WEBVTT 00:00:19.284 --> 00:00:22.704 Hello and welcome to The Edition podcast. 00:00:23.004 --> 00:00:27.184 I'm Charlotte Henry, the host and writer of The Edition newsletter. 00:00:27.484 --> 00:00:32.184 This week I am joined by Kevin Schofield, the political editor of HuffPost UK 00:00:32.184 --> 00:00:37.664 here in London, although you might gather he's not a born and bred Londoner from this accent. 00:00:37.804 --> 00:00:40.164 How are you, Kev? I'm good, thanks, Charlotte. 00:00:40.484 --> 00:00:43.024 Nice to be here. Lovely to have you. 00:00:44.444 --> 00:00:49.804 Quiet couple of weeks for you in the world of politics not much been going on mate, 00:00:50.744 --> 00:00:55.344 no I mean it's quiet I don't know what you found to write about yeah it's been 00:00:55.344 --> 00:00:59.984 a real struggle I mean it's been non-stop since the start of the year really if you think about, 00:01:00.984 --> 00:01:04.244 the Donald Trump Greenland stuff, 00:01:05.504 --> 00:01:05.984 Venezuela. 00:01:07.444 --> 00:01:10.244 That seems like a different world now that was such 00:01:10.244 --> 00:01:12.944 a big story it dominated everything now that seems to 00:01:12.944 --> 00:01:15.824 be like just evaporating a bit which 00:01:15.824 --> 00:01:19.064 possibly says something about our media environment yeah there's 00:01:19.064 --> 00:01:23.504 been a few more domestic um stories obviously in the last couple of weeks there's 00:01:23.504 --> 00:01:28.984 the andy burnham stuff um with the by-election and then you know we've come 00:01:28.984 --> 00:01:34.284 straight into all the other um craziness of the past um past couple of weeks 00:01:34.284 --> 00:01:37.584 so yeah it's just been non-stop i mean it's good fun, 00:01:38.325 --> 00:01:45.425 And I would much rather it was like this than quiet. But you just can't really 00:01:45.425 --> 00:01:47.605 get a chance to take a breath. 00:01:47.825 --> 00:01:51.805 It is just relentless, you know, and you just don't know from one, 00:01:51.805 --> 00:01:54.345 I was going to say from one week to the next, but you don't really know from 00:01:54.345 --> 00:01:57.405 one day to the next what is going to come because, you know, 00:01:57.605 --> 00:01:59.625 the things just come out of nowhere. 00:01:59.845 --> 00:02:05.925 Like the Peter Mandelson revelations, you know, that was a remarkably quick story to reach. 00:02:05.925 --> 00:02:12.245 Critical crisis point for the government and then you had an attempted coup 00:02:12.245 --> 00:02:16.605 against Keir Starmer at the beginning of the last week You nearly had a new 00:02:16.605 --> 00:02:25.165 Prime Minister to report on Well we're all when it emerged that Anasaro had called this, 00:02:26.005 --> 00:02:28.705 So for American listeners let's break this down. 00:02:29.565 --> 00:02:33.005 A bit because it's obviously 00:02:33.005 --> 00:02:36.045 and also for HuffPost UK obviously do have American readers 00:02:36.045 --> 00:02:38.705 as well so here in the uk uh there were 00:02:38.705 --> 00:02:41.545 devolved parliament scotland uh northern ireland and wales 00:02:41.545 --> 00:02:44.385 and the leader of the labor party of 00:02:44.385 --> 00:02:47.305 the british government uh but there is sakir 00:02:47.305 --> 00:02:50.225 starby's the prime minister and then the leader of that party in scotland is 00:02:50.225 --> 00:02:55.505 a chap called anas by all counts a relatively impressive figure uh there's people 00:02:55.505 --> 00:03:01.525 who are you know quite big fans of his and thought he begot greater things um 00:03:01.525 --> 00:03:05.425 in the midst of the peter manderson scandal which is one of the great transatlantic 00:03:05.425 --> 00:03:08.585 stories of our recent times, 00:03:09.325 --> 00:03:12.385 he stood up as leader of the Labour Party in Scotland and said Sir Keir Starmer 00:03:12.385 --> 00:03:17.945 as the leader of the Labour Party UK and the Prime Minister should resign. 00:03:18.165 --> 00:03:21.645 He got a whole bunch of journalists together in Scotland and said that on the 00:03:21.645 --> 00:03:24.365 record, on camera, in front of them. 00:03:25.119 --> 00:03:28.459 So let's break down how that day goes for you in Westminster, 00:03:28.459 --> 00:03:31.099 first of all, because you're based in Westminster in what's called the lobby. 00:03:31.779 --> 00:03:36.699 So you've got colleagues, you know, your equivalents in Scotland sort of get wind of this. 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:41.219 You write up that that's happening. How does that navigate between Westminster, 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:44.519 Edinburgh? How does that all play out? 00:03:45.939 --> 00:03:50.059 So that day itself was a Monday. Sure. 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.619 I think it was a Monday anyway. That's quite a Monday, why not? 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:01.359 It was, and we have this thing, for your listeners who don't know this, 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:04.379 we have this thing every day called Lobby, 00:04:04.579 --> 00:04:11.919 which is political journalists go into Downing Street and get to ask the Prime 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:14.999 Minister's official spokesman anything we want. 00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:19.559 And he has to sit there and answer all our questions until there are no more questions to be asked. 00:04:19.559 --> 00:04:25.079 Now, as you say, there was already the Peter Mandelson stuff was still flying 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:29.019 around, and it became... 00:04:29.019 --> 00:04:32.239 I can't remember if it was towards the end of Lobby or as we were leaving, 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:35.059 but word started to filter through 00:04:35.059 --> 00:04:40.959 that Anas Sarwar had called this press conference for the afternoon. 00:04:41.499 --> 00:04:45.819 Everyone's phones started ringing, did they? Yeah, exactly, and I mean, 00:04:45.939 --> 00:04:48.559 you know what it's like nowadays with social media, WhatsApp, 00:04:48.859 --> 00:04:53.059 you know, things don't tend to take long to spread. 00:04:54.479 --> 00:04:59.879 So we came out of there about, let me think, probably 12.30 we came out of lobby 00:04:59.879 --> 00:05:03.179 and the press conference had been called for 2.30. 00:05:03.799 --> 00:05:09.799 Spoke to a couple of contacts, Scottish Labour MPs, to find out what they'd 00:05:09.799 --> 00:05:15.219 heard and it soon became apparent that Anasarwa was going to stand up and call 00:05:15.219 --> 00:05:17.579 for Keir Starmer. So there's a new, 00:05:18.710 --> 00:05:22.950 They are ostensibly allies. They're members of the same political party. 00:05:23.970 --> 00:05:30.930 They've campaigned together, and Asarwar is a moderate in the Labour Party in 00:05:30.930 --> 00:05:32.350 the same way that Keir Starmer is. 00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:35.710 So they're from the same sort of political area. 00:05:35.790 --> 00:05:38.170 And we'll have to go campaigning together in the coming weeks, 00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:40.110 because there's elections coming up in Scotland. 00:05:40.550 --> 00:05:45.110 Well, exactly. So the context of this is that on the 7th of May, 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:48.190 there will be elections for the Scottish Parliament. 00:05:48.710 --> 00:05:55.410 For the Welsh, Seneth and English councils, thousands of council seats up for grabs. 00:05:55.950 --> 00:06:01.270 But the main context for Anas Sarwar's intervention is the Scottish Parliament election. 00:06:01.490 --> 00:06:06.950 Now, at the moment he leads the Scottish Labour Party, the SNP, 00:06:07.010 --> 00:06:10.390 the Scottish National Party, are in government, have been in government since 2007. 00:06:11.445 --> 00:06:16.005 And Labour are trying to re-enter government. Now, all the opinion polls suggest 00:06:16.005 --> 00:06:17.385 they've got absolutely no chance. 00:06:17.505 --> 00:06:22.565 They could well even finish third behind Reform UK in second place, 00:06:22.565 --> 00:06:25.085 which would be a remarkable result. That would be staggering. 00:06:25.685 --> 00:06:31.925 Now, Scottish Labour think that the crux of their problems is Keir Starmer's unpopularity. 00:06:31.985 --> 00:06:37.185 They think Keir Starmer, or they say that Keir Starmer is unbelievably unpopular. 00:06:37.185 --> 00:06:41.505 And if you look at where Keir Starmer's popularity has collapsed, 00:06:41.965 --> 00:06:45.285 the Scottish Labour Party's vote has collapsed at the same time. 00:06:45.365 --> 00:06:48.125 So they say, get rid of Keir Starmer, replace him with anyone, 00:06:48.965 --> 00:06:51.785 and it will be good for Scottish Labour. 00:06:52.025 --> 00:06:55.525 I'm not so sure about that, I think, given that we're only less than three months 00:06:55.525 --> 00:06:57.805 away from the election. I think it's probably too late for that. 00:06:58.365 --> 00:07:02.485 But I guess Anas Sauer had to try something. And even if he failed, 00:07:02.705 --> 00:07:06.805 he sent out the message to Scottish voters, look, I don't like Keir Starmer 00:07:06.805 --> 00:07:08.665 either. I'm just, I'm on your side. 00:07:08.945 --> 00:07:12.705 I think the guy's useless, even though he's the leader of my party. 00:07:13.845 --> 00:07:17.745 I agree with you. He's not very good. I've tried to get rid of them. 00:07:17.805 --> 00:07:19.385 Listen, we've all had bosses we want to get rid of, Kev, right? 00:07:19.825 --> 00:07:22.485 Well, yeah, exactly. But the thing is, you've got to be careful. 00:07:22.485 --> 00:07:26.265 If you call publicly for them to go and they don't, then you're in a bit of bother. 00:07:27.785 --> 00:07:31.545 So, annoyed. Come for the king, you better not miss. Well, quite exactly. 00:07:31.685 --> 00:07:34.945 That's exactly what people say. Now, you speak to Scottish Labour MPs, 00:07:35.065 --> 00:07:39.245 and by and large they are opposed to what Anas Sauer did. 00:07:39.365 --> 00:07:43.445 They think it was crazy, and it's unhelpful to Keir Starmer. 00:07:44.345 --> 00:07:49.485 Slightly different attitude among Scottish Labour people in Scotland itself. 00:07:49.485 --> 00:07:54.925 They think it was a necessary thing that Anas Sauer did. However, so... 00:07:55.484 --> 00:08:02.684 Rewind back to that day, we all thought, well, this is potentially curtains for Keir Starmer. 00:08:02.924 --> 00:08:04.944 There's no way Anas Arwar will be doing this alone. 00:08:05.524 --> 00:08:11.964 Others may well, possibly even cabinet ministers, may well resign and say that 00:08:11.964 --> 00:08:15.004 they agree with Anas Arwar, in which case Keir Starmer's probably done. 00:08:15.844 --> 00:08:21.304 So for that two-hour period, it did look as though Keir Starmer's whole premiership 00:08:21.304 --> 00:08:29.284 was about to collapse. But as it turned out, Anas Sarwar jumped and no one followed him. 00:08:29.804 --> 00:08:36.184 He went alone, no cabinet minister followed and in actual fact Downing Street 00:08:36.184 --> 00:08:38.944 mounted a very good operation actually. 00:08:38.944 --> 00:08:44.864 Managed to get every single member of the cabinet to tweet their full support for Keir Starmer. 00:08:45.044 --> 00:08:49.264 So, bizarrely, what had started off as being a potentially awful day, 00:08:49.684 --> 00:08:54.644 potentially fatal for Keir Starmer, he ended up a little bit stronger because 00:08:54.644 --> 00:08:57.384 he had managed to get all of his cabinet members, 00:08:57.984 --> 00:09:02.224 many of whom do not like Keir Starmer, think that he should be replaced, 00:09:02.464 --> 00:09:06.064 but publicly they had to go public and support him. 00:09:06.604 --> 00:09:10.784 Then, later in the evening, he was already down to be addressing the parliamentary 00:09:10.784 --> 00:09:14.984 Labour Party meeting. So this is a weekly meeting that takes place of Labour 00:09:14.984 --> 00:09:18.784 MPs and peers normally addressed by a member of the Cabinet, 00:09:19.064 --> 00:09:20.504 occasionally by the Prime Minister. 00:09:20.864 --> 00:09:24.124 Keir Starmer was already down to address them. 00:09:26.479 --> 00:09:29.819 Looked as though it could be a very, very difficult meeting for him. 00:09:30.119 --> 00:09:32.519 He went in, got a huge stand in ovation. 00:09:32.999 --> 00:09:37.359 It all went very well. He took 44 questions, which is a remarkable amount in 00:09:37.359 --> 00:09:39.379 a space of an hour and a bit. 00:09:40.439 --> 00:09:45.359 The vast majority of them very supportive. And he ended the day bolstered. 00:09:45.439 --> 00:09:49.339 Now, by no means out of the woods. I think it's a stay of execution, personally. 00:09:49.579 --> 00:09:55.159 But it was a remarkable day, even by Westminster standards. At one point it 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:59.559 looked like the Prime Minister was about to go and then he ended it actually a little bit stronger. 00:09:59.839 --> 00:10:03.639 So yeah, it was a pretty crazy 12 hours or so. 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:07.099 So when you, as a journalist in Westminster, this is what I really want to get 00:10:07.099 --> 00:10:10.899 insight from my listeners, when you're a journalist in Westminster dealing with 00:10:10.899 --> 00:10:14.499 a day like that, how do you keep up with it all? 00:10:14.659 --> 00:10:18.879 And most importantly, how do you keep your readers up to date with it all? 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:25.339 Now, obviously, you have the advantage at HuffPo that you're on a website, right? 00:10:25.779 --> 00:10:29.919 You don't need to get something in print for the next day. You can have the latest. 00:10:30.119 --> 00:10:34.639 If you have to file one story coming out of Downing Street and another at five 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:38.859 o'clock and another a bit later to update people, the great thing about being 00:10:38.859 --> 00:10:42.679 on a digital platform like you is you can do that. It's not a problem, right? 00:10:43.019 --> 00:10:49.159 That's what's expected of you. But how do you navigate a chaotic day like that 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:50.479 as a journalist in Westminster? 00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:56.879 I mean, I think one thing you have to bear in mind is that you have to be sure 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.699 of the story before you write it. 00:11:00.819 --> 00:11:04.439 So you can't just go... Oh, Kevin, come on. When does that ever matter to us 00:11:04.439 --> 00:11:05.419 as journalists? Well, I know. 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:14.719 Call me old-fashioned, if you like. But you can't just go with what Twitter or X is saying. 00:11:15.359 --> 00:11:20.899 Also, even colleagues, you know, esteemed colleagues who are highly reputable 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:23.019 and you know that they wouldn't take flyers. 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:27.419 If you see them maybe tweeting something, personally, I still like to check 00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:30.499 it out for myself. So I will... How old-fashioned of you? 00:11:31.119 --> 00:11:38.279 ...speak to my own contacts. So that, for instance, I want you to be doubly sure. 00:11:38.459 --> 00:11:43.359 Before we wrote anything saying, Anas Arwa is going to call on Keir Stammer 00:11:43.359 --> 00:11:45.819 to resign, I want you to be absolutely 100% sure. 00:11:45.819 --> 00:11:49.879 So I spoke to one or two people and then we wrote... You've got to take a decision 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:55.359 whether to wait until he said it before reporting it or report it in advance 00:11:55.359 --> 00:11:57.999 and then just update the story with his comments. 00:11:58.179 --> 00:12:02.039 So we decided, yeah, you've got to kind of, we couldn't really sit in it for an hour or so. 00:12:02.119 --> 00:12:05.459 So we just wrote the story that this is what he's going to do. 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:07.119 He's going to call for Keir Starmer to resign. 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:16.619 And then we updated the story initially with his comments and Asarbar's comments 00:12:16.619 --> 00:12:19.959 calling on Keir Starmer to resign. And then it was a case of, 00:12:20.019 --> 00:12:22.359 right, well, where does the story go from here? 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:27.299 And as I said earlier, the expectation was that other people, 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:31.299 senior people in the Labour Party would follow suit. 00:12:31.539 --> 00:12:36.839 So presumably at that point, you're chasing around, speaking to every minister, 00:12:37.079 --> 00:12:38.679 cabinet minister you can get hold of. 00:12:39.947 --> 00:12:42.767 And saying, are you going to call for the Prime Minister to resign? 00:12:42.887 --> 00:12:45.427 Was it as blatant as that at this point? 00:12:45.767 --> 00:12:49.667 Yeah, you just fire out lots of text messages. I mean, you try to phone them, 00:12:49.767 --> 00:12:51.987 but you're not expecting them to pick up the phone. 00:12:52.027 --> 00:12:55.347 You're not really expecting them to reply either. 00:12:56.507 --> 00:12:59.767 But you've got to try it. I mean, from reporting on politics, 00:12:59.947 --> 00:13:03.887 it's about quantity as well at some point, isn't it? 00:13:04.647 --> 00:13:09.307 Exactly, yeah. So you have to kind of put in the legwork. 00:13:10.047 --> 00:13:15.347 But as I said earlier, Number 10 did mount a really impressive operation. 00:13:16.567 --> 00:13:19.967 Which they haven't always done with comms. No, they haven't. 00:13:20.147 --> 00:13:23.847 And, you know, other prime ministers have tried the same. 00:13:23.967 --> 00:13:30.067 You know, when Boris Johnson was up against it, they tried and failed to get 00:13:30.067 --> 00:13:34.467 every cabinet minister to come out and back him. 00:13:34.587 --> 00:13:37.827 And that, in many ways, is the worst of all worlds, you know, 00:13:37.827 --> 00:13:41.827 because there's the split in the cabinet and the lack of support for the Prime 00:13:41.827 --> 00:13:44.227 Minister is there in black and white writ large. 00:13:44.407 --> 00:13:51.107 Whereas this time around, we waited maybe for, I think it was maybe a half an 00:13:51.107 --> 00:13:57.667 hour, 45 minutes, and then one after the other, you started getting Rachel Reeves, David Lamme, 00:13:58.167 --> 00:14:02.427 all the way down to, I think the last one was Shabana Mahmood. The Home Secretary. 00:14:03.547 --> 00:14:07.487 And that was only because she was in the House of Commons, So she was dealing 00:14:07.487 --> 00:14:10.107 with a statement or questions or something. 00:14:10.227 --> 00:14:14.427 So she couldn't really tweet anything until she was free. 00:14:14.687 --> 00:14:19.027 So, but then, so then it quickly became a part that there wasn't going to be 00:14:19.027 --> 00:14:24.267 this massive coup, that this was a failed attempt, really, by Anna Sarwar to 00:14:24.267 --> 00:14:25.207 unseat the Prime Minister. 00:14:25.387 --> 00:14:32.167 So then that became the story. So we wrote a story on how the cabinet had rallied round Keir Starmer. 00:14:32.967 --> 00:14:38.887 And then subsequently the story then became Keir Starmer ends the day I think 00:14:38.887 --> 00:14:44.027 my story was something like Keir Starmer ends the day strengthened after. 00:14:46.478 --> 00:14:49.178 And that so that's where we were by the end of the day 00:14:49.178 --> 00:14:52.338 but as you say charlotte that's the beauty 00:14:52.338 --> 00:14:55.598 of working for an online publication is 00:14:55.598 --> 00:14:58.738 that you're not just having to to write one 00:14:58.738 --> 00:15:03.498 story at the end of the day for the following day's newspaper although every 00:15:03.498 --> 00:15:07.458 newspaper's got a website now so it's not quite like that as it used to be but 00:15:07.458 --> 00:15:13.478 you know you're able to update write new stories there's no limit you can write 00:15:13.478 --> 00:15:15.698 as many stories as you want. 00:15:17.018 --> 00:15:21.938 And it was a pretty exciting day to cover I was sitting outside the Parliamentary 00:15:21.938 --> 00:15:25.598 Labour Party the PLP as we call it sitting outside that meeting for over an 00:15:25.598 --> 00:15:31.218 hour trying to grab comments from MPs as they came and went so it was, 00:15:32.178 --> 00:15:35.978 really really good fun actually Well that's what I was going to ask you are 00:15:35.978 --> 00:15:37.938 you having fun when you're having days like this? 00:15:38.718 --> 00:15:41.778 Oh yeah I mean you would you would 00:15:41.778 --> 00:15:45.278 never swap a day like that for a day that's 00:15:45.278 --> 00:15:49.058 quieter or a day when you're having to really ferret 00:15:49.058 --> 00:15:51.778 around for stories because you know you still have to feed the 00:15:51.778 --> 00:15:55.098 beast you know you always you can't have a day this is the other side of the 00:15:55.098 --> 00:15:59.498 online publishing world you can't have a day where oh nothing's happening or 00:15:59.498 --> 00:16:03.478 it's quiet so you know we'll start working on something that might come to fruition 00:16:03.478 --> 00:16:07.278 in two or three days or you know i'll go for a nice long lunch or i'll just 00:16:07.278 --> 00:16:09.758 set up a load of coffees this afternoon with MPs or whatever. 00:16:09.998 --> 00:16:13.538 You still have to keep the site ticking over. 00:16:13.718 --> 00:16:19.938 So a busy day is much more preferable to a quiet day. So, yeah. 00:16:20.318 --> 00:16:23.818 And listen, we're really lucky in that probably since... 00:16:25.184 --> 00:16:28.784 Brexit, really, we've had so many days like that. 00:16:29.024 --> 00:16:34.524 I mean, absolutely bonkers. The Prime Minister's resigning, leadership elections, 00:16:34.804 --> 00:16:39.684 general elections, referees, I mean, you name it, it's just been largely non-stop, you know. 00:16:40.104 --> 00:16:45.384 Normal politics ended probably in about 2015, I think, and it's never come back. 00:16:45.464 --> 00:16:48.944 I have so many questions to ask you about this, but I do want to quickly give 00:16:48.944 --> 00:16:52.544 a shout-out to CleanMyMac, who are sponsoring this week's show. 00:16:52.644 --> 00:16:55.864 I'm thrilled they're supporting the show, because as listeners know, 00:16:56.164 --> 00:16:57.264 I've used the product for years. 00:16:57.744 --> 00:17:01.064 Clean by Mac is the ultimate solution for Mac control and care. 00:17:01.264 --> 00:17:05.384 It's notarized by Apple and meticulously crafted by my friends at MacPore. 00:17:05.724 --> 00:17:09.024 The service offers features including cloud cleanup. 00:17:09.124 --> 00:17:12.684 It connects your iCloud, OneDrive and Google Drive accounts, 00:17:12.964 --> 00:17:17.144 scanning to find large space wastes, synced and unsynced files, 00:17:17.504 --> 00:17:19.864 both in the cloud and on device. 00:17:20.144 --> 00:17:24.784 The good thing though is it happens locally, the scanning, so your data stays safe. 00:17:25.004 --> 00:17:29.464 There's also the cleanup and my clutter features, which are what I've used to 00:17:29.464 --> 00:17:32.464 keep my Macs going stronger and for longer. 00:17:32.784 --> 00:17:37.204 These tools remove system cache, development junk, and unnecessary files. 00:17:37.424 --> 00:17:41.104 Clear out the wrong kind of cookies from your computer, but you can keep eating 00:17:41.104 --> 00:17:43.444 the ones you like. Get tidy today. 00:17:43.724 --> 00:17:51.024 Try seven days free and use my code addition, A-double-D-I-T-I-O-N for 20% off 00:17:51.024 --> 00:17:55.624 at clny.com slash edition. 00:17:56.244 --> 00:18:00.104 That's clny.com slash edition. 00:18:00.324 --> 00:18:08.264 And edition is all uppercase A-D-D-I-T-I-O-N. A big thanks to Clean My Mac for supporting the show. 00:18:08.884 --> 00:18:11.064 Right, back to the chaos of Westminster. 00:18:12.464 --> 00:18:16.184 As a lobby, you kind of hunt in a pack, right, I always think, 00:18:16.284 --> 00:18:17.784 as a group of journalists. 00:18:17.964 --> 00:18:21.944 You know, I've covered general elections with the lobby and things like that. 00:18:22.084 --> 00:18:24.204 And it does feel you sort of hunt in a pack. 00:18:24.584 --> 00:18:26.364 Explain how that system works. 00:18:27.044 --> 00:18:34.164 Yeah, you're right. I mean, at the same time, you know, you do try to get your 00:18:34.164 --> 00:18:35.904 own stories and your own exclusives. 00:18:36.024 --> 00:18:40.244 But when there's a big story happening, we're all there together. 00:18:40.244 --> 00:18:46.604 Strip it right back, go back to lobby as we called it, the daily briefing we're 00:18:46.604 --> 00:18:51.304 all in there, we're all firing questions, kind of bouncing off one another. 00:18:52.864 --> 00:18:59.824 At the Prime Minister's official spokesman or the PLP meeting that I mentioned, 00:19:00.524 --> 00:19:06.484 or gnarly, if it's a quiet period you might get two or three journalists hanging 00:19:06.484 --> 00:19:11.524 around outside because they've got nothing better to do whereas last Monday 00:19:11.524 --> 00:19:15.284 night because of everything that had gone on that day and the Prime Minister was speaking at it 00:19:15.724 --> 00:19:19.884 was absolutely jam-packed it's quite a narrow corridor, committee corridor. 00:19:20.984 --> 00:19:24.984 Oh, that's the old part of the building in the Palace of Westminster The Palace of Westminster, 00:19:25.204 --> 00:19:30.024 yes so the PLP meeting takes place in committee room 14 which is the largest 00:19:30.024 --> 00:19:34.524 committee room and it can fit the largest number of MPs and peers in it although 00:19:34.524 --> 00:19:39.724 not everyone could get in there were MPs turning up and being turned away because 00:19:39.724 --> 00:19:42.684 it was literally jam-packed, they just could not get in the door. 00:19:43.184 --> 00:19:49.924 But there was dozens of us outside and that was a classic, hunting as a pack. 00:19:50.144 --> 00:19:55.744 I mean, one, you talk about literally hunting as a pack, and I remember during 00:19:55.744 --> 00:19:58.384 the Brexit years, Theresa May was still the Prime Minister, 00:19:59.050 --> 00:20:08.230 And the ERG, the European Research Group of... They were the ultra-Brexiteers. 00:20:08.470 --> 00:20:12.630 Ultra-Brexiteers. They were having a meeting to decide how they were going to 00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:16.630 vote in some vote about the Brexit deal. 00:20:17.330 --> 00:20:21.330 It was before Boris Johnson became Prime Minister and Boris Johnson was in the meeting as well. 00:20:21.570 --> 00:20:25.370 And everyone was sort of waiting to see how Boris was going to vote, 00:20:25.430 --> 00:20:28.670 if he was going to vote for the deal or not. So, again, there was loads of us 00:20:28.670 --> 00:20:33.650 all standing outside this committee room waiting to find out what was going 00:20:33.650 --> 00:20:35.410 on. And Boris Johnson emerged... 00:20:36.086 --> 00:20:40.486 Didn't send him to any of us. And we literally chased him. 00:20:41.006 --> 00:20:47.146 He ran, we chased after him until he got to a bit of the palace where only MPs 00:20:47.146 --> 00:20:48.986 could go and we couldn't go any further. 00:20:49.266 --> 00:20:51.866 And we're all firing questions at him. How are you voting, Boris? 00:20:51.986 --> 00:20:54.226 How are you voting? Are you accepting the deal? Are you voting against the deal? 00:20:54.406 --> 00:20:57.406 Do you want the Prime Minister to resign? All this type of stuff. 00:20:59.126 --> 00:21:02.846 And it was incredible. And we were literally hunting as a pack then. 00:21:02.986 --> 00:21:09.186 There were, again, dozens of us chasing Boris Johnson through the Palace of Westminster. 00:21:10.326 --> 00:21:14.926 And days like that are just so exciting. How often and what other jobs do you 00:21:14.926 --> 00:21:20.806 get to be able to be so up close to senior politicians getting to fire questions 00:21:20.806 --> 00:21:24.506 at them, which is a sign, I think, of a healthy democracy, obviously. 00:21:24.746 --> 00:21:29.746 Well, it is, and I want to come on to perhaps a sign of an unhealthy democracy 00:21:29.746 --> 00:21:32.826 that's broken over the last few days and I've written about in the newsletter. 00:21:32.826 --> 00:21:35.846 But just on that when things like that happen 00:21:35.846 --> 00:21:38.626 do you sometimes catch yourself going is this the best 00:21:38.626 --> 00:21:41.586 way to serve the public and cover point no i'm 00:21:41.586 --> 00:21:44.406 being serious because like yeah you know we've discussed it privately i'm 00:21:44.406 --> 00:21:47.506 happy to have the conversation in public whereas i'm quite cynical 00:21:47.506 --> 00:21:50.286 in lots of ways about the lobby system i think it's quite 00:21:50.286 --> 00:21:53.166 elitist and exclusive and shuts off people from 00:21:53.166 --> 00:21:57.046 covering politics in some ways maybe that's just because i don't have the relevant 00:21:57.046 --> 00:22:03.366 past and i'm bitter about it but um do you when you're having those kind of 00:22:03.366 --> 00:22:06.986 incidents you're like this has all become a bit of a game is this the best way 00:22:06.986 --> 00:22:10.546 to deal with politics and these big issues. 00:22:11.834 --> 00:22:14.534 No, I absolutely get what you're thinking. 00:22:14.814 --> 00:22:18.194 And there's a tendency towards groupthink from the lobby. 00:22:18.374 --> 00:22:23.534 You know, we all, because we hunt as a pack, we all, and there's none of us 00:22:23.534 --> 00:22:31.274 really want to be kind of on the outside, out on a limb in terms of how we write up a story. 00:22:31.354 --> 00:22:35.714 You know, if it's a big, big story, everyone tends to write it pretty much the same way. 00:22:36.334 --> 00:22:40.214 Exactly. And you don't want to be the one who's out on a limb thinking, 00:22:40.414 --> 00:22:42.254 well, why are they all writing it that way? and I'm writing, 00:22:42.354 --> 00:22:43.554 am I missing something here? 00:22:43.654 --> 00:22:46.954 You have your boss saying, why have you done it that way when they've all done 00:22:46.954 --> 00:22:49.874 it that way? So there is a tendency to groupthink. 00:22:50.054 --> 00:22:52.554 I think it's less elitist than it used to be. 00:22:52.754 --> 00:22:58.654 It's certainly more open to publications, online publications. 00:22:59.814 --> 00:23:05.094 It used to be pretty much a closed shop lobby. Now anyone with a parliamentary 00:23:05.094 --> 00:23:10.554 pass for the press gallery can go. It used to only be, 00:23:11.348 --> 00:23:14.228 senior journalist could go to lobby now anyone with 00:23:14.228 --> 00:23:17.168 a pass can go now i know what you're saying how 00:23:17.168 --> 00:23:20.168 do you get a pass um you get a pass you 00:23:20.168 --> 00:23:23.088 have to be part of an organization and then 00:23:23.088 --> 00:23:26.168 you're then sponsored by your editor your editor has to vouch for you 00:23:26.168 --> 00:23:29.248 yeah and then you get a pass it goes through all the security 00:23:29.248 --> 00:23:32.588 um hoops um before 00:23:32.588 --> 00:23:35.468 you're given it but once you have the pass then it's 00:23:35.468 --> 00:23:38.268 like a golden ticket really you can you can go anywhere you want 00:23:38.268 --> 00:23:41.968 pretty much um so yeah that's 00:23:41.968 --> 00:23:45.028 kind of where my my objection and conflict is 00:23:45.028 --> 00:23:48.128 now i totally get you can't have randoms walking 00:23:48.128 --> 00:23:52.128 around the palace of westminster but there is given 00:23:52.128 --> 00:23:56.188 the way the media world has changed there is a conversation to be had there 00:23:56.188 --> 00:24:03.748 right no there is and um actually the government um although their communications 00:24:03.748 --> 00:24:07.528 strategy is a little bit up in the air now because they've lost another communications 00:24:07.528 --> 00:24:12.108 director which was another thing that happened actually last Monday I forgot to mention that. 00:24:13.208 --> 00:24:17.448 That happened during lobby or just before lobby we got a statement from number 00:24:17.448 --> 00:24:20.368 10 to say that Tim Allen, the director of communications, had resigned that 00:24:20.368 --> 00:24:24.708 was another reason why we thought the whole thing's just collapsing here Was that number four? 00:24:25.768 --> 00:24:28.948 Sorry? Was that number four communications director that's gone? 00:24:28.948 --> 00:24:34.728 The fourth in 18 months, which, you know, isn't really the sign of a well-functioning 00:24:34.728 --> 00:24:36.388 number 10, I would suggest. 00:24:36.568 --> 00:24:42.148 But one of the things that he had looked to introduce was opening up the lobby 00:24:42.148 --> 00:24:44.348 system to content creators, 00:24:44.828 --> 00:24:50.808 people coming in to film video, to put it on TikTok, et cetera, 00:24:50.908 --> 00:24:52.108 et cetera. And I get that. 00:24:52.268 --> 00:24:58.248 I mean, as a very crusty, old-fashioned lobby hack, it kind of grates a little 00:24:58.248 --> 00:25:01.248 bit. you think, well, these aren't proper journalists, my goodness. 00:25:03.552 --> 00:25:06.272 Listen, I know that's the way the wind is blowing. You know, 00:25:06.472 --> 00:25:10.132 most people have got kids and they will get their news. 00:25:10.272 --> 00:25:13.872 They don't get news from a newspaper. They don't even get news from online news 00:25:13.872 --> 00:25:19.732 publications. They get it from social media, TikTok, et cetera, et cetera. So I get that. 00:25:20.692 --> 00:25:25.872 And I think it's probably inevitable that it is opened up to that regard. 00:25:25.932 --> 00:25:31.092 But I think at the same time, we have to be a little bit wary of it being dumbed 00:25:31.092 --> 00:25:33.232 down, dare I say, you know. 00:25:34.772 --> 00:25:38.052 But we see that on social media all the time. Now, all politicians have to sort 00:25:38.052 --> 00:25:44.292 of be as immediate as they possibly can, you know, snappy, quick answers to 00:25:44.292 --> 00:25:48.472 really complex problems, and unfortunately, I don't think the world actually works like that. 00:25:49.612 --> 00:25:52.872 Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy with your last point, actually, 00:25:53.012 --> 00:25:57.472 that, well, listen, I'm on a personal campaign to bring blogging back, actually. 00:25:57.712 --> 00:26:02.452 I think, like, online news, you know, having to post how that starts, do you know what I mean? 00:26:02.452 --> 00:26:05.512 I i'm on a bit of a campaign for that and actually 00:26:05.512 --> 00:26:08.332 guido forks the original westminster blog kind of still 00:26:08.332 --> 00:26:11.232 exists doesn't it and get some good stories so i do 00:26:11.232 --> 00:26:14.012 think there is an importance in actually dare i 00:26:14.012 --> 00:26:17.152 suggest it reading and writing stuff i 00:26:17.152 --> 00:26:19.952 know this is this is a shocking revelation because i 00:26:19.952 --> 00:26:24.672 think you know someone like you can tell us more in 500 words than someone could 00:26:24.672 --> 00:26:30.752 in a 60 90 second tiktok clip i do think that is a thing and i think well there's 00:26:30.752 --> 00:26:33.712 a whole other conversation about what the kind of social media world is doing 00:26:33.712 --> 00:26:37.352 to our brains and our news consumption and our information environment. 00:26:37.932 --> 00:26:41.452 But since somewhere like Westminster, where you do have to go, 00:26:41.492 --> 00:26:42.992 there obviously is a balance, right? 00:26:43.352 --> 00:26:46.392 You know, not everyone is going to pick up their copy of the Times in the morning. 00:26:46.392 --> 00:26:48.272 So there is a balance there. 00:26:49.132 --> 00:26:53.532 And I guess for you guys in the lobby, it's having to navigate those worlds 00:26:53.532 --> 00:26:54.792 as well is quite complicated. 00:26:56.486 --> 00:27:01.966 Yeah, I mean, so the HuffPost, we, I mean, I certainly think that, 00:27:02.106 --> 00:27:09.746 I like to think that we try to present politics for people that maybe aren't political geeks, 00:27:09.946 --> 00:27:14.146 you know, aren't across every coffin spit of policy detail. You're not politico? 00:27:14.866 --> 00:27:17.666 We're not politico, no. I mean, they do a great job, listen, 00:27:17.766 --> 00:27:20.846 don't get me wrong, they do a fantastic job for... But it's a specific job? 00:27:21.566 --> 00:27:25.646 Specific job for those who are, like, insiders, really, you know, 00:27:25.646 --> 00:27:33.006 those who are geeks in many ways, but also part of the Westminster ecosystem, 00:27:33.226 --> 00:27:34.526 that lobbying organisations, 00:27:34.846 --> 00:27:36.886 NGOs, civil servants. 00:27:37.786 --> 00:27:44.066 It's for people who live and breathe every cough and spit of what goes on at Westminster. 00:27:44.446 --> 00:27:49.606 HuffPost readers, that's not what they do. They're obviously interested in it. They're engaged. 00:27:49.846 --> 00:27:56.346 They want to know what's going on, but we try to present a balance really between 00:27:56.346 --> 00:28:00.826 a sort of punchy, not dumbed down, 00:28:01.026 --> 00:28:06.546 but certainly simplified approaches to stories. Accessible. 00:28:07.666 --> 00:28:10.506 Accessible, that's the word, accessible. But at the same time, 00:28:10.586 --> 00:28:15.146 for instance, of a weekend, we like to do a kind of longer read that gives people 00:28:15.146 --> 00:28:18.066 hopefully a little bit of an insight into what's going on behind the scenes. 00:28:19.086 --> 00:28:23.346 It's like a thousand words long which is quite lengthy compared to the stories 00:28:23.346 --> 00:28:26.766 that we normally write and that's just to give people at the weekend have a 00:28:26.766 --> 00:28:29.266 bit more time hopefully they can actually sit down, 00:28:29.812 --> 00:28:32.532 on their phone on their laptop whatever and just have a 00:28:32.532 --> 00:28:35.232 read it maybe the story behind the story so we try to have 00:28:35.232 --> 00:28:38.072 a balance between the accessibility of the 00:28:38.072 --> 00:28:44.772 news that we produce but also have a have a an outlet there for um more longer 00:28:44.772 --> 00:28:50.792 form um reportage really do people like diving into those long form things do 00:28:50.792 --> 00:28:56.672 you get feedback i mean they do i mean the the numbers are you know it's like everything, 00:28:56.892 --> 00:29:02.532 some weeks they hit the mark better than others it helps if you have some sort of. 00:29:04.412 --> 00:29:08.752 Revelation in it, you know, it's not just a reheat of what's gone on before 00:29:08.752 --> 00:29:10.592 with a few extra insider quotes, 00:29:10.752 --> 00:29:13.712 sometimes it's like that but other times, you know, you're always trying to 00:29:13.712 --> 00:29:18.132 unearth a little nugget that maybe hasn't come out earlier in the week, 00:29:18.212 --> 00:29:21.912 but it's so difficult because there's just so many publications 00:29:21.912 --> 00:29:24.772 covering politics and so many of them do these 00:29:24.772 --> 00:29:27.832 long reads now the times there's a really good one the sunday 00:29:27.832 --> 00:29:31.252 times and sunday always has a massive one political does 00:29:31.252 --> 00:29:35.572 what i mean just bloomberg there's so many now do it and you're all kind of 00:29:35.572 --> 00:29:40.392 fishing in the same pool but when you manage to get something um a little bit 00:29:40.392 --> 00:29:45.472 of detail that's revelatory that other people don't have then you tend to to 00:29:45.472 --> 00:29:48.952 see that reflected in the in the number of people reading it, 00:29:49.401 --> 00:29:53.201 Original reporting pays dividends. Who would have thought it, 00:29:53.261 --> 00:29:54.501 Kevin? Yeah, unbelievable. 00:29:55.381 --> 00:29:59.121 I just want to finish off, actually, by dealing with an insider Westminster 00:29:59.121 --> 00:30:01.501 story, but I think that he's quite serious. 00:30:02.141 --> 00:30:06.401 And that is the story that Gabriel Poggrund and Harry York, who are respectively 00:30:06.401 --> 00:30:10.621 the Whitehall editor and the deputy political editor, although Harry's joining 00:30:10.621 --> 00:30:13.281 the Royal Navy, isn't he, in the imminent future? 00:30:13.841 --> 00:30:21.161 He is, yeah. one of the most bizarre career U-turns, not U-turns, 00:30:21.161 --> 00:30:26.081 just a completely different, and fair play to him, you know, 00:30:26.121 --> 00:30:27.821 it sounds like a fascinating job, you know, 00:30:27.981 --> 00:30:30.521 he's, he's got a while with the head of the Navy. 00:30:31.721 --> 00:30:34.461 Is it the first seal order I think he's going to be working for, 00:30:34.801 --> 00:30:39.041 and also he has to join the Royal Navy in order to do that, So it's a real handbrake 00:30:39.041 --> 00:30:40.881 turn in terms of his career. 00:30:41.061 --> 00:30:46.221 But, yeah, no, a great journalist as well, Harry. He'll be a real loss to the 00:30:46.221 --> 00:30:48.181 Sunday Times and to the lobby. 00:30:48.241 --> 00:30:53.561 And there'll be a few politicians who'll be breathing a sigh of relief when Harry goes out. 00:30:53.621 --> 00:30:57.261 Well, that's a rather nice segue, actually, because he and his colleague, 00:30:57.421 --> 00:31:02.801 Gabriel Pogrand, it seems were targeted by an organisation. 00:31:02.801 --> 00:31:07.301 So there's Labour Together, which was run by now the former chief of staff, 00:31:07.301 --> 00:31:12.481 to Sir Keir Starmer, which was Morgan McSweeney, and then succeeded in running 00:31:12.481 --> 00:31:15.081 it by someone who's now a Cabinet Office minister. 00:31:16.939 --> 00:31:21.339 And it seems that they, who's called Josh Simons MP. Now, this organisation 00:31:21.339 --> 00:31:28.519 seems to have commissioned some work to research and essentially smear Harry 00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:30.719 York, but also in particular Gabriel Pogrand. 00:31:30.939 --> 00:31:34.359 And the idea was basically, as I understand it, correct me if you've heard different, 00:31:34.719 --> 00:31:39.479 was to make it look like they were Russian assets trying to destabilise the British government. 00:31:39.719 --> 00:31:45.499 And they did things like try and discredit Pogrand's work. They put it out there 00:31:45.499 --> 00:31:48.879 and made it like his Jewish faith was part of what was going on. 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:54.439 You know, put that into the document. Like, it's a very weird and quite sinister story, isn't it? 00:31:55.460 --> 00:31:58.100 It's a remarkable story, yes. 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:03.300 So Labour Together basically weren't happy about the journalism that mainly 00:32:03.300 --> 00:32:05.140 Gabriel but also Harry were doing. 00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:11.140 They were doing stories on Labour Together which didn't reflect well on the 00:32:11.140 --> 00:32:13.060 organisation. About their fine acting, right? 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:20.660 But yeah, stories about donations of, I think, around £700,000 that hadn't been declared properly. 00:32:21.320 --> 00:32:28.100 You know, given how integral Labour Together were, to getting Keir Stanmer elected, 00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:33.800 you know, it's clearly in the public interest that a light is shone on this 00:32:33.800 --> 00:32:36.040 organisation and how it operates. 00:32:36.040 --> 00:32:42.940 Now, they clearly were not happy at this journalism by Gabriel and Harry, 00:32:43.120 --> 00:32:50.380 and they commissioned an organisation called APCO to carry out a report, 00:32:50.380 --> 00:32:54.200 an investigation into how they were getting these stories. 00:32:54.200 --> 00:33:00.280 And they hit upon a theory, as you say, Charlotte, that the Russians were involved 00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:06.580 in some way Gabriel and Harry were working, which is ironic now that Harry's 00:33:06.580 --> 00:33:08.860 going to work for the Royal Navy. Navy, yeah. 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:15.780 There was the inference, or stronger than an inference, the accusation was that 00:33:15.780 --> 00:33:21.360 they were working for the Russians and, 00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:26.060 as you say, there was an attempt to smear a Westminster whispering campaign 00:33:26.060 --> 00:33:28.120 against Gabriel, who, you know, 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:33.180 I make no bones about it, I think Gabriel is the best political journalist in 00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:35.200 the country. The guy is a phenomenon. 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:40.800 The Sunday Times is remarkably lucky to have him. He is just fantastic. 00:33:41.280 --> 00:33:45.780 I mean, the stories he's broken are enormous. From the royal family, 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:50.420 he covered how the Maccabi Tel Aviv ban happened. there's nothing inside Westminster 00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:52.520 he doesn't this is one of the sort of, 00:33:53.048 --> 00:33:56.168 top journalist in Westminster, obviously alongside you, Kevin. 00:33:56.908 --> 00:34:01.448 Yeah, that's right. That's very kind of you. Not true, but anyway, nice of you to say so. 00:34:01.588 --> 00:34:05.188 But yeah, he's just superb. 00:34:05.448 --> 00:34:09.088 He's like, you know, absolutely top drawer political journalist. 00:34:09.168 --> 00:34:13.048 And I think that you saw that reflected when the story broke at the weekend 00:34:13.048 --> 00:34:17.688 about the smear campaign against him when you saw so many colleagues, 00:34:18.708 --> 00:34:24.888 taking to X to not just criticise the fact that journalists were being, 00:34:26.108 --> 00:34:27.588 briefed against and. 00:34:29.248 --> 00:34:34.788 Spied upon effectively in this way but the fact that it was Gabriel of all people 00:34:34.788 --> 00:34:39.668 this guy who's like unimpeachable character he just goes where the story is, 00:34:39.768 --> 00:34:42.388 where there are people in public life misbehaving, 00:34:43.048 --> 00:34:47.588 Gabriel tends to be on their tail so I think the fact that he of all people 00:34:47.588 --> 00:34:51.048 was being targeted in such a way I think was just deplorable, 00:34:52.308 --> 00:34:59.188 and And, yeah, it raises very serious questions indeed about how these organisations operate. 00:34:59.428 --> 00:35:03.148 And how close it was to Sir Keir Starmer. We have to make that point. 00:35:03.208 --> 00:35:07.088 This is an organisation that really helped get Sir Keir Starmer into number 10. 00:35:07.228 --> 00:35:09.888 And I just want to make another point before we wrap up. You know, 00:35:10.108 --> 00:35:12.788 this wasn't just, oh, a piece of paper that was floating around. 00:35:13.168 --> 00:35:16.508 The Sunday Times revealed that very senior people within the government, 00:35:19.728 --> 00:35:25.308 were taken up by this whispering campaign, believed these rumours and were all discussing it. 00:35:26.008 --> 00:35:30.948 And the idea is to stifle, ultimately to stifle the free press. 00:35:31.028 --> 00:35:35.848 I think if you go back to the sort of basic first principle, 00:35:36.468 --> 00:35:38.748 it's a very, very serious thing to have happened. 00:35:46.508 --> 00:35:47.388 I don't know. 00:35:49.852 --> 00:35:52.112 . Let's go. 00:36:22.952 --> 00:36:25.812 I'm sorry. yeah it did not go 00:36:25.812 --> 00:36:28.832 well and you know when you say people were 00:36:28.832 --> 00:36:32.132 colleagues running around them you're not talking about people at the sunday times this 00:36:32.132 --> 00:36:35.872 was political journalists who are frequently irritated that 00:36:35.872 --> 00:36:39.192 they gabriel pogran has got the stories they haven't were all 00:36:39.192 --> 00:36:45.232 rallying around him um i i just think it shows a really sinister side to political 00:36:45.232 --> 00:36:51.372 journalism as in an attempt to stifle and discredit what are clearly legitimate 00:36:51.372 --> 00:36:55.912 stories and important stories and i think it was really sinister to read what 00:36:55.912 --> 00:36:58.472 was going on when i when i started reading about it, 00:36:59.052 --> 00:37:02.892 kevin it's been such a pleasure to have you um i'll let you get back to your 00:37:02.892 --> 00:37:06.772 week away from because it's recess um where can people keep up with you and 00:37:06.772 --> 00:37:08.652 all the brilliant work we've been hearing how you do. 00:37:33.535 --> 00:37:37.855 Yeah make sure you tweet him about scottish football updates as well it goes down really well, 00:37:41.995 --> 00:37:46.835 yeah um i'm at charlotte henry across social media and if you're listening to 00:37:46.835 --> 00:37:52.515 this you probably know to head over to theedition.net and sign up for the newsletter 00:37:52.515 --> 00:37:54.075 there a couple of times a week. 00:37:54.575 --> 00:38:00.455 You can also buy my latest book, Streaming Wars, wherever you get your books and I hope you do that. 00:38:00.875 --> 00:38:04.675 Kevin, once again, thank you so much for joining me and I'll see you all next week.