is, and I don't, by the way, I don't, I don't, I'm joking on that in a way, but it's true. 00:10:46.835 --> 00:10:49.135 It's terrible. It's awful. It's really hard for people who might have great 00:10:49.135 --> 00:10:52.155 ideas. How do they ever get them in front of people? It's really hard. 00:10:52.275 --> 00:10:54.555 I mean, people, it's almost like an assumption. They must be rubbish. 00:10:55.015 --> 00:10:58.335 People have you know because you're you know you want to try and get it to someone famous but. 00:10:59.495 --> 00:11:02.295 It's a shame because there must be loads of things that never be made but anyway i managed to 00:11:02.295 --> 00:11:05.755 get that to him once that happened then it sort of took a bit of momentum of 00:11:05.755 --> 00:11:12.055 its own um largely because um he mentioned it to an old colleague of mine at 00:11:12.055 --> 00:11:17.355 news night ian cats who's now the the the big man at channel four in terms of 00:11:17.355 --> 00:11:21.435 the editorial content and um he loved the idea so So early on, 00:11:21.555 --> 00:11:26.035 we've got Steve and Ian Katz with the channel keen on the idea. 00:11:26.935 --> 00:11:31.315 And so at that point, you're sort of in a zone where it's very doable. 00:11:31.475 --> 00:11:36.015 And the next most important thing after that is who's going to write the script? 00:11:37.615 --> 00:11:40.375 So it has to be someone who is interested in that territory, 00:11:40.535 --> 00:11:42.335 who's got passion for it. 00:11:42.975 --> 00:11:46.315 I mean, who could be better for that than James Graham? 00:11:46.475 --> 00:11:49.375 So James Graham came on board. there are not many 00:11:49.375 --> 00:11:52.295 people who are better for lots of these kind of things than james 00:11:52.295 --> 00:11:56.255 graham have you seen his um dear england 00:11:56.255 --> 00:11:58.935 the football play he did i i loved it yeah 00:11:58.935 --> 00:12:01.855 i saw it i loved it as well not to 00:12:01.855 --> 00:12:05.615 get to derail us too much i found the opening sequence of gareth bell sorry 00:12:05.615 --> 00:12:12.095 gareth southgate missing his euro 1996 penalty deeply deeply triggering um yeah 00:12:12.095 --> 00:12:16.375 it's one of my first true trauma moments as a yeah as a football fan age nine 00:12:16.375 --> 00:12:20.955 but have you had any recent have you had any recent trauma moments at all we're moving on Rob um sorry. 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:26.600 Terrible terrible person that you are um but 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.340 anyway james graham is the most wonderful writer of these 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:33.180 kind of things um he's you 00:12:33.180 --> 00:12:35.980 know done brilliant political work as i say the dear england is 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.760 a wonderful piece of work i mean 00:12:38.760 --> 00:12:41.720 you must have been beyond thrilled when you suddenly realized 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.540 he would take it on completely i mean 00:12:44.540 --> 00:12:48.280 yeah because what you need is you don't want someone who's going to write boring stuff 00:12:48.280 --> 00:12:51.120 about politics and it's going to be boring he's going he's committed to 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.580 the issues and the ideas but he always makes it accessible 00:12:54.580 --> 00:12:58.000 and funny and have a true and just a terrific gift for 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.780 sort of creating like scenes that just move the 00:13:00.780 --> 00:13:03.600 thing on and delight you as a viewer so yeah 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.660 um it was it was yeah it was great i think it just kept getting better so then 00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:09.580 we had so that's all that lining up and then it's well who's going to play margaret 00:13:09.580 --> 00:13:12.360 thatcher and it's like that's a big question because it's been done by a number 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:17.000 of famous uh people and they have you know uh sort of made their mark on it 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:21.140 you know meryl streep and Gillian Anderson come to mind and others as well. 00:13:22.040 --> 00:13:26.700 And then the possibility arose that Harriet Walter could do this. 00:13:26.980 --> 00:13:29.380 Yes, she ended up being Margaret Thatcher. 00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:33.120 I mean, Harriet Walter, I mean, that's, you know, I mean, personally, 00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:36.640 I just don't think you'd get anyone better than that. And for me, she was fantastic. 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.300 I don't want to say I could love you, but she was wonderful, 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:40.700 and it was wonderful. Darling. 00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:43.940 Darling, I did. And it was just such a joy. Can you imagine that, 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:47.600 you know, from my background in just factual, 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.600 heavy politics stuff a lot of the time to work with those people was incredible 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:56.240 and then you know the cherry on the top of the cake was that Stephen Frears 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:00.520 directed it so you know you're talking about you know sort of A-list people here. 00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:05.240 Did you have a moment right when you were thinking back I'm writing a book at 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:10.380 the moment finishing up a book and I know that feeling where you're like if 00:14:10.380 --> 00:14:15.420 I look at this page one more time I'm going to scream if I. 00:14:16.811 --> 00:14:20.851 This book is like you sort of get sick of this the truth is by the time you 00:14:20.851 --> 00:14:25.711 finish writing a book you're sick of the book did you did you ever envisage 00:14:25.711 --> 00:14:27.051 as you were pulling the book together. 00:14:27.491 --> 00:14:30.371 Those things were going to come together for this kind 00:14:30.371 --> 00:14:33.031 of show no i mean and the thing about it is 00:14:33.031 --> 00:14:35.991 that you know even though i always thought it had dramatic potential it 00:14:35.991 --> 00:14:38.651 was you know it was still unpromising as a sort of 00:14:38.651 --> 00:14:41.731 as a project you'd think because it was quite obscure or 00:14:41.731 --> 00:14:45.011 quite you know heavy or whatever but you know clearly thatcher's a thatcher 00:14:45.011 --> 00:14:47.991 helps you because thatcher's always a compelling character but i didn't imagine 00:14:47.991 --> 00:14:50.771 it would happen and it's like and the thing about now is like it's classic sort of 00:14:50.771 --> 00:14:53.891 like half half um empty kind of vibe but it's like now 00:14:53.891 --> 00:14:57.851 it's happened the first time it's never gonna happen again i'll stop it but 00:14:57.851 --> 00:15:00.451 yeah it was it wasn't it was amazing for it to 00:15:00.451 --> 00:15:03.431 happen and i mean i said before 00:15:03.431 --> 00:15:06.771 that i genuinely when i was a kid i used to watch um tv 00:15:06.771 --> 00:15:09.731 as you know at the top at the beginning of those programs and films 00:15:09.731 --> 00:15:12.471 dramas there'd be that thing that said based on 00:15:12.471 --> 00:15:15.411 a book by x yes and genuinely 00:15:15.411 --> 00:15:18.171 i always you know dreamed that that would be my name one 00:15:18.171 --> 00:15:21.091 day and it happened and you know that's pretty 00:15:21.091 --> 00:15:24.491 good that's pretty good it's an amazing thing because we are talking about 00:15:24.491 --> 00:15:27.351 dame harry at walton of the 00:15:27.351 --> 00:15:31.151 royal shapes but company olivia award-winning tony emmy's 00:15:31.151 --> 00:15:34.131 nominated like between her 00:15:34.131 --> 00:15:37.491 and steve coogan that's a pretty powerhouse central couple well 00:15:37.491 --> 00:15:41.331 people might remember her as the mother in succession i mean 00:15:41.331 --> 00:15:44.571 you know that that performance i 00:15:44.571 --> 00:15:47.491 mean you just realized that 00:15:47.491 --> 00:15:54.151 now yes it's her yeah absolutely she's the mother of the first three roy of. 00:15:54.151 --> 00:15:59.111 The younger three roy children yeah yeah she's she is but oh my god she's not 00:15:59.111 --> 00:16:03.631 connor's mother but she's ever amazing amazing I've forgotten that. 00:16:03.691 --> 00:16:05.291 Yeah, that makes sense. Who's Connor's mother then? 00:16:07.411 --> 00:16:12.831 I can't remember. He's just the idiot kid of the first marriage. 00:16:15.111 --> 00:16:21.631 Something like that. Anyway, so I want just because I think this has been interesting 00:16:21.631 --> 00:16:25.631 in the sort of practicalities of this. What kind of timeline are we talking here? 00:16:25.771 --> 00:16:28.951 Because the book came out, what, a couple of years ago, a year ago? 00:16:29.551 --> 00:16:32.131 Not quite two years. It came out in May of 2023. 00:16:33.111 --> 00:16:35.411 It moved really, really fast. Actually, Steve Coogan said to me, 00:16:35.451 --> 00:16:38.351 it's the fastest that he's ever experienced a show moving. 00:16:39.691 --> 00:16:42.651 And also, of course, it landed in a very, very unpromising environment, 00:16:43.211 --> 00:16:47.431 which we're still in, really, which is, you know, can we really afford to make 00:16:47.431 --> 00:16:49.371 expensive drama programs? 00:16:49.971 --> 00:16:56.911 So I think there's a lot of, there's a combination of sort of a willingness by people to, you know. 00:16:58.789 --> 00:17:01.689 Get paid a little less you know compromise a bit more just that 00:17:01.689 --> 00:17:04.689 the other just to make it happen and once that once it had 00:17:04.689 --> 00:17:07.309 that momentum then it was just able to get over the line i mean it's a 00:17:07.309 --> 00:17:10.849 bit of a miracle i mean it's all those things came together uh 00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:15.329 so the overall time on it i mean seeing the book come out in 23 i 00:17:15.329 --> 00:17:18.189 must have asked steve about in 22 so it's take it took about two years 00:17:18.189 --> 00:17:20.889 two and a half years amazing it's a 00:17:20.889 --> 00:17:24.629 fascinating thing because we sort of have this 00:17:24.629 --> 00:17:27.409 vision of like oh these things 00:17:27.409 --> 00:17:30.029 don't happen all right you write you or that it 00:17:30.029 --> 00:17:32.829 happens really easily right and that like you're a 00:17:32.829 --> 00:17:35.909 big high-powered agent gets you the massive tv 00:17:35.909 --> 00:17:42.009 draw you know and actually the what you're articulating is that actually it's 00:17:42.009 --> 00:17:46.169 all a bit more i mean as a way lots of things are i don't want to use the word 00:17:46.169 --> 00:17:50.029 shambolic but these kind of things the plates have the sort of tonic plates 00:17:50.029 --> 00:17:52.929 all have to move in the right way for these things to come together. 00:17:53.569 --> 00:17:56.509 Completely true yeah i mean obviously i've not seen them not work 00:17:56.509 --> 00:17:59.469 in the right way everything just behaved logically in this situation it 00:17:59.469 --> 00:18:02.409 just followed one thing followed the other um i 00:18:02.409 --> 00:18:05.649 don't know maybe it's because it was um just for 00:18:05.649 --> 00:18:09.809 those people anyway just so excited to think about a big a big drama about thatcher 00:18:09.809 --> 00:18:13.949 and with the two actors and it just it just yeah once you were into it you want 00:18:13.949 --> 00:18:17.649 it to happen so yeah i i don't know i would i do not know how to replicate this 00:18:17.649 --> 00:18:22.789 right well i i I know you're settling away at other books. 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:26.789 I'm looking forward to the six-part short drama series based on the next one. 00:18:29.209 --> 00:18:36.409 But I love the book, as I said, and it brought up a couple of key issues about 00:18:36.409 --> 00:18:37.889 the modern media environment. 00:18:38.849 --> 00:18:43.869 Just before that, in terms of our very streaming-centric environment now, 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:49.289 was that taken into consideration when you were putting the show together in 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:52.809 the sense of, yes, it went out on Channel 4, but actually... 00:18:54.099 --> 00:18:57.459 People are really predominantly going to take this in on the channel for streaming 00:18:57.459 --> 00:19:00.519 service, how that plays out. 00:19:00.679 --> 00:19:04.339 What was the, you know, I'm interested in the conversations around that and 00:19:04.339 --> 00:19:05.939 the presentation of that as well. 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:12.279 I think the key thing was there's the, the, the, the channel for streaming service 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:16.059 made the, made the, made the film available, two episodes available. 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:20.599 I think about a week before it was TX on, you know, on television, on regular television. 00:19:20.979 --> 00:19:24.759 They both came out on 15th of Jan of this year. Yeah. And it was, 00:19:24.819 --> 00:19:28.499 I think it was a 29th or something. I can't remember the actual day of the actual TV transmission. 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.219 So that sends a quite strong signal. If you, you know, it's what's the strong, 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:33.279 what's the most important thing? 00:19:33.719 --> 00:19:37.359 Where are you going to get the exclusive content first? So that was pretty good. 00:19:38.059 --> 00:19:40.499 The other thing it does, to be honest, it just throws up all this, 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.939 you know, this whole thing about ratings. I mean, I just don't know really. 00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:48.819 I knew that the ratings were fine and good, but they were sort of, they weren't yet. 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:52.399 When I saw them, overnights weren't sort of consolidated and they didn't take 00:19:52.399 --> 00:19:55.319 into account all the streaming, which I think anecdotally, anyway, 00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:59.299 from people I knew, they waited until the weekend, following weekend, 00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:01.179 to watch it. So I don't know. 00:20:01.919 --> 00:20:04.199 I haven't actually checked in my channel before about the numbers, 00:20:04.299 --> 00:20:08.479 but it's – obviously, as long as everyone – people need to recognise those are 00:20:08.479 --> 00:20:10.179 just as good numbers as the ones on the night. 00:20:10.699 --> 00:20:13.519 Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the nice thing they've actually 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.219 done in terms of presenting it for streaming, 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.719 which is a thing you can only do in the kind of streaming environment, 00:20:19.779 --> 00:20:23.219 is if you look up and get the show up now on channel four 00:20:23.219 --> 00:20:26.359 on the streaming service they've actually put 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.319 the original interview there to watch underneath which 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.819 i think is really nice that was clever move yeah that was i remember 00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:36.599 saying that to me i think it's really good and actually although it sort of 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:39.299 makes you worry oh god will they watch the interview and it's in a way it's 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:43.179 obviously going to be more prosaic or feel more sort of normal than uh than 00:20:43.179 --> 00:20:47.199 the high drama that we that we produced of course i think it goes pretty well 00:20:47.199 --> 00:20:50.559 it's pretty a pretty good compliment it's an amazing interview actually It just really is. 00:20:52.101 --> 00:20:56.961 Did you feel a sense of that, you know, needing to balance the drama that we 00:20:56.961 --> 00:21:00.481 all have to have for TV because we all can't stop swiping and, 00:21:00.701 --> 00:21:03.621 you know, we have to be gripped all the time, otherwise we can't watch a show 00:21:03.621 --> 00:21:05.961 for the 47 minutes each episode is? 00:21:07.561 --> 00:21:14.101 Or did you feel the sense of history as well, like, you know, 00:21:14.201 --> 00:21:17.401 the desire for accuracy, you know, all that kind of thing? 00:21:18.061 --> 00:21:21.061 Yeah, I mean, it's always a tension there when it comes to, you know, 00:21:22.561 --> 00:21:26.441 films and drama based upon real events because you 00:21:26.441 --> 00:21:29.281 know yeah there's like for example there's a there 00:21:29.281 --> 00:21:32.301 is i think people saw it was a clanger but was it a clanger not really 00:21:32.301 --> 00:21:35.541 which is that bernard ingham is introduced into the 00:21:35.541 --> 00:21:38.721 film early at a time when he wasn't working for bernard ingham 00:21:38.721 --> 00:21:41.981 who was a very big it was margaret thatcher's press 00:21:41.981 --> 00:21:44.681 secretary yeah actually he was a press secretary who came with the 00:21:44.681 --> 00:21:47.461 civil service when she took office so she wouldn't he wouldn't 00:21:47.461 --> 00:21:51.561 have been there working for as he is in the film in 1977 now sometimes 00:21:51.561 --> 00:21:54.241 you know i think 78 in the film and he didn't start 00:21:54.241 --> 00:21:59.261 until 79 well that's 77 the first episode he didn't start so he can't have done 00:21:59.261 --> 00:22:02.521 because he just by definition he's a civil servant he was on so i mean the point 00:22:02.521 --> 00:22:06.061 about that is yes you could delay that and make it accurate but there's a certain 00:22:06.061 --> 00:22:10.341 extent to which the two of them are talking about the nature of media and the 00:22:10.341 --> 00:22:13.161 value of these things and and and And, you know, 00:22:13.321 --> 00:22:18.981 it enhances the content to not be too much of a stickler about what's a fairly, 00:22:18.981 --> 00:22:21.461 you know, technical sort of point, really. 00:22:21.841 --> 00:22:26.421 So, yes, you do have to be aware. But I think you have to be aware you distort, 00:22:26.721 --> 00:22:28.581 but, you know, you've got to 00:22:28.581 --> 00:22:31.681 serve the audience in terms of making them engaged. It's obviously true. 00:22:33.043 --> 00:22:39.043 Yeah, it's very interesting. And how you have to balance that stuff. 00:22:39.143 --> 00:22:45.383 And also you with your journalism background must have felt being deeply sensitive to that in a way. 00:22:45.563 --> 00:22:50.763 Maybe other writers of these things wouldn't be because they lead more to the drama side. 00:22:51.803 --> 00:22:54.543 Yeah i don't know because i've been through this thing of um so i mean it says it 00:22:54.543 --> 00:22:57.183 says all the way by the way a practical thing how it works which i 00:22:57.183 --> 00:22:59.783 didn't know either which is you know i've written the book it's all good it's all gonna go 00:22:59.783 --> 00:23:03.323 ahead i then spend time with james you know james sits down and talks to me 00:23:03.323 --> 00:23:07.983 and so um and and and um dallas scudamore the one of one of the execs as well 00:23:07.983 --> 00:23:12.643 she was there too we we just talk about the content and he asked questions and 00:23:12.643 --> 00:23:16.463 he tried he's interested in certain things but i mean i put that those chapters 00:23:16.463 --> 00:23:18.143 together with a view to doing this 00:23:18.523 --> 00:23:22.983 so i sort of you know i don't i wouldn't say i was i wouldn't say i was in terms of that 00:23:23.303 --> 00:23:26.523 the amount of being wedded to sort of 00:23:26.523 --> 00:23:29.243 heavy truth i was kind of a 00:23:29.243 --> 00:23:32.523 bit more flexible to that anyway because of what i'd done in the book which is and 00:23:32.523 --> 00:23:35.063 actually by the way i've tried i don't know you do but i try and do this in 00:23:35.063 --> 00:23:38.083 books when you talk about the thing you're saying about um about keeping people 00:23:38.083 --> 00:23:41.503 gripped it sort of feels like almost in a book like every paragraph you need 00:23:41.503 --> 00:23:44.783 to keep them gripped you know what i mean it feels like that's the way we live 00:23:44.783 --> 00:23:50.023 now yes it is And that's actually a nice thing to lead on to what I wanted to 00:23:50.023 --> 00:23:51.243 talk about a bit more with you. 00:23:51.403 --> 00:23:54.963 But we'll chat about that on the next episode of the edition podcast. 00:23:55.120 --> 00:24:04.700 Music.