WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.880 Music. 00:00:08.726 --> 00:00:13.926 Hello, Happy New Year. Welcome back to the edition podcast for the first time in 2025. 00:00:14.586 --> 00:00:22.226 It promises to be a calm, collected New Year in the media culture space, I'm sure. 00:00:24.826 --> 00:00:30.466 I'm pleased to have for this episode, Chris Stoker-Walker, the author, 00:00:31.166 --> 00:00:38.106 journalist, university lecturer, and the man who knows far too much about Twitter 00:00:38.106 --> 00:00:39.466 and Elon Musk. How are you? 00:00:40.086 --> 00:00:45.146 I was all right until the second day back and then everything went into chaos. 00:00:45.486 --> 00:00:47.446 We will discuss the chaos, yes. 00:00:48.086 --> 00:00:52.506 I assume listeners could pick up the dripping sarcasm as I talked about a nice 00:00:52.506 --> 00:00:57.446 calm year ahead because if the first few days of the year are anything to go 00:00:57.446 --> 00:00:59.146 by, that's not where we are. 00:01:00.246 --> 00:01:03.966 We were trying to work out where the hell to start, But I think we should start 00:01:03.966 --> 00:01:06.986 with Elon Musk at Mar-a-Lago. 00:01:07.866 --> 00:01:11.186 Now, I obviously don't, this is not a politics podcast particularly, 00:01:11.366 --> 00:01:14.166 so we're not going to debate the politics of it. 00:01:14.306 --> 00:01:19.546 But what is clear is that Elon Musk wants to be involved in politics. 00:01:19.746 --> 00:01:24.366 Now, in your research, again, reporting for books you've written and articles 00:01:24.366 --> 00:01:28.426 you've written, are you surprised by what's happened over the recent months 00:01:28.426 --> 00:01:31.666 that this, you know, he's got into this political sphere? 00:01:34.166 --> 00:01:37.026 Um that's a good question i don't know actually i think 00:01:37.026 --> 00:01:39.886 i'm not surprised that he shares a political 00:01:39.886 --> 00:01:45.566 point of view with donald trump i'm not surprised that elon musk has a similar 00:01:45.566 --> 00:01:50.246 view on business to to donald trump um i think that they do come from slightly 00:01:50.246 --> 00:01:54.486 different kind of political backgrounds i think musk is much more libertarian 00:01:54.486 --> 00:01:59.066 um i was going to challenge your point actually about saying, do they agree? 00:01:59.186 --> 00:02:02.466 I'm not sure how much they do agree ultimately. 00:02:02.826 --> 00:02:08.586 To the extent that Donald Trump believes anything, I'm not sure how much they 00:02:08.586 --> 00:02:11.066 agree. And I think that could be quite an interesting development. 00:02:11.366 --> 00:02:14.146 But anyway, so you're not surprised about that. 00:02:14.546 --> 00:02:17.086 Yeah. And I'm not surprised that they... 00:02:18.205 --> 00:02:21.085 Recognize a shared goal of if we buddy 00:02:21.085 --> 00:02:24.165 up i'll improve you and you will improve me 00:02:24.165 --> 00:02:27.245 and therefore i will improve in the long run um 00:02:27.245 --> 00:02:32.205 so i think that it's a very transactional relationship i guess i am surprised 00:02:32.205 --> 00:02:37.885 by the extent to which they've got very close i mean they're literally sharing 00:02:37.885 --> 00:02:44.805 tables at mar-a-lago it's you know elon musk is donald trump's right hand man it feels 00:02:45.045 --> 00:02:48.005 like that you know the reports are that he's he's been involved in 00:02:48.005 --> 00:02:50.905 kind of the recruitment process to the government and 00:02:50.905 --> 00:02:56.105 all sorts he's been on calls with vladimir zelensky that donald trump has had 00:02:56.105 --> 00:03:01.625 at the same time as being a fan of vladimir putin we understand and so yeah 00:03:01.625 --> 00:03:07.085 there are these huge amounts of as we're used to with donald trump the the sort 00:03:07.085 --> 00:03:09.225 of blurring and some might let's say, 00:03:09.305 --> 00:03:15.625 the erasure of kind of standard political matters and the way that things are 00:03:15.625 --> 00:03:17.665 generally done in this sort of space, 00:03:17.665 --> 00:03:22.005 which is amplified even more by the fact that Elon Musk isn't a traditional 00:03:22.005 --> 00:03:25.185 business person either. He doesn't like to follow societal rules. 00:03:25.385 --> 00:03:34.665 So we're kind of seeing, I guess, a really interesting and fascinating confluence 00:03:34.665 --> 00:03:36.745 of these two people that are big egos, 00:03:37.105 --> 00:03:42.085 are big beasts, and have their own very idiosyncratic way of doing things. 00:03:42.765 --> 00:03:46.365 Surely that's going to lead to a clash at some point. Yeah, I mean, 00:03:46.425 --> 00:03:51.545 arguably it already is a little bit in that Elon Musk is causing Donald Trump 00:03:51.545 --> 00:03:53.785 issues for various reasons that we will talk about. 00:03:53.965 --> 00:03:58.485 But when you have these two titanic egos in one place, both of them think they 00:03:58.485 --> 00:04:00.325 should be the focus of attention in a room. 00:04:00.425 --> 00:04:03.725 And so i find it difficult to understand how 00:04:03.725 --> 00:04:06.845 they will coexist particularly under the high 00:04:06.845 --> 00:04:10.305 pressure realities of a presidency and elon 00:04:10.305 --> 00:04:13.025 musk's role as kind of trying to bring efficiency into the 00:04:13.025 --> 00:04:15.725 u.s government to me you know 00:04:15.725 --> 00:04:18.405 one of them will be starved of oxygen or one of them will get 00:04:18.405 --> 00:04:22.005 disappointed i suppose by their comparative standing 00:04:22.005 --> 00:04:25.025 i think they'll probably measure it based on headline inches more than anything else 00:04:25.025 --> 00:04:27.985 i was going to make a terrible joke 00:04:27.985 --> 00:04:31.325 about yeah let's not but we'll move on um it 00:04:31.325 --> 00:04:34.125 does feel like that and it does feel like you know 00:04:34.125 --> 00:04:37.745 you and i actually you came on this show when all throughout 00:04:37.745 --> 00:04:43.465 the you know the discussions about musk by twitter i dragged you on here multiple 00:04:43.465 --> 00:04:50.105 times and one of the things i mean even you to some extent couldn't answer and 00:04:50.105 --> 00:04:53.765 i certainly couldn't was why on earth is he bothered about this platform that 00:04:53.765 --> 00:04:56.725 doesn't make any money who cares why does he want it. 00:04:57.536 --> 00:05:00.956 Are we now starting to see the answer to that question? Yeah, 00:05:01.156 --> 00:05:08.076 I mean, I'm always reticent to kind of give the example of he's playing 4D chess 00:05:08.076 --> 00:05:12.036 with anybody, because actually I think a lot of the time this is just happenstance. 00:05:12.176 --> 00:05:16.876 But certainly Elon Musk bankrolling Donald Trump's political campaign, 00:05:17.276 --> 00:05:23.796 going on the stump for him around the political horn, and basically ingratiating 00:05:23.796 --> 00:05:26.836 himself and giving Trump a big platform back on social media, 00:05:26.836 --> 00:05:28.376 I think has benefited him, 00:05:28.576 --> 00:05:33.096 because Trump sees that as a good thing for more skin-run. 00:05:33.576 --> 00:05:38.596 Yeah, but did he take control of Twitter because it also gave him political 00:05:38.596 --> 00:05:40.616 influence? That's really what I'm getting at. 00:05:40.916 --> 00:05:44.116 Yeah, well, he described it as the de facto public town square when he bought 00:05:44.116 --> 00:05:46.536 it, right? So I think that that was the idea. 00:05:46.676 --> 00:05:50.356 He long recognised the fact that this was a place where decision-makers. 00:05:51.516 --> 00:05:56.636 Tastemakers, politicians and journalists congregated and kind of set what was 00:05:56.636 --> 00:05:58.896 going to be the tone of conversation on any given day. 00:05:59.016 --> 00:06:01.196 And so he saw the value in that. 00:06:01.956 --> 00:06:07.516 I think that he has scuppered some of the value of that, both literally and 00:06:07.516 --> 00:06:12.096 metaphorically, in the sense of X is now worth a fraction of what he paid for it. 00:06:12.316 --> 00:06:16.796 And also its utility is that public square has disappeared as people have just 00:06:16.796 --> 00:06:18.376 gone sick of it, basically. 00:06:18.476 --> 00:06:22.116 And the kind of unpleasantness that occurs around it. 00:06:22.136 --> 00:06:29.356 I barely use it now. and I was totally hooked into it for a long, 00:06:29.436 --> 00:06:33.816 long time and I barely use it now. Yeah, and you're not alone. 00:06:34.676 --> 00:06:38.736 There have been lots of beneficiaries of this. Meta is adding a million users 00:06:38.736 --> 00:06:41.616 a day to Threads because of this. Oh, we're coming to them, Chris, 00:06:41.696 --> 00:06:42.796 don't you worry. We'll get to that in a second. 00:06:44.236 --> 00:06:47.276 And others are as well. Blue Sky has seen a big benefit from it. 00:06:47.376 --> 00:06:50.976 So, yeah, there are people abandoning X while also coming to other platforms, 00:06:50.976 --> 00:06:56.556 but still there is that strong base on X of people who share the worldview of 00:06:56.556 --> 00:06:57.796 Elon Musk and of Donald Trump. 00:06:58.797 --> 00:07:02.857 Yeah, I do want to point out, I really don't think they have that much. 00:07:03.177 --> 00:07:07.477 There's a really fascinating explorationist in The Economist of how, 00:07:07.637 --> 00:07:13.837 you know, the potential clashes between those sort of core MAGA people and the 00:07:13.837 --> 00:07:17.437 tech libertarians that are being brought in and how there could be clashes there. 00:07:17.517 --> 00:07:22.177 Again, that's not totally the purview of this show, but it is going to be interesting to watch. 00:07:22.957 --> 00:07:26.357 But the other reason I wanted to bring you on is we're also seeing Elon Musk 00:07:26.357 --> 00:07:30.057 try and use his platform to get involved in British politics. 00:07:30.537 --> 00:07:34.537 Yeah, he did this last year, didn't he? He did this with the riots over the 00:07:34.537 --> 00:07:41.777 summer in 2024 and needled a little bit at Keir Starmer and his response. 00:07:42.057 --> 00:07:44.977 Yes, he liked to deploy the two-tier Keir thing, didn't he? 00:07:45.197 --> 00:07:52.017 Yeah, and kind of parroted the talking points of various news outlets and other 00:07:52.017 --> 00:07:53.497 personalities on social media. 00:07:53.517 --> 00:07:57.297 I don't think ever really understanding what was going on in the UK in the same 00:07:57.297 --> 00:08:00.837 way that, you know, it's very difficult for anybody not based within a country 00:08:00.837 --> 00:08:03.637 to kind of get to the nuances of this stuff. 00:08:03.857 --> 00:08:07.677 But still cut through because he has 200 million followers on social media. 00:08:07.677 --> 00:08:09.377 He is the world's richest man. 00:08:09.497 --> 00:08:13.277 And frankly, when he says something, we do pay attention. Should we? 00:08:15.497 --> 00:08:21.777 I think we shouldn't pay as much attention to the tiny neuroses that he says. 00:08:21.897 --> 00:08:25.777 So, for instance, to bring us up to date, and I know we're kind of jumping around 00:08:25.777 --> 00:08:29.197 a little bit here, But in the weekend before we recorded this, 00:08:29.397 --> 00:08:34.617 in early January, the BBC put out a push notification to its users of its BBC 00:08:34.617 --> 00:08:40.197 News app because Elon Musk had tweeted that he thought Keir Starmer should not 00:08:40.197 --> 00:08:42.057 be governing because he thought he wasn't fit for governing. 00:08:42.537 --> 00:08:48.077 To me, if we're pushing out notifications on a news app of what someone might 00:08:48.077 --> 00:08:51.277 plausibly have posted on the toilet, I think we probably shouldn't be paying 00:08:51.277 --> 00:08:53.477 as much attention to him as we do there. 00:08:54.117 --> 00:08:57.597 Even if they're the world richest man? Even if they're the world's richest man, 00:08:57.697 --> 00:09:01.537 because ultimately, often the world's richest men say stupid things, even if they are rich. 00:09:01.697 --> 00:09:05.097 They got rich for a reason, they're very smart, but sometimes even the smartest 00:09:05.097 --> 00:09:06.377 people say stupid things. 00:09:06.517 --> 00:09:10.837 And so, particularly with Elon Musk, who I think kind of sees his role as a 00:09:10.837 --> 00:09:15.997 bit of a provocateur, is it that surprising that he says surprising things? Not so much. 00:09:16.631 --> 00:09:20.531 And I'm inclined to agree with you that, you know, it's not, 00:09:20.791 --> 00:09:23.591 we don't need to, people did this with Donald Trump, didn't they? 00:09:23.611 --> 00:09:29.751 The media did this with Donald Trump, where they, every one of his sort of breathless 00:09:29.751 --> 00:09:33.071 tweets and thoughts was deemed to be headline news. 00:09:33.251 --> 00:09:37.251 And it sort of created a cycle of, upon a cycle, upon a cycle. 00:09:37.391 --> 00:09:40.891 And I think the same is happening with Elon Musk. yeah and 00:09:40.891 --> 00:09:43.711 i think you know to some 00:09:43.711 --> 00:09:46.851 extent i have to say you know i feel 00:09:46.851 --> 00:09:49.511 that right like i must when elon musk has 00:09:49.511 --> 00:09:53.611 something stupid or does something stupid to write about places yeah 00:09:53.611 --> 00:09:56.751 it'll be this all of our fault and i think you know there is 00:09:56.751 --> 00:09:59.431 this element of well you know i'm just a cog in the 00:09:59.431 --> 00:10:02.271 machine but actually yeah we are replicating some of the issues that 00:10:02.271 --> 00:10:05.191 we had with trump and we are amplifying and kind 00:10:05.191 --> 00:10:11.871 of making bigger i suppose the character with you know either beneficial ramifications 00:10:11.871 --> 00:10:16.011 or negative ramifications depending on your political point of view and whether 00:10:16.011 --> 00:10:19.151 you think donald trump has been a net positive or a net negative to society 00:10:19.151 --> 00:10:24.951 same thing i think with elon musk so let's just dive into his interventions in the uk. 00:10:26.471 --> 00:10:29.611 Because it was weird, right? 00:10:29.931 --> 00:10:40.331 He picked up on reform, which is for non-UK listeners, a party with five MPs led by Nigel Farage. 00:10:40.471 --> 00:10:42.511 It was a relatively new party. 00:10:42.911 --> 00:10:47.151 It's no mean achievement in the British system to get five MPs over the line. 00:10:47.151 --> 00:10:52.291 They got a decent share of the vote and in five constituencies did get people over the line to win. 00:10:53.071 --> 00:10:57.691 They'll probably, you know, make some progress in the upcoming local elections in May. 00:10:57.971 --> 00:11:02.091 You know, they are a relevant political force and they're led by Nigel Farage, 00:11:02.211 --> 00:11:05.691 who obviously was playing a huge role in leading Britain to Brexit and is a 00:11:05.691 --> 00:11:11.291 similarly meaningful political force, whether we like it or not. 00:11:13.219 --> 00:11:16.599 But they're also, as I say, they only have five MPs. 00:11:16.699 --> 00:11:22.839 They are a very small party by any means. 00:11:22.959 --> 00:11:25.519 They've obviously, they've scared the Conservative Party from the right. 00:11:25.699 --> 00:11:28.759 But, you know, you need to keep in context their influence. 00:11:28.959 --> 00:11:33.579 But Elon Musk latched on to them. He latched on to some really difficult and 00:11:33.579 --> 00:11:41.459 complex stories about rape and sexual abuse predominantly by members of the 00:11:41.459 --> 00:11:45.739 Pakistani Muslim community in the north of England against predominantly white girls. 00:11:45.819 --> 00:11:52.299 A really complex, difficult story that deserves both investigation and nuance. 00:11:52.939 --> 00:11:56.839 And he's just gone blazing through in the way he does. 00:11:57.139 --> 00:12:03.519 Yeah, and I think he's gone blazing through while not necessarily deeply engaging 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:04.819 with some of the issues around that. 00:12:04.819 --> 00:12:14.199 And there are really long-standing, really thorny kind of contextual elements to all of this stuff. 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:19.719 And yet, you know, one thing that we know about Elon Musk, when you read his 00:12:19.719 --> 00:12:24.819 autobiographies and his, sorry, his biographies by various of his biographers. 00:12:25.659 --> 00:12:29.739 When you read the reporting around his takeover of Twitter and so on, 00:12:29.859 --> 00:12:32.559 is that he is someone who makes a decision very, very quickly. 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:37.479 He has very strident views on that and if he says in one direction we will go 00:12:37.479 --> 00:12:41.899 you go in that direction now that doesn't really work when you're talking about 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:45.259 race relations you're talking about issues of child sexual abuse and you're 00:12:45.259 --> 00:12:48.279 talking about grooming and so on and so forth and yet. 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:53.879 He's kind of waded in because I think he's used to that while also having this 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:58.039 kind of odd flip flop relationship with reform because as you mentioned they're 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:02.219 a very small party but there has been in the UK for the last maybe six or eight weeks, 00:13:02.239 --> 00:13:08.099 this kind of bubbling under conversation of will Elon Musk bankroll reform? 00:13:08.119 --> 00:13:11.879 Will that change the politics in the UK in the same way that, 00:13:12.472 --> 00:13:16.652 You know, Musk probably says he helped sway the presidential election. 00:13:16.812 --> 00:13:22.092 Whether or not he actually had that much of an impact based on what we know, not entirely certain. 00:13:22.312 --> 00:13:26.352 But there is this kind of idea that he's the joker that's about to be played 00:13:26.352 --> 00:13:32.492 in the UK political scene if he chooses to bankroll reform, which we assumed 00:13:32.492 --> 00:13:35.492 would be bankrolling Nigel Farage. 00:13:35.492 --> 00:13:38.092 He was essentially the biggest ego in reform. 00:13:38.412 --> 00:13:43.532 And yet, in the last week or so, he's completely turned against Farage, 00:13:43.632 --> 00:13:48.872 which is surprising both because of the way in which Farage is tied up intrinsically 00:13:48.872 --> 00:13:50.712 with reform, but also surprisingly... 00:13:51.372 --> 00:13:53.452 And with Trump. Yeah, exactly. And this is the thing, with Trump. 00:13:53.632 --> 00:13:57.912 He is essentially, you know, he spends seemingly as much time in the United 00:13:57.912 --> 00:14:01.112 States as he does in the UK, as a member of parliament in the UK, 00:14:01.232 --> 00:14:02.572 meant to be serving his constituents. 00:14:02.572 --> 00:14:07.152 As far as I can tell, he spends most of his time either in Mar-a-Lago or at 00:14:07.152 --> 00:14:08.112 Trump campaign rallies. 00:14:08.332 --> 00:14:13.632 So there is this kind of symbiotic relationship, a weird kind of triangle between 00:14:13.632 --> 00:14:17.752 Donald Trump, Elon Musk and Nigel Farage that we thought was unbreakable. 00:14:18.032 --> 00:14:22.252 And yet Musk seems to have tried to break one branch of that triangle. 00:14:23.712 --> 00:14:28.992 Yes, absolutely. And this is why I wanted this on the show, because he's using 00:14:28.992 --> 00:14:34.672 his status as an owner of a major media platform. 00:14:34.692 --> 00:14:37.512 Let's stop calling Twitter a tech platform, which is a media platform. 00:14:39.292 --> 00:14:40.912 And he's using that. 00:14:42.594 --> 00:14:48.334 In the, you know, almost like Rupert Murdoch used to with his giant newspapers 00:14:48.334 --> 00:14:51.394 that sort of people had to kiss the ring for him as well. 00:14:52.434 --> 00:14:58.754 And I think that that is a really apt comparison because Musk sees himself as a power broker. 00:14:59.314 --> 00:15:06.014 And he is in many ways. He has, he's been very good at recognizing areas of 00:15:06.014 --> 00:15:09.734 weakness that he can exploit to make himself invaluable to others. 00:15:10.214 --> 00:15:14.774 So with Donald Trump, you know, he set up a political action committee, 00:15:15.134 --> 00:15:17.954 donated a huge amount of money to help Trump, 00:15:18.514 --> 00:15:21.534 kind of tied himself to Trump when it looked likely that Trump was going to 00:15:21.534 --> 00:15:25.254 win, so that he was seen as being helpful towards that campaign. 00:15:25.474 --> 00:15:30.754 Same thing with things like space exploration. NASA's had a kind of long-standing 00:15:30.754 --> 00:15:35.414 decline as government funding has decreased. He recognised an opportunity and 00:15:35.414 --> 00:15:37.134 said, I can get in there with SpaceX. 00:15:37.734 --> 00:15:41.074 Private space companies are going to be really important for 00:15:41.074 --> 00:15:43.714 the future of exploration and has kind of got a load of 00:15:43.714 --> 00:15:46.594 government contracts similarly with tesla you know 00:15:46.594 --> 00:15:49.914 if he's recognized the ev revolution is coming he 00:15:49.914 --> 00:15:53.614 said if i can kind of corner off that space i become uh 00:15:53.614 --> 00:15:56.494 irreplaceable in many ways and and can 00:15:56.494 --> 00:16:01.894 then hold power over people and lots of money yeah as well as earning lots of 00:16:01.894 --> 00:16:06.514 money years you know 400 billion or something i think i'm pleased i said it 00:16:06.514 --> 00:16:10.954 because i do think it is an apt comparison murdoch and trump sorry murdoch and 00:16:10.954 --> 00:16:14.634 uh and musk there is one big difference. 00:16:15.494 --> 00:16:22.714 Rupert murdoch genuinely loves news and loves media it's just a hobby for elon 00:16:22.714 --> 00:16:27.454 musk yeah i think i think he thinks he is kind of. 00:16:28.506 --> 00:16:31.266 Puppet master and I think it's that it's fun for him 00:16:31.266 --> 00:16:34.266 to just kind of play about and sometimes he 00:16:34.266 --> 00:16:37.406 throws things up in the air and sees where they land if it 00:16:37.406 --> 00:16:40.866 causes chaos what does it bother him he's still 00:16:40.866 --> 00:16:43.586 powerful he's still popular he's still in 00:16:43.586 --> 00:16:46.766 charge doesn't matter if it causes consequences as 00:16:46.766 --> 00:16:49.486 we're starting to see in the UK case in any 00:16:49.486 --> 00:16:53.046 number of these European cases where he's been causing chaos 00:16:53.046 --> 00:16:56.166 there similarly picking fights with Australia and Brazil 00:16:56.166 --> 00:16:59.266 over issues that they've had with X there you know 00:16:59.266 --> 00:17:02.326 he doesn't mind poking you in the eye essentially because 00:17:02.326 --> 00:17:05.906 he sees it as important yeah I mean I think let's 00:17:05.906 --> 00:17:08.726 move to Mark Zuckerberg because as we were 00:17:08.726 --> 00:17:11.646 sort of getting ready for this show we had another announcement from 00:17:11.646 --> 00:17:14.926 Mark Zuckerberg on the Tuesday which he 00:17:14.926 --> 00:17:17.986 said I'm reading the thread on threads but he's. 00:17:17.986 --> 00:17:21.406 Posted similar things on his other platforms on Meta's 00:17:21.406 --> 00:17:24.566 other platforms he said it's time to get back to our roots around free expression 00:17:24.566 --> 00:17:27.706 and giving people voice on our platforms then 00:17:27.706 --> 00:17:30.466 and that's what we're going to do the one thing lots of people have picked 00:17:30.466 --> 00:17:33.346 up and is replace fact checkers with community notes that's 00:17:33.346 --> 00:17:36.206 going to start in the us um there's some 00:17:36.206 --> 00:17:39.406 other things that jumped out to me though simplify our 00:17:39.406 --> 00:17:42.486 content policies and remove restrictions on topic like immigration 00:17:42.486 --> 00:17:46.726 and gender that are out of touch with mainstream discourse um 00:17:46.726 --> 00:17:50.286 can you hear the dog whistles by the way yeah um bring 00:17:50.286 --> 00:17:53.286 back civic content by which he means politics i assume 00:17:53.286 --> 00:17:56.166 yeah uh this is 00:17:56.166 --> 00:17:59.086 a good one you'll like this chris move our trust and safety and content 00:17:59.086 --> 00:18:01.986 moderation teams out of california and our u.s 00:18:01.986 --> 00:18:05.606 content review to texas this is the best 00:18:05.606 --> 00:18:08.586 dog whistle when you're talking about dog whistles this is the most dog 00:18:08.586 --> 00:18:11.866 whistly dog whistle i've ever heard this idea also he says 00:18:11.866 --> 00:18:14.506 to make it less biased so there is this implication that if 00:18:14.506 --> 00:18:18.946 you're in california you are biased if you're in texas then you are unimpeachably 00:18:18.946 --> 00:18:23.906 unbiased in some way um yeah there's all sorts of things uh he says he'll work 00:18:23.906 --> 00:18:27.146 with president trump to push back against foreign governments going after american 00:18:27.146 --> 00:18:34.106 companies to send some more look we saw a bit of a hunt from a hint from zuckerberg uh when that, 00:18:34.806 --> 00:18:39.546 assassination attempt of donald trump took place zuckerberg sort of tweeted 00:18:39.546 --> 00:18:44.766 how cool he looked standing up blood ridden with his fist in the air i didn't 00:18:44.766 --> 00:18:46.066 tweet it sorry he posted online. 00:18:47.406 --> 00:18:53.486 Um anyway the point he's obviously been sort of moving in that direction. 00:18:56.026 --> 00:18:59.366 And now we've got this were you surprised when you saw this shift, 00:19:01.733 --> 00:19:09.393 I was surprised by the scale of it. I mean, look, all business people move with the political weather. 00:19:10.473 --> 00:19:14.313 Because they don't have much choice, right? Yeah, right. And we've seen, 00:19:14.453 --> 00:19:19.733 you know, uncharitably, we've seen many, many people line up effectively to 00:19:19.733 --> 00:19:22.313 kiss the ring of Donald Trump over the last couple of weeks. 00:19:22.933 --> 00:19:27.453 Pretty much every tech executive has donated to his inauguration. 00:19:27.453 --> 00:19:30.713 Yeah i was rather taken out when i saw a million dollars had 00:19:30.713 --> 00:19:33.793 gone from tim cook yeah of 00:19:33.793 --> 00:19:37.133 all people of all the text leaders yeah and 00:19:37.133 --> 00:19:40.133 mark zuckerberg has donated a million as well i think what is different 00:19:40.133 --> 00:19:43.513 about this is that we were 00:19:43.513 --> 00:19:47.033 talking about power with elon musk few people 00:19:47.033 --> 00:19:50.273 and we're talking about shaping the weather with donald trump few 00:19:50.273 --> 00:19:53.213 people can affect society with an 00:19:53.213 --> 00:19:56.813 individual action in the way that mark zuckerberg can and 00:19:56.813 --> 00:19:59.833 so do you think that's still true yeah three 00:19:59.833 --> 00:20:03.033 billion people use meta apps every single day 00:20:03.033 --> 00:20:06.293 3.3 billion now that is 00:20:06.293 --> 00:20:09.113 an outsized impact on our 00:20:09.113 --> 00:20:12.493 society i don't know of many other people in the world whose actions 00:20:12.493 --> 00:20:15.253 can affect three billion people in a sweep and i 00:20:15.253 --> 00:20:18.413 think that is what we're seeing here and what is quite so concerning 00:20:18.413 --> 00:20:21.353 and surprising about it is we'd always expected that 00:20:21.353 --> 00:20:24.693 i think there will be some softening of how meta 00:20:24.693 --> 00:20:27.593 approaches this stuff to accommodate the 00:20:27.593 --> 00:20:30.293 fact that donald trump is going to be in the white house for 00:20:30.293 --> 00:20:34.153 the next four years like it'll lump it but i 00:20:34.153 --> 00:20:36.993 hadn't quite expected him to kind of burn the whole. 00:20:36.993 --> 00:20:40.093 Thing down because effectively to me this idea 00:20:40.093 --> 00:20:42.973 of getting rid of your content moderation which has never 00:20:42.973 --> 00:20:46.133 been perfect and frankly until tech companies fund it 00:20:46.133 --> 00:20:49.173 properly never would be perfect it's fundamentally very 00:20:49.173 --> 00:20:54.153 very flawed and it's difficult anyway yeah meta says in their in their blog 00:20:54.153 --> 00:20:58.093 posts announcing these changes that actually they think if they went back and 00:20:58.093 --> 00:21:02.073 looked again around about 10 to 20 percent of all the moderation decisions they 00:21:02.073 --> 00:21:06.113 make they would probably change their mind on because of you know faults or 00:21:06.113 --> 00:21:09.073 flaws that they've had um but i think that. 00:21:10.115 --> 00:21:14.835 I hadn't expected him to just completely bin off the idea of content moderation, 00:21:15.275 --> 00:21:20.275 which is essentially what he's doing, and replace it more than that with effectively more brutal. 00:21:20.735 --> 00:21:22.975 Because that is what... Community notes are, yeah. 00:21:23.515 --> 00:21:29.935 And of course, this comes just days after Sir Nick Clegg left. 00:21:30.235 --> 00:21:34.175 Yeah, and replaced by Joel Kaplan, who was, of course, a very, 00:21:34.255 --> 00:21:36.695 very big Republican voice. Yep. 00:21:37.815 --> 00:21:43.055 We can see what's going here. And to me, this is what is disingenuous, 00:21:43.275 --> 00:21:45.475 I think, about Mark Zuckerberg's announcement. 00:21:45.775 --> 00:21:48.935 You know, I've seen Ryan Mack, who's a great New York Times reporter, 00:21:49.415 --> 00:21:52.655 posted something on Blue Sky, which says, well, why did Mark Zuckerberg wait 00:21:52.655 --> 00:21:54.795 until the 7th of January to do this? Why didn't he wait? 00:21:55.015 --> 00:21:58.715 Why didn't he do it a day earlier and just make it even more obvious on the 00:21:58.715 --> 00:22:00.255 anniversary of January the 6th? 00:22:00.415 --> 00:22:05.875 But to me, this is, Zuckerberg is saying here something that is correct, 00:22:05.975 --> 00:22:07.975 which is that content moderation is broken. 00:22:08.835 --> 00:22:11.835 He says something that i think is incorrect which is we can't fix 00:22:11.835 --> 00:22:14.715 it i think that it is a fixable solution you just need to actually fund 00:22:14.715 --> 00:22:17.995 it and make sure and of all the things that fix it community knows 00:22:17.995 --> 00:22:20.995 ain't it yeah and offering an alternative by saying 00:22:20.995 --> 00:22:24.375 well this doesn't work so we're going to do this thing which coincidentally 00:22:24.375 --> 00:22:27.415 shifts the overton window right in the direction where 00:22:27.415 --> 00:22:30.435 your donald trump is going and will appease him 00:22:30.435 --> 00:22:33.515 because it kind of absolves us of any tricky decisions that 00:22:33.515 --> 00:22:36.595 we have to make about what he says um and you 00:22:36.595 --> 00:22:39.335 know i think it would be more honest if you 00:22:39.335 --> 00:22:42.315 just come out and said look donald trump 00:22:42.315 --> 00:22:45.795 is donald trump you have to accede 00:22:45.795 --> 00:22:49.895 to him he acts a little bit like a mafiosi boss in that like if you don't follow 00:22:49.895 --> 00:22:54.215 what he does he will get very angry yeah and he did threaten mark zuckerberg 00:22:54.215 --> 00:22:58.835 didn't he yeah he has and and to say you know that's the operation which we 00:22:58.835 --> 00:23:03.875 live now so we have to do this instead he's trying to kind of couch this as. 00:23:05.215 --> 00:23:10.555 We're we're going back to our kind of founding principles and this is all sunlight 00:23:10.555 --> 00:23:12.035 and happiness and this is great 00:23:12.035 --> 00:23:17.255 when in fact i think this will you know change things enormously to me. 00:23:18.015 --> 00:23:22.275 This is kind of mark zuckerberg rowing in behind elon musk and i think that 00:23:22.275 --> 00:23:26.975 there is an element of Musk shadowing over him as to why he's doing this. 00:23:27.095 --> 00:23:29.755 He's seen Elon Musk become Donald Trump's best buddy. 00:23:30.235 --> 00:23:34.015 He says, well, that concerns me because we're both in the social media space. 00:23:34.135 --> 00:23:35.955 We're both in the AI space. 00:23:36.215 --> 00:23:38.235 Donald Trump is the one who holds a grudge. 00:23:38.675 --> 00:23:41.735 Elon Musk, God help him, is someone that holds a grudge as well. 00:23:42.355 --> 00:23:45.895 These two people could cause me real trouble in the next four years, 00:23:46.015 --> 00:23:48.075 so I need to cozy up to them and be friendly. 00:23:48.515 --> 00:23:51.515 And I know that he can't say that, but, 00:23:52.209 --> 00:24:00.329 To kind of undo one direction of travel over the last 20 years of trying to 00:24:00.329 --> 00:24:02.149 give a go at content moderation. 00:24:02.149 --> 00:24:05.569 To say well you know um 00:24:05.569 --> 00:24:09.729 MAGA Trump 2025 forever 00:24:09.729 --> 00:24:13.869 has as much of a correct viewpoint 00:24:13.869 --> 00:24:17.209 on climate change on 00:24:17.209 --> 00:24:20.729 abortion rights on LGBTQ rights on 00:24:20.729 --> 00:24:27.989 immigration as people who actually look at the data and provide impartial fact-checking 00:24:27.989 --> 00:24:34.289 services is a real worry to me i think it kind of it's a complete i think it's 00:24:34.289 --> 00:24:37.909 an extinction level event for objective truth to be honest on social media. 00:24:39.809 --> 00:24:43.549 Oh and i wanted to start the year positively yeah 00:24:43.549 --> 00:24:46.729 well so did i but then then mark zuckerberg 00:24:46.729 --> 00:24:50.709 came up with a video let's just 00:24:50.709 --> 00:24:53.989 dig in a little bit more on the 00:24:53.989 --> 00:24:56.629 idea of an extinction level because what i was about to ask you 00:24:56.629 --> 00:25:01.609 before you deeply depressed me was where 00:25:01.609 --> 00:25:06.909 does this look you and i both written a lot about disinformation that's an area 00:25:06.909 --> 00:25:14.149 that interests both of us but also where and that i think this is going to do 00:25:14.149 --> 00:25:20.689 terrible things for the spread of disinformation The problem is that what's happened is, 00:25:21.229 --> 00:25:25.869 and you know this even better than I do, is how these platforms have been used 00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:27.349 to tell, quote unquote, the truth. 00:25:27.789 --> 00:25:32.949 People have pushed back against the, quote unquote, mainstream media using these platforms. 00:25:32.949 --> 00:25:36.449 And i think today's and the recent events are 00:25:36.449 --> 00:25:39.389 part of that so i i have to ask where 00:25:39.389 --> 00:25:42.349 does this leave the publications you 00:25:42.349 --> 00:25:46.869 and i sometimes have the privilege of writing for and also you know people like 00:25:46.869 --> 00:25:52.929 me that have their own platforms you know how does this all balance out i think 00:25:52.929 --> 00:25:57.389 it means that we're more important and the problem that we have but who do you 00:25:57.389 --> 00:26:02.029 mean by we in what sense traditional journalism yeah traditional journalists the media because, 00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:04.449 we 00:26:07.169 --> 00:26:10.969 In some ways we're now back to a a 00:26:10.969 --> 00:26:19.509 kind of pre we're back to kind of 2016 oh god are we yeah well because chris 00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:26.629 we made but we made a big we made a big decision in 2016 of Donald Trump told 00:26:26.629 --> 00:26:28.669 us up was down and night was day. 00:26:29.758 --> 00:26:35.798 And we thought that was unacceptable. And so we put in place checks and balances 00:26:35.798 --> 00:26:39.418 where we said, actually, you can lie, but you can only lie so far. 00:26:39.418 --> 00:26:40.838 And we have to call you out if you lie. 00:26:42.358 --> 00:26:47.598 And we're living with the consequences of not really going far enough on that. 00:26:47.778 --> 00:26:53.578 Because now there are, you know, not 50% of the population, but a big proportion 00:26:53.578 --> 00:26:57.198 of the population who will believe night is day and up is down, 00:26:57.378 --> 00:26:59.058 as long as Donald Trump says it. 00:26:59.058 --> 00:27:04.978 And what's worrying is they are now under the meta plan an arbiter of truth 00:27:04.978 --> 00:27:13.218 and so they can step in and say no night is day up is down and so it is i think important that a. 00:27:14.498 --> 00:27:18.358 Unfortunately people sign up to meta's um 00:27:18.358 --> 00:27:21.018 community notes program which they will be able to 00:27:21.018 --> 00:27:24.018 do when it rolls out yep and they try and you 00:27:24.018 --> 00:27:26.938 know fight back against that and provide their own 00:27:26.938 --> 00:27:29.898 notes that say no actually up is still up 00:27:29.898 --> 00:27:32.958 night is still night day is still day but also 00:27:32.958 --> 00:27:36.458 those outside of that ecosystem because it is now 00:27:36.458 --> 00:27:39.678 for at least the next four years pretty irreparably poisoned and 00:27:39.678 --> 00:27:42.958 we'll kind of um i'd be allowed to fester 00:27:42.958 --> 00:27:46.338 with that kind of approach of disinformation misinformation and 00:27:46.338 --> 00:27:49.278 then you know up is down and all that stuff 00:27:49.278 --> 00:27:52.298 we need to provide a really strong voice 00:27:52.298 --> 00:27:55.178 saying actually this isn't good and you 00:27:55.178 --> 00:27:59.958 know this isn't true and it's important that there is that person there shouting 00:27:59.958 --> 00:28:05.598 and saying no this if social platforms are going to ignore this and kind of 00:28:05.598 --> 00:28:09.818 abdicate their responsibility for it other people have to step up and i think 00:28:09.818 --> 00:28:12.538 it is important that we do that i'm. 00:28:13.788 --> 00:28:19.588 I mean, I mostly agree with you, but I also have one little element of not conflict, 00:28:19.868 --> 00:28:23.228 but I hope self-awareness, frankly, 00:28:23.768 --> 00:28:27.828 in that it's all very well for you and I as journalists to say, 00:28:27.908 --> 00:28:29.368 well, we are the arbiters of truth. 00:28:29.668 --> 00:28:34.888 But we also know that media outlets have screwed up at points. 00:28:35.088 --> 00:28:38.428 Yeah. and there needs to be you 00:28:38.428 --> 00:28:41.368 know part of the reason i set up the edition is because 00:28:41.368 --> 00:28:45.148 there needs to be people you know holding you 00:28:45.148 --> 00:28:48.368 know checking out what is happening in the media and the media industry so 00:28:48.368 --> 00:28:53.988 it is it's not a straightforward thing of that as if you know if it's in a mainstream 00:28:53.988 --> 00:28:59.148 new newspaper that's okay yeah and i think that's also a consequence of social 00:28:59.148 --> 00:29:05.208 media right is that we we no longer have gatekeepers um and there's no longer kind of editorial, 00:29:05.728 --> 00:29:10.188 And I'm sort of okay because holding gatekeepers to account is a good thing. 00:29:10.368 --> 00:29:15.588 Yes, I'm also deeply aware of the mess Mark Zuckerberg's decision is going to cause. 00:29:16.868 --> 00:29:21.788 Yeah, but I think unfortunately when you're in a situation like this, 00:29:21.828 --> 00:29:23.528 you have to pick the least worst option. 00:29:23.728 --> 00:29:26.988 And to me, the least worst option is the one that kind of got us through several 00:29:26.988 --> 00:29:32.908 hundred years of society relatively unscathed, rather than the last 20 years, 00:29:33.208 --> 00:29:35.928 and particularly the last 10, I suppose. 00:29:36.948 --> 00:29:42.828 Yeah, I do think there needs to be a, you know, we need to return to this idea of there are facts. 00:29:43.248 --> 00:29:46.248 And look, OK, I wrote a book about fake news. 00:29:46.408 --> 00:29:51.528 I do believe in this stuff. But I was also conscious as I was reporting on this, 00:29:51.848 --> 00:29:53.308 where I've been thinking about this, 00:29:53.768 --> 00:29:56.528 how just saying because it's gone 00:29:56.528 --> 00:29:59.308 through a reporter and a couple of editors means there 00:29:59.308 --> 00:30:02.248 can't be any mistakes is not good enough 00:30:02.248 --> 00:30:05.148 well i make mistakes 00:30:05.148 --> 00:30:08.428 but the point is we correct them and i think 00:30:08.428 --> 00:30:11.048 having you know 00:30:11.048 --> 00:30:13.888 it comes back to this kind of media literacy question which is 00:30:13.888 --> 00:30:16.988 one that's been vexing journalism for you know frankly even 00:30:16.988 --> 00:30:20.068 before social media or the idea of better understanding 00:30:20.068 --> 00:30:23.308 of how the sausage is made better understanding 00:30:23.308 --> 00:30:26.128 of the fact that journalists star humans and not robots and they will make 00:30:26.128 --> 00:30:28.948 mistakes but as long as they're kind of contrite about when they 00:30:28.948 --> 00:30:31.588 make mistakes and they're clear about how they made a 00:30:31.588 --> 00:30:34.468 mistake and how they corrected it then we need 00:30:34.468 --> 00:30:40.208 to restore trust and the problem is social media has been really empowering 00:30:40.208 --> 00:30:45.068 in some ways but it's also been really bad in terms of kind of making villains 00:30:45.068 --> 00:30:49.988 out of journalists when i don't think actually you know and again there'll be 00:30:49.988 --> 00:30:52.288 some people probably listening who will say well. 00:30:53.569 --> 00:30:59.709 Many of my colleagues deliberately go out to mislead and to kind of skew public opinion. 00:31:00.129 --> 00:31:03.789 I think that you have like, you know, we're kind of weird. 00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:08.369 Like, I don't think we could get better paid. 00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:11.469 We could work for the social media platforms if we wanted to do that and get 00:31:11.469 --> 00:31:13.509 far better paid than we do now. 00:31:14.149 --> 00:31:17.789 Well, one thing I certainly agree with you on is that journalists are weird. 00:31:18.469 --> 00:31:22.189 And I entirely put myself into that category. 00:31:22.769 --> 00:31:25.689 Chris, thank you so much for joining me right at the start of the year to really 00:31:25.689 --> 00:31:30.249 unpack these issues because they are going to play such a big role in the 12 00:31:30.249 --> 00:31:33.869 months ahead, which unfortunately for you means you're probably coming back on the show. 00:31:34.549 --> 00:31:37.329 What are you working on? Where should people keep up with you and so on? 00:31:37.669 --> 00:31:43.649 You can still keep up with me on X at Stokell and I'm on Blue Sky as well. 00:31:44.629 --> 00:31:48.629 And you'll probably find my writing somewhere, one or the other place on the internet. 00:31:49.089 --> 00:31:52.649 Very good. I'm at Charlotte A. Henry across social media platforms. 00:31:53.089 --> 00:31:58.689 If you're listening to this, you probably know that you can find most of what I do at theedition.net. 00:31:58.909 --> 00:32:02.529 I hope you are signed up for a paid subscription because there's some loads 00:32:02.529 --> 00:32:05.569 of really exciting stuff to come in 2025. 00:32:05.889 --> 00:32:12.769 So head over to theedition.net and support independent media scrutiny over there. 00:32:13.669 --> 00:32:16.969 Thank you so much once again, Chris, for joining me and I'll see you all next week. 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:26.200 Music.