WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.200 Music. 00:00:09.041 --> 00:00:13.241 Hello and welcome to The Edition podcast. I'm Charlotte Henry. 00:00:13.821 --> 00:00:16.921 Joining me today is someone who officially counts as a friend of the show. 00:00:18.281 --> 00:00:21.541 It's Chris Sutcliffe from Media Voices. Hello. Thank you very much for having 00:00:21.541 --> 00:00:23.961 me on again. You are, of course, a friend of Media Voices as well. 00:00:24.161 --> 00:00:26.101 Well, yeah, we like to hang out together. 00:00:26.501 --> 00:00:30.261 Now, tell me the changes you've done in Media Voices recently, 00:00:30.361 --> 00:00:33.061 because there's a bit of a new dynamic going on and it's great. 00:00:33.761 --> 00:00:36.721 Well we've this is basically our year of 00:00:36.721 --> 00:00:39.501 experimentation and it's it's sort of a make or break year for 00:00:39.501 --> 00:00:42.481 us um so we're carrying on all the 00:00:42.481 --> 00:00:45.441 old favorites so we're doing you know the weekly podcast in 00:00:45.441 --> 00:00:48.161 seasons we're doing our daily news well daily we're doing 00:00:48.161 --> 00:00:51.921 our weekly newsletter we stopped doing the daily because it was killing us and there's 00:00:51.921 --> 00:00:54.541 uh we've also really sort of concentrated now on a much more of 00:00:54.541 --> 00:00:57.701 a coherent content marketing strategy for our events the 00:00:57.701 --> 00:01:00.401 publisher podcast awards and the publisher newsletter awards so everything has 00:01:00.401 --> 00:01:03.821 really been geared around that i won an award at your publisher newsletter i 00:01:03.821 --> 00:01:07.801 don't know if i've ever mentioned i don't know you know um but yeah 00:01:07.801 --> 00:01:11.101 so it's all been changed we've all sort of like up ended our 00:01:11.101 --> 00:01:13.981 working practices making sure that we are aligned around the events 00:01:13.981 --> 00:01:17.281 primarily so we changed from media voices to basically 00:01:17.281 --> 00:01:20.301 their publisher portfolio of which media voices is the kind of 00:01:20.301 --> 00:01:23.581 the operating company and within that we've changed the name of media voices 00:01:23.581 --> 00:01:27.001 podcast to the publisher podcast it's now the publisher newsletter all this 00:01:27.001 --> 00:01:30.841 kind of stuff and we're doing the most ambitious slate of events we've ever 00:01:30.841 --> 00:01:34.581 done yeah you've got some great stuff coming up we certainly do so in addition 00:01:34.581 --> 00:01:38.761 to our standard two streams of newsletters and podcasts for the publisher podcast 00:01:38.761 --> 00:01:42.801 newsletter summit we also have print and app streams now which is. 00:01:43.641 --> 00:01:48.281 Absolutely killing my colleague Esther putting that all together but you know 00:01:48.281 --> 00:01:51.581 we have help with Joe and and Peter's obviously doing anything I'm pitching 00:01:51.581 --> 00:01:54.921 him when I can so it's ambitious but it's it's make or break and we want to 00:01:54.921 --> 00:01:58.081 we want to make it we definitely want you to make it um, 00:01:58.821 --> 00:02:04.041 esther is wonderful the joe is wonderful you two lads will decide um well you 00:02:04.041 --> 00:02:07.781 had a piece around what only the other week to talk about was it sort of passion 00:02:07.781 --> 00:02:13.681 or profit yes absolutely which is a it's a fascinating topic because i but we've 00:02:13.681 --> 00:02:17.281 got a really interesting topic with you as well because. 00:02:18.141 --> 00:02:20.901 You obviously want to talk about video games and you obviously want to talk 00:02:20.901 --> 00:02:24.781 about piracy Any excuse to talk about games and piracy, yeah. 00:02:24.941 --> 00:02:29.721 Yeah, yeah. But this is an issue that has actually been sort of bothering me 00:02:29.721 --> 00:02:34.021 as I write my book, actually, Streaming Wars coming out in October, people. 00:02:34.741 --> 00:02:39.481 It's been because we live in this world where we think we have everything, 00:02:40.661 --> 00:02:45.501 and we sort of do and sort of don't, and we're asked to pay a lot in a lot of 00:02:45.501 --> 00:02:47.121 different places for it. 00:02:48.075 --> 00:02:52.835 And there's still some stuff you just can't get. And your trade of thought is 00:02:52.835 --> 00:02:57.395 that it's kind of leading people to find this, to quote the streets, 00:02:57.615 --> 00:02:58.835 original pirate material. 00:03:00.655 --> 00:03:05.115 Well, yeah, it's almost, like you said, a lot of the streaming services that 00:03:05.115 --> 00:03:07.575 are out there were sold on you have access to our entire back catalogue. 00:03:07.815 --> 00:03:10.975 Obviously, sometimes there are licensing reasons why that can't be the case. 00:03:11.195 --> 00:03:15.475 In some cases, it's because either the creator or the company has said, 00:03:15.575 --> 00:03:17.955 actually, we don't want this to be part and parcel of our catalogue anymore. 00:03:18.075 --> 00:03:22.295 Whether that's you know disney's song of the south you know because it's the 00:03:22.295 --> 00:03:26.655 second most racist movie after johnny depp's lone ranger all this kind of stuff 00:03:26.655 --> 00:03:29.295 where it's been pulled but then chris not me. 00:03:30.335 --> 00:03:33.235 Um but there's also this idea where things are 00:03:33.235 --> 00:03:36.375 just being taken away or 00:03:36.375 --> 00:03:39.135 left to kind of rot in media terms and 00:03:39.135 --> 00:03:41.835 they are not being included in the catalogs and it's at 00:03:41.835 --> 00:03:44.895 that point looking at the state of media preservation that 00:03:44.895 --> 00:03:48.515 you kind of have to go well is this the place where piracy becomes 00:03:48.515 --> 00:03:51.955 a sort of moral um imperative because we're 00:03:51.955 --> 00:03:55.075 losing vast swathes of our kind of our cultural history this way and 00:03:55.075 --> 00:03:58.075 there are caveats obviously which we can get into but yeah that was kind of the central 00:03:58.075 --> 00:04:00.995 point and it was all brought to a head when last week hbo 00:04:00.995 --> 00:04:03.855 max removed effectively 40 years worth of content 00:04:03.855 --> 00:04:06.615 from looney tunes which it's a cartoon but it's 00:04:06.615 --> 00:04:10.215 part of people's cultural heritage yeah and 00:04:10.215 --> 00:04:13.695 this is all in lots of ways it's cost-cutting 00:04:13.695 --> 00:04:16.415 it's not because as you say song of 00:04:16.415 --> 00:04:23.335 the south you know it is there it is racist there's issues with it that people 00:04:23.335 --> 00:04:31.515 you know we don't need in today whereas looney tunes okay i'm sure we could 00:04:31.515 --> 00:04:34.495 find some problematic stuff oh my god absolutely but it's almost it's almost 00:04:34.495 --> 00:04:35.495 not about that you You know, 00:04:35.595 --> 00:04:38.675 it's like I would be happy for Song of the South or Birth of a Nation or whatever 00:04:38.675 --> 00:04:42.995 to be on streaming platforms just with that kind of a caveat or trusting audiences 00:04:42.995 --> 00:04:44.095 to know, you know, what things were different in the past. 00:04:44.095 --> 00:04:47.695 Well, that's actually a very good point because actually if we disappear this 00:04:47.695 --> 00:04:51.695 stuff, you sort of can't challenge the wrongness of it either. 00:04:52.015 --> 00:04:53.115 Well, that's exactly it. 00:04:53.595 --> 00:04:56.775 And that's part of my point. It's not even necessarily that it's the wrongness of it. 00:04:56.835 --> 00:05:01.375 It's its place in history and how everything has kind of evolved from the next thing. 00:05:01.375 --> 00:05:05.375 And you know quite apart from the consumer problems of well i signed up to this 00:05:05.375 --> 00:05:08.775 on the basis that you know i was being sold access to an entire back catalog 00:05:08.775 --> 00:05:12.215 of whatever it it's sort of. 00:05:13.415 --> 00:05:16.195 I don't know it feels like it's leaving rungs in this 00:05:16.195 --> 00:05:21.155 ladder of cultural understanding and it's been exacerbated exacerbated it's 00:05:21.155 --> 00:05:26.315 been exacerbated by um things like kind of link rot online as well where the 00:05:26.315 --> 00:05:28.815 ephemeracy of digital content has just kind of brought this more to the fore 00:05:28.815 --> 00:05:32.815 there are places where this kind of stuff could live online but doesn't anymore 00:05:32.815 --> 00:05:35.135 everything's going away yeah yeah exactly. 00:05:36.624 --> 00:05:40.964 And I think it is really interesting how the streamers have approached this 00:05:40.964 --> 00:05:44.184 and not really been able to fix it or chosen not to fix it. 00:05:44.684 --> 00:05:52.264 So 40 years of Looney Tunes. Now, these are iconic classic news, you know, cartoons. 00:05:52.484 --> 00:05:55.564 You don't have to watch them. You don't have to like them. You can explain to 00:05:55.564 --> 00:05:56.724 your kids what's wrong about them. 00:05:57.044 --> 00:06:01.964 But that's a lot of heritage that's evaporated. 00:06:02.164 --> 00:06:05.204 And we should question why that is. and if 00:06:05.204 --> 00:06:08.044 it's in the name of costs that's kind 00:06:08.044 --> 00:06:11.324 of worrying because that was not the name of the game in streaming and 00:06:11.324 --> 00:06:14.444 i think you're right that it does lead people to 00:06:14.444 --> 00:06:17.464 piracy because i'm sure if i started digging 00:06:17.464 --> 00:06:20.924 around on youtube and other websites i would 00:06:20.924 --> 00:06:24.324 find the classic uni looney tunes catalogues but 00:06:24.324 --> 00:06:27.224 hbo max doesn't want to you know to give 00:06:27.224 --> 00:06:29.984 people access to that and take their money which is kind 00:06:29.984 --> 00:06:33.124 of a seemingly bizarre approach 00:06:33.124 --> 00:06:35.864 well i think a caveat that we that we should probably make clear is 00:06:35.864 --> 00:06:38.904 i'm not advocating i don't think you're advocating either for piracy when 00:06:38.904 --> 00:06:42.804 there is an alternative when you can pay to access this kind of stuff you know 00:06:42.804 --> 00:06:45.944 provide that it's within copyright provide that it's not kind of lapsed into 00:06:45.944 --> 00:06:50.744 public domain absolutely pay for that kind of stuff because it feeds the creation 00:06:50.744 --> 00:06:56.284 of you know new content as well it's when you just I just genuinely cannot access it at all, 00:06:56.444 --> 00:07:02.444 where I feel like there is this almost responsibility on places like Internet Archives do it. 00:07:02.584 --> 00:07:05.764 Places like the American Genre Film Association, they do it. 00:07:06.284 --> 00:07:09.624 Commercial enterprises like Vinegar Syndrome. Yeah, you mentioned that to me, yeah. 00:07:10.184 --> 00:07:13.464 They sort of take ownership of these lapsed properties and they put them out 00:07:13.464 --> 00:07:18.984 in, you know, with the context, and they put them out in as professional packages as they possibly can. 00:07:19.304 --> 00:07:21.664 And they do make a profit from it, at least Vinegar Syndrome does, 00:07:21.744 --> 00:07:22.684 Internet Archive not so much. 00:07:23.895 --> 00:07:27.035 If we don't have people doing this and we don't have individuals doing it, 00:07:27.195 --> 00:07:30.295 we lose access to so much stuff. 00:07:30.535 --> 00:07:32.975 So I feel like there's a lot we're talking about here. But what we're absolutely 00:07:32.975 --> 00:07:38.015 not advocating for, for the purposes of not being sued, is people going out 00:07:38.015 --> 00:07:41.735 there and pirating things that are readily available. Just you have to pay for them. 00:07:42.055 --> 00:07:47.435 Yeah. And I'm not even sure I'm advocating, quote unquote, for piracy in any context. 00:07:47.595 --> 00:07:52.655 But the problem is that is inevitably what happens because of human nature. 00:07:53.255 --> 00:07:56.015 Whether it's right wrong or you're indifferent to it that's 00:07:56.015 --> 00:07:59.015 not really the point for us to debate we're not having a philosophical 00:07:59.015 --> 00:08:01.815 debate we're having a practical one because that's what's happened 00:08:01.815 --> 00:08:04.615 and that leads me to my favorite bugbear of all 00:08:04.615 --> 00:08:07.595 times which is the saturday 3 p.m 00:08:07.595 --> 00:08:10.375 football blackout in the uk you mentioned this this 00:08:10.375 --> 00:08:13.095 as when i pitched this topic and i was like oh god yeah there 00:08:13.095 --> 00:08:15.815 is there is some overlap there there is a sort of uh corollary to 00:08:15.815 --> 00:08:18.655 this so just for people who don't know particularly listeners in 00:08:18.655 --> 00:08:21.475 the us and elsewhere between i believe 00:08:21.475 --> 00:08:24.935 the time frame is 2 45 p.m and 5 00:08:24.935 --> 00:08:28.195 15 p.m on a Saturday afternoon it is 00:08:28.195 --> 00:08:31.075 illegal to show any kind of football 00:08:31.075 --> 00:08:34.375 in the UK you just cannot do it men's 00:08:34.375 --> 00:08:37.595 women's Premier League lower league whatever you are 00:08:37.595 --> 00:08:42.195 not allowed to show football in the UK and the 00:08:42.195 --> 00:08:45.075 only time there was an exemption to this was of course during Covid where every 00:08:45.075 --> 00:08:48.035 game was televised because people couldn't go to it but that's it 00:08:48.035 --> 00:08:51.175 you're not allowed they I always mentioned this example from 00:08:51.175 --> 00:08:54.135 years ago where Sky Sports was 00:08:54.135 --> 00:08:57.915 showing the Classico Real Madrid versus Barcelona and 00:08:57.915 --> 00:09:03.995 but it started at 5 p.m it started at 6 p.m I guess Spanish time 5 p.m UK time 00:09:03.995 --> 00:09:08.595 and we had this farcical situation where in the studio background you could 00:09:08.595 --> 00:09:12.995 see they had the game on but they were not allowed to cut to the game until 00:09:12.995 --> 00:09:15.955 15 minutes into it because it was against the law. 00:09:16.315 --> 00:09:21.335 At 15 minute and one second, they could cut to the game as a normal broadcast. 00:09:21.535 --> 00:09:23.395 But until then, it was not allowed. 00:09:24.415 --> 00:09:26.635 And all that happens... 00:09:27.055 --> 00:09:30.755 Is people head off to find 00:09:30.755 --> 00:09:33.515 alternative streams let's not pretend that in. 00:09:33.515 --> 00:09:37.075 2025 people are not watching the three o'clock kickoffs oh 00:09:37.075 --> 00:09:39.835 god no i've i know the number of people i've spoken to who 00:09:39.835 --> 00:09:42.735 go who call it you know i've got the dodgy box or whatever and they 00:09:42.735 --> 00:09:45.655 will watch it on that kind of stuff but it's a but you're 00:09:45.655 --> 00:09:49.095 encouraging that kind of behavior what's the initial impetus 00:09:49.095 --> 00:09:52.015 for that because it's a it's an old old like the 00:09:52.015 --> 00:09:54.955 initial impetus is basically to get people going to games 00:09:54.955 --> 00:09:58.035 right right right i think particularly at down the 00:09:58.035 --> 00:10:00.775 football pyramid but in general to have people going 00:10:00.775 --> 00:10:03.695 to the games and did i see did i see prince no 00:10:03.695 --> 00:10:06.575 less than prince william himself advocating to 00:10:06.575 --> 00:10:09.335 get rid of the to get rid of it oh i know he was talking 00:10:09.335 --> 00:10:12.955 about his love for aston villa but that's i didn't see uh him 00:10:12.955 --> 00:10:15.975 saying that although he is president of the fa still 00:10:15.975 --> 00:10:20.075 so that's quite an interesting intervention if he did say that but the 00:10:20.075 --> 00:10:23.295 media companies i i guess in 00:10:23.295 --> 00:10:26.515 some ways like it because it makes the rights they have 00:10:26.515 --> 00:10:29.255 more valuable i guess particularly the 00:10:29.255 --> 00:10:31.995 fa and the premier league like it because 00:10:31.995 --> 00:10:35.095 they can sell limited rights for more but you 00:10:35.095 --> 00:10:38.535 know in the united states in uh that 00:10:38.535 --> 00:10:41.595 all their sports have different streaming platforms where 00:10:41.595 --> 00:10:45.675 you can buy the season pass there are some geolocation issues but you can basically 00:10:45.675 --> 00:10:49.595 buy everything and we just haven't done it in the uk and that is an example 00:10:49.595 --> 00:10:54.215 to stay on topic of things that encourage privacy you mentioned the dodgy box 00:10:54.215 --> 00:11:00.335 people digging around on links with all sorts of adverts popping up so i'm told um. 00:11:01.408 --> 00:11:05.328 That you know simply you don't 00:11:05.328 --> 00:11:08.228 want on your computer just to watch this stuff which really 00:11:08.228 --> 00:11:11.068 could be readily available and feeding back into 00:11:11.068 --> 00:11:14.828 football so you're talking about cultural heritage and you're talking about 00:11:14.828 --> 00:11:18.928 current things that are happening and like not rights issues not withstanding 00:11:18.928 --> 00:11:23.808 you know you've brought up the idea that you know this is a fact of human nature 00:11:23.808 --> 00:11:27.888 people will want stuff for free and you know whether it be because you know 00:11:27.888 --> 00:11:29.448 there are these archaic rules. 00:11:30.568 --> 00:11:33.468 Or it be because of a cost-saving measure or whatever 00:11:33.468 --> 00:11:36.168 or just you know the the fact that 00:11:36.168 --> 00:11:38.948 you know people have just pulled stuff because of a kind 00:11:38.948 --> 00:11:41.968 of moral panic or whatever that inevitably 00:11:41.968 --> 00:11:44.708 does lead to this fact that we are not we do not have access to 00:11:44.708 --> 00:11:47.488 all the media that we could do and in a lot of cases that then leads to 00:11:47.488 --> 00:11:50.248 this kind of blind spot not just cultural blind spot in terms of 00:11:50.248 --> 00:11:53.568 heritage but also in terms of you know people understanding 00:11:53.568 --> 00:11:56.488 how we got to where we are now and it's it's really 00:11:56.488 --> 00:11:59.688 really visible obviously you mentioned it there in football it's 00:11:59.688 --> 00:12:03.068 visible in movies and films i've been scouring um 00:12:03.068 --> 00:12:06.728 finniger syndrome i've been all over tv tropes and looking for 00:12:06.728 --> 00:12:10.148 kind of these old movies these old horror movies particularly which aren't available 00:12:10.148 --> 00:12:16.208 anywhere anywhere anymore but the one that really bites is as you mentioned 00:12:16.208 --> 00:12:21.868 the start in games where sit back ladies and gentlemen make yourself a cup of 00:12:21.868 --> 00:12:24.708 tea this is a ted talk delivered by Chris Sutcliffe. 00:12:24.868 --> 00:12:29.508 Kind of, yeah, but it's, I think, a common sentiment online. 00:12:29.508 --> 00:12:34.368 It leads people to piracy because games, obviously, hardware improves and that 00:12:34.368 --> 00:12:38.648 inevitably means that there is work to be done to bring old titles onto new 00:12:38.648 --> 00:12:39.788 platforms so that people can play them. 00:12:40.108 --> 00:12:45.088 But because there are also iterations in terms of consoles and hardware specs. 00:12:46.168 --> 00:12:53.308 Sometimes it just genuinely does mean that some companies choose not to update 00:12:53.308 --> 00:12:56.848 their games to make them readily available on whichever current platform we're on. 00:12:56.988 --> 00:13:03.368 At the same time, they strictly enforce copyright laws and anti-piracy laws 00:13:03.368 --> 00:13:06.508 to protect this IP, which they're not doing anything with. 00:13:06.708 --> 00:13:11.588 And particularly for games, it feels like we are having this huge issue where 00:13:11.588 --> 00:13:17.768 vast swathes of gaming heritage is just being left to rot because these companies 00:13:17.768 --> 00:13:19.748 want to hold on to the IP, totally understandable, 00:13:20.048 --> 00:13:24.348 but they also clamp down on anybody else's ability to play them. 00:13:24.488 --> 00:13:28.928 And we just had in the UK attempts to legislate for game preservation. 00:13:28.928 --> 00:13:30.908 It was called the Stop Killing Games petition. 00:13:31.388 --> 00:13:36.708 UK government, I believe, it was well on its way to being debated and then obviously 00:13:36.708 --> 00:13:39.708 everything got shut down by the most recent election. Not sure if it's been 00:13:39.708 --> 00:13:40.608 pulled up again ever since. 00:13:40.908 --> 00:13:42.888 But it's led to this point now where. 00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:46.949 There is a genuine need for i don't 00:13:46.949 --> 00:13:50.649 know a an internet archives or a well-funded um 00:13:50.649 --> 00:13:54.069 archive system to actually make sure that all this is available as 00:13:54.069 --> 00:13:57.389 we saw with vinegar syndrome good old games places like that do update 00:13:57.389 --> 00:14:00.629 games make them available they've just done a huge release of new titles like 00:14:00.629 --> 00:14:03.569 silent hill 4 um which wouldn't have been available anywhere 00:14:03.569 --> 00:14:06.329 anywhere else but it sort of 00:14:06.329 --> 00:14:09.229 do you see where i'm coming from it's like how do we how 00:14:09.229 --> 00:14:12.409 do we square the circle where we want to give these 00:14:12.409 --> 00:14:15.049 companies the money for their ip they have 00:14:15.049 --> 00:14:17.689 put the work and they deserve that money but they're not doing anything with it 00:14:17.689 --> 00:14:21.149 piracy you don't want to diminish ip no don't 00:14:21.149 --> 00:14:24.469 want to break copyright laws people that 00:14:24.469 --> 00:14:27.469 create ip deserve to be rewarded for that 00:14:27.469 --> 00:14:30.469 but it's also then that it's preservation not piracy 00:14:30.469 --> 00:14:34.069 i think we're asking for and totally the problem 00:14:34.069 --> 00:14:39.009 is particularly with you know movies and films there's not absolutely nothing 00:14:39.009 --> 00:14:45.509 to say that in six months time hbo max won't re um you know re-upload all their 00:14:45.509 --> 00:14:49.229 lunitudes content at which point you know does that preservation imperative 00:14:49.229 --> 00:14:52.169 stand again we've seen so many games being. 00:14:54.270 --> 00:14:58.530 So many aren't at what point who is i suppose the question is who is the arbiter, 00:14:59.170 --> 00:15:03.450 of when we need to step in and do some preservation versus it just being sort of like. 00:15:05.050 --> 00:15:07.730 Cautious piratism erring on the side of caution so they 00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:11.070 don't disappear i am really pleased you brought up video 00:15:11.070 --> 00:15:13.750 games because they're such a huge part of the 00:15:13.750 --> 00:15:16.690 media landscape and not one i talk about enough here 00:15:16.690 --> 00:15:19.610 on the edition but they really are a crucial part 00:15:19.610 --> 00:15:23.610 of the media landscape and it's they 00:15:23.610 --> 00:15:27.530 tell us a lot about the way technology develops they 00:15:27.530 --> 00:15:31.110 tell us a lot about kind of the salient issues 00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:34.410 of the time and and there 00:15:34.410 --> 00:15:37.130 is a legitimate form of media that needs 00:15:37.130 --> 00:15:40.250 to be preserved as movies as tv shows 00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:47.170 as books so on and so forth and what's really interesting is in terms of books 00:15:47.170 --> 00:15:53.710 which obviously i completely adore um and by far too many no not too many i'm 00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:57.930 not going to say too many you can never have too many books i like to have lots of books um, 00:15:58.550 --> 00:16:01.430 there are because of the physical nature of them 00:16:01.430 --> 00:16:05.290 and this library system those can 00:16:05.290 --> 00:16:08.350 often be preserved and in some ways 00:16:08.350 --> 00:16:11.270 movies and movie reels do fall into that 00:16:11.270 --> 00:16:19.750 but not all totally you know somewhere in the hbo lot somewhere in the hbo archives 00:16:19.750 --> 00:16:25.270 all 40 years of looney tunes exists oh god yeah of course it does so some of 00:16:25.270 --> 00:16:29.510 that work is preserved but it's also about making it. 00:16:30.430 --> 00:16:34.990 Accessible for us to you know to have it as part of our cultural conscience 00:16:34.990 --> 00:16:41.190 as well um another issue you've raised that i think is interesting and important 00:16:41.190 --> 00:16:46.410 is physical media because you highlighted with games how the technology changes 00:16:46.410 --> 00:16:50.110 but that's of course is also true in movies you know. 00:16:51.128 --> 00:16:54.348 Okay vinyl records you can still play cds 00:16:54.348 --> 00:16:57.108 you can still play cassettes you can still play if you have 00:16:57.108 --> 00:17:00.288 that but technology things like 00:17:00.288 --> 00:17:03.168 blu-ray just can go well they can go and 00:17:03.168 --> 00:17:05.908 that's you know sony has basically just said we are washing our 00:17:05.908 --> 00:17:09.028 hands of blu-ray you know they're discontinuing production of new models 00:17:09.028 --> 00:17:12.068 they're discontinuing right uh yeah right only blu-rays 00:17:12.068 --> 00:17:14.788 as well and just go back to what you're saying as 00:17:14.788 --> 00:17:17.728 well so much of what has been preserved from the old days 00:17:17.728 --> 00:17:20.888 before digital media was done because people were 00:17:20.888 --> 00:17:23.788 preserving stuff you know look at how people discover new episode 00:17:23.788 --> 00:17:26.608 well new old episodes of Doctor Who for 00:17:26.608 --> 00:17:29.328 instance it will be because somebody has found either a reel 00:17:29.328 --> 00:17:32.148 in a salt cave somewhere or somebody in South Africa 00:17:32.148 --> 00:17:35.668 has taped it onto a rapidly deteriorating VHS and 00:17:35.668 --> 00:17:39.608 then they will they will you know find them they will repair them and they will 00:17:39.608 --> 00:17:44.888 put them out again and that's just not the case really in digital to the same 00:17:44.888 --> 00:17:49.388 extent like It's one of those issues where physical media and the denigration 00:17:49.388 --> 00:17:52.748 of it in the era of streaming means that this is exacerbated. 00:17:52.828 --> 00:17:54.648 This is much more of a problem than it would be. 00:17:55.068 --> 00:17:59.508 Yeah, obviously, it costs hundreds of thousands, millions of pounds to actually 00:17:59.508 --> 00:18:02.728 go out and discover these lost pieces of physical media. 00:18:03.368 --> 00:18:07.288 But at the same time, they are being preserved somewhere. Think about how many 00:18:07.288 --> 00:18:11.348 times we found a work print of a movie that shows some behind-the-scenes stuff, 00:18:11.388 --> 00:18:13.808 and that then gets added to a new piece of physical media. 00:18:13.808 --> 00:18:17.208 And you can see behind the scenes, it's history, it's culture, 00:18:17.228 --> 00:18:18.228 and it's all being sort of, 00:18:18.408 --> 00:18:22.808 I think, left behind in this ephemeral digital age where things can just be 00:18:22.808 --> 00:18:28.488 cut from streaming services and people can be prosecuted for preserving them 00:18:28.488 --> 00:18:30.528 because that technically counts as piracy. 00:18:30.708 --> 00:18:36.008 It's just all wrapped together in this whole nightmare perfect storm of losing access to media. 00:18:36.008 --> 00:18:39.228 Yeah and it is as you're articulating 00:18:39.228 --> 00:18:43.028 very messy another element to 00:18:43.028 --> 00:18:45.928 this is stuff that's made and we just don't ever get 00:18:45.928 --> 00:18:49.428 to see i'm thinking of course of david zaslov coming into 00:18:49.428 --> 00:18:52.648 warner brothers discovery spiking batgirl and 00:18:52.648 --> 00:18:59.128 other stuff basically as sort of as a tack right off i was thinking about that 00:18:59.128 --> 00:19:03.728 because they did what was it um coyote versus acme yeah that's one of them that 00:19:03.728 --> 00:19:08.568 went that got spiked but now they're talking about selling that yeah it might 00:19:08.568 --> 00:19:10.568 get it might get sold to other. 00:19:11.753 --> 00:19:15.313 Yeah that to me seems like 00:19:15.313 --> 00:19:18.073 a very dodgy bit of accountancy there 00:19:18.073 --> 00:19:20.753 oh no we're taking as a tax write-off but also by the way we're going 00:19:20.753 --> 00:19:24.113 to shout it listen listen chris and i are not accountants 00:19:24.113 --> 00:19:27.413 no we are 00:19:27.413 --> 00:19:30.753 categorically not accusing anyone of wrongdoing but the point 00:19:30.753 --> 00:19:34.393 about it is it is about the numbers with things like that and 00:19:34.393 --> 00:19:37.073 that is work that we 00:19:37.073 --> 00:19:39.973 just don't get to see and that's a kind of sad element to 00:19:39.973 --> 00:19:42.933 this as well what's your what's your take on something where it's 00:19:42.933 --> 00:19:45.673 been filmed as a pilot and hasn't been picked 00:19:45.673 --> 00:19:48.513 up so we just had for instance the the 00:19:48.513 --> 00:19:53.593 lost power of girls pilot for a live action one just got uh leaked for instance 00:19:53.593 --> 00:19:58.273 arguably does damage to the parent brand um the leak has obviously come from 00:19:58.273 --> 00:20:02.873 somewhere internal which is against all sorts of employment laws and everyone's 00:20:02.873 --> 00:20:06.633 busted it oh yeah yeah yeah so to what extent do you feel like that That is 00:20:06.633 --> 00:20:07.653 the kind of stuff that is, 00:20:07.893 --> 00:20:13.313 is that okay to kind of let life fallow? Or is that the sort of stuff that we should be? 00:20:13.753 --> 00:20:16.553 I mean, Batgirl, for instance, that was a full, complete movie. 00:20:16.673 --> 00:20:19.593 And by all accounts, it was supposed to be good. But kind of the lost pilots, 00:20:19.693 --> 00:20:21.293 like the one for the old Wonder Woman series. 00:20:22.293 --> 00:20:25.733 What's your sort of take on that? Because it's a gray area. I'm noticing a theme 00:20:25.733 --> 00:20:29.313 that it's often things featuring strong female characters that disappear. 00:20:30.753 --> 00:20:33.713 But i think look the 00:20:33.713 --> 00:20:36.953 nature of pilots is sometimes the thing doesn't you know 00:20:36.953 --> 00:20:39.653 come to light and the nature of pilots 00:20:39.653 --> 00:20:42.473 is sometimes the thing doesn't get made and that is fair enough that 00:20:42.473 --> 00:20:45.453 is the nature of the beast and that is very different to 00:20:45.453 --> 00:20:48.913 what you and i are talking about which is decades of 00:20:48.913 --> 00:20:51.773 released work disappearing that is very different 00:20:51.773 --> 00:20:54.613 and it's also different to this idea of a movie that 00:20:54.613 --> 00:20:58.733 you've made that you suddenly don't think is going to go well that you spike 00:20:58.733 --> 00:21:02.913 as a cost-cutting measure that's also a different thing if you've made a show 00:21:02.913 --> 00:21:07.253 and you don't think it's very good I think as a studio you're entitled to say 00:21:07.253 --> 00:21:11.373 do you know what thanks for doing the pilot we're not doing it that is very 00:21:11.373 --> 00:21:14.273 different to the two different things the two things we're talking about, 00:21:15.210 --> 00:21:17.050 Something that you mentioned earlier, which I want to bring up, 00:21:17.170 --> 00:21:23.870 is the fact that text, just by its nature, is so much more easy to preserve digitally. 00:21:25.470 --> 00:21:29.210 I've read a lot of William Hope Hodgson. A lot of his stuff is out of print, 00:21:29.310 --> 00:21:34.170 but it's available in Wikimedia Commons. It's available on archives. 00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:38.370 It's available on the Gutenberg Project, I think. 00:21:38.650 --> 00:21:41.670 But then that's all readily available. text 00:21:41.670 --> 00:21:44.870 is there and we sort of treat that with the reverence it 00:21:44.870 --> 00:21:48.630 deserves but that doesn't necessarily i don't 00:21:48.630 --> 00:21:52.290 feel like other stuff like games and that gets that appreciation 00:21:52.290 --> 00:21:55.770 like gaming is what the most lucrative entertainment 00:21:55.770 --> 00:21:58.950 medium on earth it's ip spans 00:21:58.950 --> 00:22:04.250 television it spans yeah it spans ip spans movies books everything pretty much 00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:09.270 it doesn't get afforded that kind of um respect but it almost doesn't matter 00:22:09.270 --> 00:22:12.710 it's just like text gets this veneration and these other forms of media don't 00:22:12.710 --> 00:22:16.370 they're sort of allowed to fall away and die they're seeing as almost lesser. 00:22:18.670 --> 00:22:23.810 Look i guess that is true i think part of the thing with text is it's existed for much longer, 00:22:24.850 --> 00:22:27.730 you know text art of all 00:22:27.730 --> 00:22:30.890 forms you know drawing even you know original kind 00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:33.730 of sketches and stuff gets preserved in a way 00:22:33.730 --> 00:22:37.330 just because it's been around for so long and 00:22:37.330 --> 00:22:40.870 i think we now need to 00:22:40.870 --> 00:22:44.070 have had a serious conversation about how 00:22:44.070 --> 00:22:46.930 we preserve the rest of this stuff the kind 00:22:46.930 --> 00:22:50.270 of stuff i talk about on this show every week that is the 00:22:50.270 --> 00:22:53.730 streaming stuff the content that goes into the digital ether 00:22:53.730 --> 00:22:57.270 and does deserve 00:22:57.270 --> 00:23:00.530 preserve you know need preserving what happens for example and 00:23:00.530 --> 00:23:03.430 i don't think this would ever happen but paramount could say 00:23:03.430 --> 00:23:06.450 all right the star trek archive not doing 00:23:06.450 --> 00:23:09.150 enough for us we're putting the look of 00:23:09.150 --> 00:23:12.490 panic on chris's face do not do not joke oh my god 00:23:12.490 --> 00:23:16.170 nothing is allowed to happen to tng wow chris's 00:23:16.170 --> 00:23:18.810 face as i started that sentence you've never seen anything like it 00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:24.490 i think he's come out in hives but joking aside you could uh paramount could 00:23:24.490 --> 00:23:27.330 say do you know what we're going to keep discovery because it's a new modern 00:23:27.330 --> 00:23:32.190 thing but Voyager TNG the original 00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:36.290 series doesn't do enough for us we're pulling it off Paramount Plus. 00:23:38.643 --> 00:23:42.463 They could do that. And then what happens to this iconic series that has been 00:23:42.463 --> 00:23:44.523 so groundbreaking in so many ways? 00:23:46.703 --> 00:23:49.683 It's a hypothetical, but it's the kind of thing you're talking about. 00:23:49.863 --> 00:23:53.143 Oh, yeah. Hope you kept your DVDs and Blu-rays and everything. 00:23:53.343 --> 00:23:57.643 That's when that physical media becomes more important. 00:23:58.223 --> 00:24:01.823 In fact, it becomes kind of the method of preservation. 00:24:02.183 --> 00:24:05.903 And yet, for cost purposes, obviously, people moving away from that and into digital only. 00:24:05.903 --> 00:24:09.743 So yeah hold on to it and then hope to god that you still have a working blu-ray 00:24:09.743 --> 00:24:16.243 player or send it out to some blu-ray hipster specialist blu-ray repair shop in 30 40 years. 00:24:17.443 --> 00:24:20.543 The physical side of this is worth exploring 00:24:20.543 --> 00:24:23.343 because you mentioned that sony's basically giving up on 00:24:23.343 --> 00:24:26.003 blu-ray it'll be a while before it's 00:24:26.003 --> 00:24:30.643 gone but it'll be a while before it's gone but eventually games 00:24:30.643 --> 00:24:33.823 consoles are not going to play dvds and that format 00:24:33.823 --> 00:24:36.683 event you know people are going to stop buying that oh it's 00:24:36.683 --> 00:24:39.523 it's close like my i've got a my ps5 has 00:24:39.523 --> 00:24:42.523 a disc drive but my brother's doesn't and you know the cost saving the 00:24:42.523 --> 00:24:45.623 cost saving version of the ps5 does not have disc 00:24:45.623 --> 00:24:48.443 slot yeah absolutely and that goes back to something 00:24:48.443 --> 00:24:52.283 else i wanted to mention sorry which is you don't you know places are now changing 00:24:52.283 --> 00:24:55.483 the terms of purchasing online they're making it much more explicit you are 00:24:55.483 --> 00:24:58.843 not purchasing the product you're purchasing a license to play that product 00:24:58.843 --> 00:25:04.203 and it can be revoked so you can pay for this full price game and then years 00:25:04.203 --> 00:25:05.783 down the line they can and go, well, actually, no, 00:25:06.003 --> 00:25:09.043 the license has run out. You are no longer allowed to play this. 00:25:09.283 --> 00:25:12.503 So it's all getting bundled into digital distribution and the changing nature 00:25:12.503 --> 00:25:14.123 of how people purchase online as well. 00:25:14.903 --> 00:25:18.983 I feel like in five, ten years, the crisis is really going to come to a head 00:25:18.983 --> 00:25:21.683 where we're not going to be able to access some of the formative things that 00:25:21.683 --> 00:25:27.923 people experienced during kind of the mid to late, or even the entirety of the 2020s. 00:25:29.173 --> 00:25:35.153 Never mind before that. And the thing is, look, media nerds like you and I care 00:25:35.153 --> 00:25:36.873 about this stuff, can go on about this stuff. 00:25:37.033 --> 00:25:40.973 For the vast majority of people, it's not going to affect them. 00:25:41.093 --> 00:25:41.953 They're not going to care. 00:25:42.553 --> 00:25:45.773 But in a way that makes it more incumbent on 00:25:45.773 --> 00:25:48.793 media nerds to worry about preserving 00:25:48.793 --> 00:25:52.273 this stuff and work to preserve it and equally to 00:25:52.273 --> 00:25:55.753 have you know the librarians of 00:25:55.753 --> 00:26:01.433 all kinds on board with preserving this kind of work because otherwise it will 00:26:01.433 --> 00:26:04.533 just evaporate as i you know the phrase i keep using because that is what it 00:26:04.533 --> 00:26:09.553 feels like yeah i i think that you're right that it's people who are in this 00:26:09.553 --> 00:26:13.413 industry who think about this kind of stuff more You can embrace being a nerd, it's okay Oh yeah, 00:26:13.513 --> 00:26:19.673 100% You heard my panic about the TNG removal I think there's a phantom pain 00:26:19.673 --> 00:26:23.253 for people who've grown up with stuff and had it removed The one I think about 00:26:23.253 --> 00:26:27.773 all the time because it's my mum's favourite film is The Muppet Christmas Carol 00:26:27.773 --> 00:26:31.493 and for a while you could not get the version of that with the song, 00:26:32.513 --> 00:26:34.533 Oh God, what's the song that Belle sings? 00:26:35.253 --> 00:26:38.833 When Love Is Gone That version just did not exist anywhere but she remembered 00:26:38.833 --> 00:26:42.573 it and every time we'd watch that movie she would go was there not a song there? 00:26:42.833 --> 00:26:45.753 And you go yeah it is but that version is not available anywhere else wait a 00:26:45.753 --> 00:26:46.713 Marvel Christmas Carol is on Disney Plus? 00:26:47.133 --> 00:26:51.633 Yeah but for a long time that version which yeah it is but for a long time the 00:26:51.633 --> 00:26:57.133 version of it with that one song did not exist anywhere to own or purchase I think it was just a. 00:26:58.592 --> 00:27:01.572 I don't know whether they lost the original like film print 00:27:01.572 --> 00:27:04.272 of it or whatever but it wasn't available and then eventually they 00:27:04.272 --> 00:27:06.992 found it it's been re-released with that on disney plus 00:27:06.992 --> 00:27:09.792 it's been re-released on blu-ray with that kind of stuff i went to 00:27:09.792 --> 00:27:13.812 see it over christmas at the princess theater it was amazing but it 00:27:13.812 --> 00:27:16.712 people feel it people want to watch stuff that they 00:27:16.712 --> 00:27:20.792 knew and they don't have access to it so we've 00:27:20.792 --> 00:27:23.612 only got a couple of minutes left so we're going to solve 00:27:23.612 --> 00:27:26.792 this problem what do we have to do chris go uh well 00:27:26.792 --> 00:27:31.532 i think that the the the arguments to legislate for preservation of this kind 00:27:31.532 --> 00:27:36.012 of stuff for heritage's sake for artistic sake is is worthwhile and it's worth 00:27:36.012 --> 00:27:40.712 pursuing getting governments to go actually you know what we do need to archive 00:27:40.712 --> 00:27:45.652 this kind of stuff and we should find a way to either encourage or motivate, 00:27:46.132 --> 00:27:50.112 companies that hold this ip to do so um i don't know what that looks like i 00:27:50.112 --> 00:27:54.272 am not smart enough but i feel like there is if that also helps because if these 00:27:54.272 --> 00:27:57.372 companies recognize there is consumer movement they're more likely to kind of 00:27:57.372 --> 00:27:59.932 do this stuff anyway i feel like we also need to. 00:28:00.532 --> 00:28:03.352 Really reward places like vinegar syndrome or good 00:28:03.352 --> 00:28:06.092 old games that are doing this kind of stuff because they 00:28:06.092 --> 00:28:09.792 recognize the artistic value of it beyond that i 00:28:09.792 --> 00:28:12.552 mean i certainly don't know how we solve the the uh the 00:28:12.552 --> 00:28:15.752 football issue oh well that's a very that's arguably 00:28:15.752 --> 00:28:18.892 the easiest of all the issues to solve because you just 00:28:18.892 --> 00:28:21.892 have to change a piece of legislation yeah you could 00:28:21.892 --> 00:28:25.272 legislate against the backer that in the way that's a brushstroke yeah that's 00:28:25.272 --> 00:28:29.152 in relative terms the easiest because i'm 00:28:29.152 --> 00:28:32.232 thinking of going into libraries and being 00:28:32.232 --> 00:28:34.932 able to access this work and i guess it is 00:28:34.932 --> 00:28:39.412 going to be a combination of legislative library consumer 00:28:39.412 --> 00:28:45.912 effort that encourages people to do this work but if yeah funding for like internet 00:28:45.912 --> 00:28:49.652 archive would be would be perfect that's constantly on its last legs it feels 00:28:49.652 --> 00:28:53.052 like so once that goes you know what you mentioned vinegar syndrome a few times 00:28:53.052 --> 00:28:56.652 you mentioned the internet archive those are kind of voluntary run. 00:28:58.016 --> 00:29:01.096 Hobby website you know they're not 00:29:01.096 --> 00:29:04.376 huge businesses they're in theory 00:29:04.376 --> 00:29:07.196 they could be wiped out too is really what yeah exactly well 00:29:07.196 --> 00:29:10.496 yeah you need more backstops and i think 00:29:10.496 --> 00:29:13.756 you know talking about what we can do about it i have 00:29:13.756 --> 00:29:16.536 on my on my desktop i have a youtube video saved which was 00:29:16.536 --> 00:29:19.436 taken down because of a copyright strike and it exists now on mirrors and 00:29:19.436 --> 00:29:22.516 sort of people's google drives and stuff it was completely erroneous copyright 00:29:22.516 --> 00:29:26.256 strike it doesn't matter but that is a kind 00:29:26.256 --> 00:29:29.616 of piece of living history now and it. 00:29:29.616 --> 00:29:32.416 It feels for a listen it feels a little bit minor but 00:29:32.416 --> 00:29:35.416 it's kind of this microcosm of what's happening to digital media as 00:29:35.416 --> 00:29:38.056 a whole and i'm going to hang on to that and i'm going 00:29:38.056 --> 00:29:40.836 to share it with people when i can and i think 00:29:40.836 --> 00:29:43.996 that maybe we need to be a little bit more open to the idea that it's not necessarily 00:29:43.996 --> 00:29:48.176 piracy that we're doing a lot of cases it is preservation yeah piracy 00:29:48.176 --> 00:29:51.676 versus preservation it's a huge debate i'm so glad that 00:29:51.676 --> 00:29:54.556 we've started on this show and you've brought it up here we could 00:29:54.556 --> 00:29:57.556 carry on debating it for hours but we'll we should wrap things 00:29:57.556 --> 00:30:00.336 up because it is you know maybe we'll have you'll 00:30:00.336 --> 00:30:03.796 have to come back as we see how some of this develops where 00:30:03.796 --> 00:30:06.556 can people keep up with you chris uh they can find me on blue 00:30:06.556 --> 00:30:09.296 sky um just chris msutcliffe uh they 00:30:09.296 --> 00:30:12.416 can find me over on voices.media um otherwise 00:30:12.416 --> 00:30:15.516 i am on twitch at twitch.tv forward slash 00:30:15.516 --> 00:30:18.996 csuts um or basically just holler 00:30:18.996 --> 00:30:21.796 online and i'm always around yeah chris has 00:30:21.796 --> 00:30:24.536 been telling me about the vagaries of twitch i'm kind of 00:30:24.536 --> 00:30:28.376 fascinated by it as a product because it's like super super 00:30:28.376 --> 00:30:31.416 pop anyway i'm at charlotte henry across social 00:30:31.416 --> 00:30:34.776 media uh if you're listening to this i'm sure 00:30:34.776 --> 00:30:38.496 you know about the edition.net which is where i post newsletters blogs 00:30:38.496 --> 00:30:41.296 and this very podcast i would 00:30:41.296 --> 00:30:45.596 so love it if you headed over there and took out a paid subscription to the 00:30:45.596 --> 00:30:49.416 newsletter because that helps keep the whole show on the road so that is the 00:30:49.416 --> 00:30:55.556 edition.net chris thank you so much for being back on the show i'm so excited. 00:30:55.556 --> 00:31:00.856 To see what you guys are doing at media voices and i'll see you all next week. 00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:10.075 Music.