WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:11.280 Music. 00:00:11.138 --> 00:00:14.518 To the edition podcast i'm your host charlotte henry and 00:00:14.518 --> 00:00:17.418 this week i'm very pleased to be joined once again by peter 00:00:17.418 --> 00:00:20.818 houston you all should know peter houston because he's one 00:00:20.818 --> 00:00:23.898 of the writers and people behind media voices he's one 00:00:23.898 --> 00:00:27.558 of the people that does the beautiful grub street journal magazine 00:00:27.558 --> 00:00:30.638 which will be doing that his newsletter magazine diaries 00:00:30.638 --> 00:00:33.318 has told the story of that magazine so there's a lot of 00:00:33.318 --> 00:00:36.278 media insight we can get from peter so hi thanks 00:00:36.278 --> 00:00:39.278 for joining me hello nice to 00:00:39.278 --> 00:00:45.178 be back so pleasant and delightful to have you back now i in that introduction 00:00:45.178 --> 00:00:49.978 i outlined a whole load of different things you do and in some ways they rather 00:00:49.978 --> 00:00:56.838 they kind of show a modern media career in lots of ways because you've got a 00:00:56.838 --> 00:00:58.858 print thing we know print is becoming. 00:00:59.898 --> 00:01:02.918 Resurgent you get annoyed if i compare it to the 00:01:02.918 --> 00:01:05.658 resurgence of vinyl but i might do it anyway just just to 00:01:05.658 --> 00:01:09.138 wind you up uh you have newsletters you've 00:01:09.138 --> 00:01:12.418 been involved in events you know media voice is doing great great events 00:01:12.418 --> 00:01:15.078 including by the way i put this in the newsletter the other 00:01:15.078 --> 00:01:17.938 day i loved podcasting a pub 00:01:17.938 --> 00:01:20.778 yay that was great fun 00:01:20.778 --> 00:01:24.018 wasn't it it was really fun it was well it's 00:01:24.018 --> 00:01:27.938 like three of my favorite things podcasts pub 00:01:27.938 --> 00:01:31.638 and the pub gave us great food yeah no 00:01:31.638 --> 00:01:34.698 it was a good it was a really good that's all things that i like and 00:01:34.698 --> 00:01:39.078 the fit was actually amazing yeah we had a great evening but what it showed 00:01:39.078 --> 00:01:41.998 to me and this kind of comes on to the main topic i want to talk to you about 00:01:41.998 --> 00:01:50.698 really was the never mind the podcasting people love media based around a community 00:01:50.698 --> 00:01:54.018 right and that's what it felt like when we were sitting in that room at the top of the pub. 00:01:55.277 --> 00:02:00.217 It was a community of people who, let's be honest, like you and I, 00:02:00.377 --> 00:02:02.197 are just media nerds. Yeah. 00:02:03.397 --> 00:02:09.517 No, definitely. I think that, so we were, I don't know if this is cheating or 00:02:09.517 --> 00:02:10.877 if this is being really smart, 00:02:11.557 --> 00:02:18.777 but we had the Pod in a Pub event, which was basically us recording an episode of Media Voices in a pub. 00:02:19.657 --> 00:02:26.177 Um right after news rewired which for anyone who knows it is a great conference 00:02:26.177 --> 00:02:31.957 really good people go to it uh great topics great speakers but we decided okay 00:02:31.957 --> 00:02:35.997 well we're going to go along to that anyway um so why not do it right afterwards 00:02:35.997 --> 00:02:38.757 and that meant that you know the people that know us, 00:02:39.397 --> 00:02:42.437 came along after news rewired like marcella 00:02:42.437 --> 00:02:45.777 was there um marcella who 00:02:45.777 --> 00:02:48.537 organizes news rewired yeah 00:02:48.537 --> 00:02:51.237 um you definitely needed a drink in a 00:02:51.237 --> 00:02:54.297 pub after that day yeah that was wild she 00:02:54.297 --> 00:02:57.597 was telling me that she got there and no one else could get well 00:02:57.597 --> 00:03:02.917 let's give some context yeah it was one of the days where transport across the 00:03:02.917 --> 00:03:08.217 uk including into london was completely stuffed up uh your colleague esther 00:03:08.217 --> 00:03:13.797 i think had quite a traumatic journey in there yeah um anyway but everyone did 00:03:13.797 --> 00:03:17.077 get there and it meant people could cross the road into the pub and listen to a podcast. 00:03:17.797 --> 00:03:20.877 Yeah it was great um and yeah you're right it's a community thing 00:03:20.877 --> 00:03:23.697 it's like you're seeing people you see people you haven't 00:03:23.697 --> 00:03:26.397 seen for a while you see people you've never met before and you 00:03:26.397 --> 00:03:30.017 get you know you get new perspectives new conversations that 00:03:30.017 --> 00:03:32.837 was fun that was really good and the point about 00:03:32.837 --> 00:03:35.637 it for me is it because we're 00:03:35.637 --> 00:03:38.717 all passionate about the media like you three you esther chris 00:03:38.717 --> 00:03:41.757 the people behind media voices are passionate about media 00:03:41.757 --> 00:03:45.377 and so you've turned that passion into 00:03:45.377 --> 00:03:49.197 a project hopefully profits i won't go through your accounts at this stage but 00:03:49.197 --> 00:03:55.697 yeah but you've turned it into it's not just a side hustle it's as a passion 00:03:55.697 --> 00:03:59.497 it's you're passionate about it and you're trying to run an effective business 00:03:59.497 --> 00:04:05.017 and in the media in 2024 2025 that's really really important. 00:04:07.007 --> 00:04:15.987 Yeah, it definitely is important. I think that without people who are passionate about the subject, 00:04:17.007 --> 00:04:22.027 without people who turn that passion into output, you know, real-life stuff, 00:04:22.207 --> 00:04:24.007 they don't just talk about it. Stuff, yeah. 00:04:24.967 --> 00:04:31.407 But they actually, it's what Steph Godin calls shipping. 00:04:31.887 --> 00:04:36.147 You know, you have to ship to actually make a difference. so as long as you 00:04:36.147 --> 00:04:40.407 know if you've got that passion but you also ship stuff then i think that's 00:04:40.407 --> 00:04:42.867 really important because in a market where, 00:04:43.987 --> 00:04:51.827 there's a danger that the only way to make money is certainly at scale is if 00:04:51.827 --> 00:04:55.367 you sort of cater to the lowest common denominator, 00:04:55.927 --> 00:05:01.467 i think there's a danger well i don't think i know there is a danger that stuff 00:05:01.467 --> 00:05:03.387 just ends up being a bit rubbish. 00:05:05.067 --> 00:05:07.767 Okay i i want to pick up on a couple of points so first of 00:05:07.767 --> 00:05:10.447 all let's talk about this idea of shipping i think it's a 00:05:10.447 --> 00:05:13.307 great way of putting it because okay so i'm passionate 00:05:13.307 --> 00:05:16.367 about heavy metal music i love listening to metal i 00:05:16.367 --> 00:05:19.207 love music i like going to gigs i am 00:05:19.207 --> 00:05:22.487 never going to write a blog a newsletter make 00:05:22.487 --> 00:05:25.947 youtube content etc etc about heavy 00:05:25.947 --> 00:05:31.387 metal it's my hobby i enjoy it i talk about it with my mates who I go to gigs 00:05:31.387 --> 00:05:38.067 to but there's a difference between that and say when I'm writing about media 00:05:38.067 --> 00:05:42.727 coverage of football which is another passion of mine but I'm making something 00:05:42.727 --> 00:05:44.547 that's really what you're getting at right. 00:05:46.491 --> 00:05:50.271 Yeah, it's the idea that you've got something to add to the conversation. 00:05:50.491 --> 00:05:52.451 Well, I would. Let's be careful about it. 00:05:53.731 --> 00:05:56.551 Well, no, everyone does, right? 00:05:56.731 --> 00:06:02.891 But some people add to the conversation without any context, 00:06:03.431 --> 00:06:09.951 without any background information, without the understanding or the expertise maybe. 00:06:11.131 --> 00:06:19.011 That brings people to conclusions that they might not otherwise reach. 00:06:19.911 --> 00:06:22.651 And I think that's what we've always tried to do in Media Voices. 00:06:22.671 --> 00:06:25.851 We don't expect anyone to agree with us at Media Voices, 00:06:25.851 --> 00:06:30.631 but we always try to present an 00:06:30.631 --> 00:06:34.591 opinion or an analysis that 00:06:34.591 --> 00:06:37.431 is based on real stuff rather than 00:06:37.431 --> 00:06:40.391 just you know this is what we think and 00:06:40.391 --> 00:06:43.711 yeah yeah whether that be having expert 00:06:43.711 --> 00:06:46.651 guests on etc etc etc exactly the other 00:06:46.651 --> 00:06:49.951 point i want to pick you up on is you talked about uh scale 00:06:49.951 --> 00:06:52.911 and the only way to make money at scale is kind of the lowest 00:06:52.911 --> 00:06:55.971 common denominator and i think you're in some 00:06:55.971 --> 00:06:58.811 ways right about that but i also want to pick you up as well 00:06:58.811 --> 00:07:01.691 because i strongly and i know this is another phrase you 00:07:01.691 --> 00:07:05.071 hate those sort of riches in niches phrase but 00:07:05.071 --> 00:07:08.231 i do think that is self-evidently true now i 00:07:08.231 --> 00:07:13.651 think if you want to make a general news site um it was so ineffective i've 00:07:13.651 --> 00:07:18.111 forgotten the net was it the messenger um that was a complete disaster because 00:07:18.111 --> 00:07:24.831 it tried to do everything and that's just not a space anymore it's too difficult 00:07:24.831 --> 00:07:27.011 to make money in that space. 00:07:27.711 --> 00:07:30.631 But i think for example a media voices 00:07:30.631 --> 00:07:33.371 where you're doing or i hope the addition where you're 00:07:33.371 --> 00:07:36.271 focusing on something and there's all sorts of other 00:07:36.271 --> 00:07:39.551 places you know there's all sorts of other niches niches 00:07:39.551 --> 00:07:42.851 niches um make it right where people 00:07:42.851 --> 00:07:45.611 are focusing and that's really useful so a really 00:07:45.611 --> 00:07:48.491 insightful politics newsletter for the 00:07:48.491 --> 00:07:51.571 people inside westminster that is a valuable asset 00:07:51.571 --> 00:07:54.731 writing general celebrity 00:07:54.731 --> 00:07:57.691 news could do some good but i think you're 00:07:57.691 --> 00:08:00.471 still competing with the big beasts of the tabloids at that 00:08:00.471 --> 00:08:03.331 point yeah because they're 00:08:03.331 --> 00:08:07.651 they're you know they're they're trying to they're trying to keep everyone happy 00:08:07.651 --> 00:08:15.031 right right i've got a coaster on my bedside table and it says i'd rather be 00:08:15.031 --> 00:08:20.571 someone's more whiskey than everyone's cup of tea, 00:08:21.690 --> 00:08:30.330 Oh, I like that. And I think that's why, you know, this is sounding really wanky, 00:08:30.350 --> 00:08:33.430 but I'm not saying there's space for everyone, 00:08:34.270 --> 00:08:37.030 but there's space for loads and loads and loads of voices. 00:08:39.050 --> 00:08:45.170 And if you, the way people, I think the way people rise to the top is if they're passionate, 00:08:45.670 --> 00:08:50.130 is if they're opinionated, not 00:08:50.130 --> 00:08:52.830 necessarily as i am opinionated sometimes which is 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:56.050 can be a little bit abrasive and brash no you 00:08:56.050 --> 00:08:58.750 peter but then i'm scottish and i get away with that 00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:01.610 but have an opinion that you're 00:09:01.610 --> 00:09:08.650 willing to express the other thing is you've just got to keep showing up it's 00:09:08.650 --> 00:09:15.910 consistency right and i think people that people that do those three things 00:09:15.910 --> 00:09:18.830 rise to the surface or get visibility. 00:09:19.970 --> 00:09:23.390 And can actually start adding to the conversation now 00:09:23.390 --> 00:09:26.370 here's where it gets difficult can you 00:09:26.370 --> 00:09:29.110 make enough money to keep doing it 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.790 well that's why i wanted the subject of this to be 00:09:31.790 --> 00:09:35.110 not just passions but profits into passions 00:09:35.110 --> 00:09:37.730 now that doesn't mean we're going to talk about you know 00:09:37.730 --> 00:09:41.450 the different ways you make money through affiliate ads programmatic ads sponsorships 00:09:41.450 --> 00:09:44.190 events etc although you do have because of your 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:48.710 various businesses a huge amount to add or contribute to that conversation so 00:09:48.710 --> 00:09:56.690 we'll weave that in but it's more about what you have to do to find your audience 00:09:56.690 --> 00:10:02.030 to find your community to to turn that passion into a profit right, 00:10:03.055 --> 00:10:08.715 I wrote a newsletter a couple of weeks back, maybe a month back, maybe longer. 00:10:11.335 --> 00:10:19.255 And one of the things, it wasn't passion versus profit, but it was more passion 00:10:19.255 --> 00:10:22.435 comes after profit in some ways. 00:10:22.675 --> 00:10:24.715 That's not true. Passion comes first. 00:10:25.395 --> 00:10:27.955 That's why you start something, because you're passionate about it. 00:10:28.075 --> 00:10:31.015 Well, this was the newsletter, by the way, for listeners, that inspired me to 00:10:31.015 --> 00:10:32.595 drag you back onto the show. Yeah. 00:10:33.215 --> 00:10:37.075 A magazine diaries yes we'll we'll talk about that in a minute sorry continue, 00:10:39.015 --> 00:10:41.695 so my point with that is passion will get you 00:10:41.695 --> 00:10:44.415 so far but eventually you got 00:10:44.415 --> 00:10:47.555 to start looking at how you're going to pay for stuff i i 00:10:47.555 --> 00:10:50.455 wrote that in the context of a print magazine which you know 00:10:50.455 --> 00:10:53.795 we did four issues of the grub street journal loved it 00:10:53.795 --> 00:10:57.375 insanely passionate about it and then 00:10:57.375 --> 00:11:00.055 realized oh my god we haven't got enough money to print a 00:11:00.055 --> 00:11:05.455 fifth one because we hadn't spent enough time thinking about I don't know marketing 00:11:05.455 --> 00:11:12.015 or sales or advertising or all the things that would make enough money to fund 00:11:12.015 --> 00:11:17.615 a fifth issue but you know it wasn't deliberate but it was conscious. 00:11:18.235 --> 00:11:21.335 We just we just well if 00:11:21.335 --> 00:11:24.855 I'm being honest we couldn't be asked marketing it it was it was 00:11:24.855 --> 00:11:28.155 much more fun making it than it was marketing it 00:11:28.155 --> 00:11:31.595 and and that's not enough you've 00:11:31.595 --> 00:11:34.655 got to do things that you don't your passion doesn't necessarily 00:11:34.655 --> 00:11:37.295 bring you to or extend to you got to 00:11:37.295 --> 00:11:40.295 do things like marketing or i don't 00:11:40.295 --> 00:11:43.235 know networking or all the things that people don't really 00:11:43.235 --> 00:11:46.135 like doing yeah i think 00:11:46.135 --> 00:11:48.875 for people like you and i and i'm guilty of it as well 00:11:48.875 --> 00:11:52.115 all the things you're describing because we care so so i 00:11:52.115 --> 00:11:56.075 love writing about the media i love writing my newsletter i 00:11:56.075 --> 00:11:59.055 etc etc etc i love putting blog posts 00:11:59.055 --> 00:12:01.795 up and there is a bit with all of 00:12:01.795 --> 00:12:07.715 us in this kind of i hate to use the phrase creator economy in some ways not 00:12:07.715 --> 00:12:12.215 because i don't believe in it but because it makes people just think of you 00:12:12.215 --> 00:12:16.175 tiktokers and youtubers and i think the creator economy as i've written a set 00:12:16.175 --> 00:12:20.235 of columns for you at media voices goes beyond that yeah Anyway, 00:12:21.855 --> 00:12:28.795 what I, the whole point is that we like making the stuff right. 00:12:29.655 --> 00:12:36.815 And we think if they make, if we make it, they will come. And that's not the case. Right. 00:12:38.849 --> 00:12:44.009 No, it's not. It's a classic. What was that movie? Field of Dreams. Right. 00:12:44.549 --> 00:12:49.789 It's not the Field of Dreams. If you make it and you promote it on LinkedIn 00:12:49.789 --> 00:12:52.909 and you promote it on X or Twitter or whatever, 00:12:53.889 --> 00:12:57.689 and Blue Sky, and you talk about it at every opportunity and you go on guest 00:12:57.689 --> 00:13:00.689 podcasts and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 00:13:01.009 --> 00:13:04.309 then yeah, maybe then you'll sell enough copies to print the next one. 00:13:04.609 --> 00:13:10.769 Yeah. or you'll get the sign-ups you need to have a decent chance of charging 00:13:10.769 --> 00:13:14.869 subscriptions on your newsletter or get people to come to your event. 00:13:15.289 --> 00:13:17.169 You know, we did the pod in the pub. 00:13:17.829 --> 00:13:20.069 We did the pod in the pub. 00:13:21.529 --> 00:13:24.749 A few days before, we were like, well, I don't know if anyone's actually going 00:13:24.749 --> 00:13:25.869 to bother coming to this. 00:13:26.369 --> 00:13:29.549 You know, you're definitely putting yourself out there. 00:13:29.549 --> 00:13:38.509 And it is about marketing and communications and selling stuff and creators, 00:13:38.949 --> 00:13:42.549 not necessarily people that like selling stuff. 00:13:43.429 --> 00:13:48.569 Yeah, it's a really interesting one. I think, I don't know if it's a British 00:13:48.569 --> 00:13:54.889 thing or a female thing or whatever, I think we're all quite self-deprecating as well, right? 00:13:54.929 --> 00:13:58.869 It was a bit like, oh, I'm a bit embarrassed to tell you to buy a subscription. 00:13:58.869 --> 00:14:02.849 I'm a bit embarrassed to tell you to read my newsletter and say, please sign up. 00:14:03.909 --> 00:14:08.789 And then you just get into this sort of circle of like, OK, you've got your 00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:12.309 passion, but that's never going to turn into anything if you don't actually 00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:13.489 tell people about it, right? 00:14:14.009 --> 00:14:20.089 Yeah, definitely. Well, imagine spending, I don't know, the actual man hours 00:14:20.089 --> 00:14:22.309 that go into making anything. 00:14:23.249 --> 00:14:27.129 Grub Street Journal is a perfect example because, you know, it was days and 00:14:27.129 --> 00:14:29.269 days and days and days of time. 00:14:30.009 --> 00:14:34.389 And then you're kind of apologetic about asking people for a tenner. Right, right. 00:14:35.829 --> 00:14:41.829 And it's nuts. It's bonkers. I don't know that, yeah, maybe it is a British thing. I don't know. 00:14:42.029 --> 00:14:45.029 And then knobheads like me go, Peter, will you just send me a free copy? 00:14:47.409 --> 00:14:51.669 Did I send you a free copy? I think I nicked one from one of your events. Sorry, mate. 00:14:53.669 --> 00:14:58.969 But you know there is always that thing so okay people listening who want to 00:14:58.969 --> 00:15:04.089 start making stuff in 2025 first of all do it is what we're saying second of 00:15:04.089 --> 00:15:06.229 all tell people you're doing it, 00:15:07.429 --> 00:15:10.689 well second of all actually make sure you care about the thing you're making 00:15:10.689 --> 00:15:16.769 third of all tell people you're doing that you are doing it but, 00:15:17.928 --> 00:15:20.628 how do you take it to the next step i really want to hear about 00:15:20.628 --> 00:15:23.928 the story of grub street journal actually because it's a beautiful product 00:15:23.928 --> 00:15:26.608 so well before i 00:15:26.608 --> 00:15:29.888 talk before i tell you about grub let me tell you what do you know mag 00:15:29.888 --> 00:15:33.068 culture is a magazine a beautiful print magazine 00:15:33.068 --> 00:15:35.988 shop in london yep and jeremy allegedly is 00:15:35.988 --> 00:15:39.408 the guy who runs he's been writing and talking about independent magazines 00:15:39.408 --> 00:15:42.788 for years and years and years and he's just you know one of the smartest guys 00:15:42.788 --> 00:15:48.868 on independent magazines and when he does he does classes or he does master 00:15:48.868 --> 00:15:53.728 classes or his students come in the shop and they say um how do i make an independent 00:15:53.728 --> 00:15:56.088 magazine his first response is don't, 00:15:57.868 --> 00:16:01.368 magazine and he says it's not because he wants to put people off it's because 00:16:01.368 --> 00:16:05.528 he wants people to think about why they're doing it in the first place and i 00:16:05.528 --> 00:16:11.648 think that's the starting point I mean for us Joanna and I decided to do Grub Street. 00:16:14.968 --> 00:16:23.368 We'd come off being at Magazine Street which is a magazine conference in Edinburgh run by Nick Simpson, 00:16:25.508 --> 00:16:28.388 and Joanna had been working on Word on 00:16:28.388 --> 00:16:31.428 the Street which is a kind of publication of that 00:16:31.428 --> 00:16:35.348 event and we got 00:16:35.348 --> 00:16:38.828 the print copy in the house and it was just so beautiful it was just it was 00:16:38.828 --> 00:16:43.648 designed by simon esserson simon's a legend john had done the words and it was 00:16:43.648 --> 00:16:46.608 just such a buzz getting this and then we kind of looked at each other and thought 00:16:46.608 --> 00:16:52.408 okay we need to make a magazine and then people wonder why you're married, 00:16:54.188 --> 00:16:57.128 that really was the impetus it was like let's do 00:16:57.128 --> 00:16:59.988 this because this would be fun and this will be interesting and 00:16:59.988 --> 00:17:02.688 we weren't done no illusions that it was going 00:17:02.688 --> 00:17:05.368 to make us rich or anything like that because it's you know 00:17:05.368 --> 00:17:08.608 if you're talking about niche publications it's 00:17:08.608 --> 00:17:11.988 a magazine for people who make magazines and that's a 00:17:11.988 --> 00:17:15.668 kind of ever decreasing circle that one um 00:17:15.668 --> 00:17:21.268 but we thought right you know what let's do it but let's treat it like um almost 00:17:21.268 --> 00:17:27.008 like an experiment what can we learn in doing this and we went out and we talked 00:17:27.008 --> 00:17:31.448 to people and um asked them you know the first issue is what can idiots make 00:17:31.448 --> 00:17:35.648 magazines which i think i spoke to you on yeah we definitely had a show. 00:17:37.787 --> 00:17:42.227 It absolutely did. It's worth people listening back to. So it was kind of tongue-in-cheek. 00:17:42.347 --> 00:17:46.307 It was always, well, we know this is a really tough industry, but we love it. 00:17:46.907 --> 00:17:51.087 You know, we love buying magazines. We love reading magazines. 00:17:51.887 --> 00:17:55.227 You know, show me a person that doesn't love reading a print magazine. 00:17:55.227 --> 00:18:00.647 I'll show you someone that's got no soul or just dead behind the eyes. If you say so yourself. 00:18:02.387 --> 00:18:06.907 So that was the starting point. I think quite quickly we get into, 00:18:07.087 --> 00:18:09.747 okay, we're going to have to pay, I don't know, whatever it was, 00:18:09.887 --> 00:18:12.947 two grand to get this published or printed rather. 00:18:13.847 --> 00:18:18.927 And that's where the, you know, that's where the rubber hits the road, right? 00:18:19.627 --> 00:18:23.167 That's where you start thinking, oh, my God, I've actually got to sell. 00:18:23.287 --> 00:18:29.147 At 10 or a go, I've got to sell 200 copies off the bat before I've even covered 00:18:29.147 --> 00:18:31.447 my costs. And that wasn't including design costs. 00:18:32.687 --> 00:18:38.427 Or I've got to sell advertising. or, you know, it all becomes very quickly less 00:18:38.427 --> 00:18:44.187 about the passion for the project and as much about spreadsheets. 00:18:44.547 --> 00:18:48.527 And then that's where the culture clash happens, right? Yeah, definitely is. 00:18:50.147 --> 00:18:53.467 And I think ultimately we printed four issues of Grub Street. 00:18:53.647 --> 00:18:57.567 We didn't, you know... Did we lose a lot of money? 00:18:58.747 --> 00:19:01.607 I'm trying to think. Don't think about it. 00:19:01.847 --> 00:19:06.947 No, I'm not thinking too hard about it. We certainly didn't lose every single 00:19:06.947 --> 00:19:08.167 penny that we put into it. 00:19:08.307 --> 00:19:11.567 We made money by selling copies. We made money by selling some advertising. 00:19:13.007 --> 00:19:14.587 We got some help from people. 00:19:17.727 --> 00:19:25.127 But we didn't turn a profit. And when we came to publish issue five, 00:19:25.147 --> 00:19:30.687 it was like, okay, let's just pause this and think, how do we do it? 00:19:31.378 --> 00:19:37.418 And sustainably, rather than how do we do it and have a real blast and a buzz making it. 00:19:37.498 --> 00:19:41.318 You know, we had so much fun making those magazines. It was nuts. 00:19:42.298 --> 00:19:45.538 And that comes through in the product. Yeah, it was just fun. 00:19:45.718 --> 00:19:49.358 It was really fun. And, you know, you call that fun, call it passion, whatever. 00:19:50.518 --> 00:19:55.278 It wasn't enough. We had to figure out how do we make some money. 00:19:55.278 --> 00:19:58.778 So my focus now is to, going into 2025. 00:20:00.198 --> 00:20:06.118 Is to put some of that content, actually most of that content out digitally, 00:20:07.258 --> 00:20:12.718 but also fire up my newsletter again in magazine diaries properly as a weekly 00:20:12.718 --> 00:20:17.278 and then turn the magazine diaries into a paid product at some level. 00:20:17.478 --> 00:20:20.918 So there will always be a free version of the magazine diaries, 00:20:21.618 --> 00:20:26.098 but then come up with something else that people will actually hopefully pay 00:20:26.098 --> 00:20:29.578 money for as I said to you, do some training courses, 00:20:29.758 --> 00:20:35.018 maybe do some online training but keep that grub ethos going through this other 00:20:35.018 --> 00:20:37.478 stuff and again as you said at the beginning, 00:20:37.638 --> 00:20:44.778 build that community around this again go back to it wasn't Seth Godden Seth 00:20:44.778 --> 00:20:50.598 Godden talks about being famous to the family do you know Seth Godden? 00:20:51.118 --> 00:20:54.658 I have a couple of his books on the bookshelf. Yeah. So he's read, 00:20:54.678 --> 00:20:56.278 he writes this market and stuff. 00:20:57.338 --> 00:21:02.198 He's, he's one of the, it is genius. I love the fact that he's still blogging in 2024. 00:21:02.538 --> 00:21:05.358 And as I say, I have two, two of his books on the bookshelf, 00:21:05.938 --> 00:21:08.358 which I, so I, I really enjoy his, I mean, 00:21:09.223 --> 00:21:14.443 Sometimes it feels a bit kind of trite and cliche, but there's always just a 00:21:14.443 --> 00:21:17.003 nugget. There's always something there. Yeah, totally. 00:21:17.683 --> 00:21:20.283 Well, this thing he talked about was being famous to the family, 00:21:20.283 --> 00:21:24.303 and it's that idea that, you know, again, go back to the idea of scale. 00:21:24.763 --> 00:21:28.143 You don't have to be – everyone doesn't have to be talking about you. 00:21:28.483 --> 00:21:32.263 Just the people that matter have to be talking about you. Was it a thousand 00:21:32.263 --> 00:21:33.563 true fans, that kind of vibe? 00:21:33.963 --> 00:21:38.143 That's Kevin Kelly. Yes. He was one of the guys behind Wired. 00:21:38.863 --> 00:21:44.123 But it's the same vibe is my point same vibe yeah exactly do you think that stands in 2024 2025. 00:21:46.163 --> 00:21:50.583 I think it depends how ambitious you are right how much money do you want to make, 00:21:52.523 --> 00:21:55.823 um i think a thousand true fans there's 00:21:55.823 --> 00:21:58.723 been different ways of looking at that one but i think that's a hell of 00:21:58.723 --> 00:22:01.923 a start right if i was 00:22:01.923 --> 00:22:04.643 being honest because eventually you get 00:22:04.643 --> 00:22:07.563 to a point where there's a network effect right those thousand people 00:22:07.563 --> 00:22:11.383 start talking about you you're in a good place which 00:22:11.383 --> 00:22:14.223 is of course actually if you read the original a thousand true 00:22:14.223 --> 00:22:16.983 fans document and i'll put it in the show i'll try and find it 00:22:16.983 --> 00:22:19.803 and put it in the show notes they do talk about that 00:22:19.803 --> 00:22:22.883 it doesn't mean only have a thousand people engaging your 00:22:22.883 --> 00:22:25.623 work but make sure there's a thousand people obsessed with 00:22:25.623 --> 00:22:28.543 your work exactly and the point with that is those 00:22:28.543 --> 00:22:33.023 are the people that'll pay so if you've got a newsletter and you've got a thousand 00:22:33.023 --> 00:22:38.083 true fans that'll pay a fiver a month you're doing all right right and then 00:22:38.083 --> 00:22:42.523 they'll buy a t-shirt when you put it out etc etc etc but again that's the other 00:22:42.523 --> 00:22:46.183 side of passion into profits right because it's not just your passion, 00:22:46.703 --> 00:22:49.923 it's the passion of the people that you want to engage 00:22:49.923 --> 00:22:56.383 with your product 100 so again in that newsletter my point was your passion 00:22:56.383 --> 00:23:02.483 is actually kind of irrelevant unless it aligns with the passion of the people 00:23:02.483 --> 00:23:07.363 that ultimately will pay for what you're doing you need those people to be. 00:23:08.845 --> 00:23:12.745 I don't know, you need them to be on board, right, enough to give you some money. 00:23:13.465 --> 00:23:18.165 And that sometimes can mean your passions have to take a little bit of a back 00:23:18.165 --> 00:23:22.345 seat to get people through the door. 00:23:22.685 --> 00:23:26.425 You know, AI is a perfect example of this, right? 00:23:26.785 --> 00:23:30.345 Well done, you've taken 20 minutes before you ran about AI. I'm going to meet 00:23:30.345 --> 00:23:32.185 my mic, I'm going to sit back, off you go, Peter. 00:23:32.545 --> 00:23:38.465 Well, I don't actually mean using AI. What I mean is talking about AI. 00:23:38.845 --> 00:23:49.985 You cannot go to a media conference or read a media newsletter or a podcast without AI coming up. 00:23:50.185 --> 00:23:56.845 Now, that's partly because it's really important and not everyone knows what's going on with AI. 00:23:57.165 --> 00:24:00.265 Actually, that's bollocks. No one knows what's going on with AI. 00:24:01.345 --> 00:24:05.145 So the the opportunity there 00:24:05.145 --> 00:24:08.745 for the creator is put ai in your headline and 00:24:08.745 --> 00:24:14.805 people will pay attention to it that's probably not your passion it's certainly 00:24:14.805 --> 00:24:20.925 not our passion when we when we create a a podcast or we create a newsletter 00:24:20.925 --> 00:24:25.185 but we know that people are going to respond to that, 00:24:25.725 --> 00:24:28.565 so you have to actually just pay attention to 00:24:28.565 --> 00:24:31.685 what your audience wants in some instances rather 00:24:31.685 --> 00:24:35.085 than what your passion happens to be like you said you 00:24:35.085 --> 00:24:39.165 know if you start a newsletter just about metal then 00:24:39.165 --> 00:24:41.825 you might love writing it but you might 00:24:41.825 --> 00:24:44.565 not find enough people to actually buy it 00:24:44.565 --> 00:24:49.485 or to pay for it or to subscribe to it so you've got to balance your passions 00:24:49.485 --> 00:24:54.205 with what the passion of the audience you can reach and also what else is satisfying 00:24:54.205 --> 00:25:00.385 that passion you know there's loads of great websites and youtubes and newsletters 00:25:00.385 --> 00:25:02.505 about metal already do they need me. 00:25:03.993 --> 00:25:07.773 Yeah and the same thing is true of AI actually you probably shouldn't start 00:25:07.773 --> 00:25:10.573 a newsletter about AI right no because there's a building on them you really 00:25:10.573 --> 00:25:12.133 shouldn't people please don't no more, 00:25:14.233 --> 00:25:18.633 so yeah I think the point with that one Adam Tinworth 00:25:18.633 --> 00:25:23.713 wrote a thing about audience uh listening to your audiences recently and again 00:25:23.713 --> 00:25:28.273 it was in the it was in the AI context it's about Ruffle was it News Rewired 00:25:28.273 --> 00:25:34.913 I'm just throwing these names in but these are all people who have wonderful opinions on this space. 00:25:36.333 --> 00:25:42.513 As it all got pissed off, annoyed, I'm not sure what the right word is, 00:25:43.253 --> 00:25:50.813 about people talking about AI, you know, as a way to answer audience engagement issues. 00:25:51.213 --> 00:25:54.013 Yes. And she's like, well, why don't you just ask your audience? 00:25:54.353 --> 00:25:58.393 And Adam's weighed in on that, talking about audience engagement. 00:25:58.573 --> 00:26:00.113 He said, those two words are really important. 00:26:00.933 --> 00:26:03.793 People think of the engagement part of that first and foremost 00:26:03.793 --> 00:26:06.813 with the metrics and all the rest of it what you 00:26:06.813 --> 00:26:10.453 actually also need to be thinking about is the audience part what does 00:26:10.453 --> 00:26:13.153 your audience want and again there was 00:26:13.153 --> 00:26:15.873 a conversation about this at news rewired which was 00:26:15.873 --> 00:26:18.713 really useful it was one of the real highlights of the day actually 00:26:18.713 --> 00:26:23.213 i wrote about it in my review of it like that idea of 00:26:23.213 --> 00:26:28.093 you know audiences mattering engaging 00:26:28.093 --> 00:26:31.313 with that audience and there here we go again passion so 00:26:31.313 --> 00:26:36.813 that it leads to profits really matters but because 00:26:36.813 --> 00:26:39.593 if so i guess there's two kinds of 00:26:39.593 --> 00:26:42.893 purchases in the world right there's that impulse buy 00:26:42.893 --> 00:26:48.633 yeah and there's this really considered research buy sure there's maybe a venn 00:26:48.633 --> 00:26:54.713 diagram where where the research buy and the impulse buy kind of come together 00:26:54.713 --> 00:26:59.973 and that's passion right i know a lot about this subject I see this thing. 00:27:01.275 --> 00:27:04.955 And I buy it automatically because I know that it ticks the boxes about what 00:27:04.955 --> 00:27:07.415 I already know about that subject. Right. 00:27:08.555 --> 00:27:11.575 And I think that's where media people want to be. 00:27:11.695 --> 00:27:14.735 They want to be at that point in the Venn diagram where people think, 00:27:14.835 --> 00:27:17.335 you know what, I am going to spend a five-year-old week on this, 00:27:17.415 --> 00:27:21.375 or I am going to spend a tenner for this beautiful print magazine. 00:27:21.915 --> 00:27:25.335 I mean, a tenner for a print magazine these days, for an indie magazine, 00:27:25.415 --> 00:27:26.375 is actually quite cheap. 00:27:26.815 --> 00:27:30.255 Some of them are like 15, 16, 17 quid. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:27:30.255 --> 00:27:33.355 Um is it going to come back the print 00:27:33.355 --> 00:27:37.875 version of grub street yeah oh 100 wonderful when 00:27:37.875 --> 00:27:40.555 and how yeah which is kind of 00:27:40.555 --> 00:27:43.855 the whole basis of our conversation today which i'm really pleased i've 00:27:43.855 --> 00:27:47.135 had you looking forward to 2025 then 00:27:47.135 --> 00:27:51.975 because we're going to see more of this i mean your colleague chris always jokes 00:27:51.975 --> 00:27:57.595 that on january the 1st 2024 everyone stopped talking about web 3 and started 00:27:57.595 --> 00:28:01.395 talking about ai and i think he's got a point obviously we won't ever tell chris 00:28:01.395 --> 00:28:06.575 that he's got a point but if we were to do that uh he does have a point on this, 00:28:07.815 --> 00:28:15.455 in which case what is 20 what is 2025 going to be about in that sense do you 00:28:15.455 --> 00:28:23.595 think we can make 2025 about project you know passion projects that turn a profit dare i suggest it. 00:28:26.537 --> 00:28:32.297 I think I said this at a pod in a pub. I think 2025 is going to be a year of 00:28:32.297 --> 00:28:34.777 consolidation. You did say this, yeah. 00:28:35.657 --> 00:28:41.177 Where people actually are thinking, what the fuck just happened in 2024? 00:28:42.537 --> 00:28:49.757 Which is not bad, though. No, and I think, you know, the revenue thing I think is interesting. 00:28:49.757 --> 00:28:55.877 I think people will try and focus on what's working rather than just throwing 00:28:55.877 --> 00:28:58.157 stuff at the wall to see what sticks. 00:29:00.357 --> 00:29:06.657 I think new projects that people are bringing back in are more likely to be 00:29:06.657 --> 00:29:12.357 in support of things that they already do rather than brand new stuff. 00:29:13.877 --> 00:29:18.717 So for me, I'm obviously focusing quite a lot on print at the moment. 00:29:19.457 --> 00:29:22.897 So i think bringing my print product in to 00:29:22.897 --> 00:29:25.737 the mix that supports what you're doing digitally and vice 00:29:25.737 --> 00:29:28.717 versa and i was interested to see wired's just 00:29:28.717 --> 00:29:31.457 gone from bi-monthly to quarterly in the 00:29:31.457 --> 00:29:34.337 yes i i got a my latest copy 00:29:34.337 --> 00:29:37.077 of wired dropped through my door and i had a letter explaining that 00:29:37.077 --> 00:29:40.337 to me so what so i think you can 00:29:40.337 --> 00:29:43.617 you can look at that you think oh my god here we go another one cutting back 00:29:43.617 --> 00:29:47.717 but actually what wired seems to be doing is 00:29:47.717 --> 00:29:50.977 focusing on more global coverage online 00:29:50.977 --> 00:29:54.337 and then i guess. 00:29:54.337 --> 00:29:57.417 The print issues will be a little bit more localized 00:29:57.417 --> 00:30:00.397 well in a in an 00:30:00.397 --> 00:30:03.657 area like tech that absolutely 100 00:30:03.657 --> 00:30:06.897 makes sense of course it does because you 00:30:06.897 --> 00:30:10.157 want to read about what's going on in the states or in asia or 00:30:10.157 --> 00:30:12.857 in the uk or whatever it doesn't matter as long as 00:30:12.857 --> 00:30:15.577 it's innovative technology so i 00:30:15.577 --> 00:30:19.437 thought that was quite interesting and that that's that consolidation idea 00:30:19.437 --> 00:30:23.637 um i also 00:30:23.637 --> 00:30:26.857 think people just are a little bit exhausted 00:30:26.857 --> 00:30:29.737 you know the last four or five years have 00:30:29.737 --> 00:30:34.257 been rough between going into 00:30:34.257 --> 00:30:36.997 well start with trump and all 00:30:36.997 --> 00:30:40.057 that nonsense and i said it's almost 00:30:40.057 --> 00:30:43.677 10 years jesus i was going to say brexit that's 00:30:43.677 --> 00:30:49.397 almost 10 years it is yeah and also i mean the point is whatever side of the 00:30:49.397 --> 00:30:54.497 these political divides you fall on it's been intense yeah absolutely doesn't 00:30:54.497 --> 00:30:59.117 matter what newspaper you read it's been intense and i think you know Esther 00:30:59.117 --> 00:31:00.397 talked about this the other night, 00:31:01.037 --> 00:31:04.737 that idea of people want to move back to a print publication because they can 00:31:04.737 --> 00:31:12.037 actually finish it and it's not pinging and changing and streaming and all sorts and I see that. 00:31:13.555 --> 00:31:17.835 That kind of ethos if you like across media 00:31:17.835 --> 00:31:21.035 it's like let's just try and slow 00:31:21.035 --> 00:31:23.895 this down a little bit yeah which is why i like i mean i do love 00:31:23.895 --> 00:31:26.875 blogging and whatever else and i love the blog format and 00:31:26.875 --> 00:31:29.675 i wrote some point earlier in 2024 that 00:31:29.675 --> 00:31:32.715 i wanted blogging to come back in 2024 i'm not 00:31:32.715 --> 00:31:36.335 sure we've quite got there yet but it's it's there um 00:31:36.335 --> 00:31:39.155 but it's a slower way 00:31:39.155 --> 00:31:42.415 of looking that stuff i just think there's a general well 00:31:42.415 --> 00:31:45.475 i don't think blogging is but i think newsletters are and i think which 00:31:45.475 --> 00:31:49.495 is why i'm doing it the addition they can complement each other but look 00:31:49.495 --> 00:31:52.195 we don't sort of want to constantly repeat ourselves with 00:31:52.195 --> 00:31:55.435 i say of you need to have lots of revenue streams etc etc 00:31:55.435 --> 00:31:58.695 etc that's all true but it 00:31:58.695 --> 00:32:02.375 is a really important balancing act 00:32:02.375 --> 00:32:05.435 between passion and profit and i think that's what our whole conversation 00:32:05.435 --> 00:32:08.235 has been about so I hope 00:32:08.235 --> 00:32:11.095 in 2025 people are better at finding 00:32:11.095 --> 00:32:14.175 that balance because we know from the sub stackers and 00:32:14.175 --> 00:32:17.695 so on there are audiences there for 00:32:17.695 --> 00:32:23.735 projects that are based on someone's passion and their individual voice but 00:32:23.735 --> 00:32:27.775 we also know that there is a limit you know you can't subscribe to every sub 00:32:27.775 --> 00:32:35.095 stack newsletter you like and so I keep saying this but the truth is it's all a balancing act right. 00:32:37.835 --> 00:32:44.595 Well I think from a creator or a publisher's point of view it's about finding your people, 00:32:45.155 --> 00:32:50.515 so find your people find whether you call it a thousand truth lands whether 00:32:50.515 --> 00:32:54.635 you call it being famous to the family whether you call it a niche whether you 00:32:54.635 --> 00:33:00.535 call it a community you've got to find the people that your stuff resonates with them, 00:33:02.135 --> 00:33:05.995 and you know hopefully that's a big enough group of people that you can turn 00:33:05.995 --> 00:33:09.855 it into a living or you can turn at least turn it into a profit. 00:33:11.615 --> 00:33:16.015 Um and an important thing and you've slightly touched on this but you're not 00:33:16.015 --> 00:33:20.935 going all the way you also have to know when to stop and that i think is really 00:33:20.935 --> 00:33:21.955 really hard for creators. 00:33:23.655 --> 00:33:28.355 Well, yeah, definitely. It was kind of heartbreaking to decide not to print 00:33:28.355 --> 00:33:31.395 Grub Street again in October when we said we would. 00:33:33.015 --> 00:33:37.975 Yet. You haven't published number five yet. Well, we were going to do it. 00:33:38.115 --> 00:33:39.615 We had it scheduled for October. 00:33:39.915 --> 00:33:43.715 Sure. And we just decided, nah, there's no real... 00:33:44.235 --> 00:33:48.195 I've still got hundreds of back copies that I'm going to sell, 00:33:48.335 --> 00:33:50.135 so, you know, making a new one. 00:33:50.255 --> 00:33:56.935 If I was making... I don't know. If I was making shoes and I'd made a bunch 00:33:56.935 --> 00:34:01.675 of shoes that I hadn't sold, I wouldn't go back out and make another design 00:34:01.675 --> 00:34:04.415 of my shoes until I'd sold the other ones, right? 00:34:05.435 --> 00:34:12.495 Creators have this weird imperative that you've got to have a new edition, a new issue. 00:34:13.615 --> 00:34:19.075 Grub Street is pretty much evergreen. The content is pretty much evergreen. 00:34:19.255 --> 00:34:22.815 So we'll sell the back copies. and hopefully if we sell the back copies quick 00:34:22.815 --> 00:34:31.655 enough we can use that to publish issue 5 and if that doesn't encourage you to go and buy buy, 00:34:33.255 --> 00:34:39.795 I just don't know what will yeah well we're going to start doing some bundles and stuff as well. 00:34:42.195 --> 00:34:46.535 You don't get free PR on the show but I am going to tell people to go to grubstreetjournal.com 00:34:46.535 --> 00:34:50.915 and you can check it all out there where else can people keep up with you Peter 00:34:50.915 --> 00:34:53.475 I've loved this conversation. We could chat for hours. 00:34:54.435 --> 00:35:01.315 I've just moved to Blue Sky. Yes. I have been on Twitter for ages for obvious reasons. 00:35:02.435 --> 00:35:06.735 For reasons none of us should ever spend any time talking about anymore. 00:35:08.095 --> 00:35:14.135 Yeah. So who are you on Blue Sky? That's a really good question. 00:35:15.975 --> 00:35:19.235 I'm just checking. It's always good to know your own handle. 00:35:19.235 --> 00:35:21.955 You are magazine diaries.com yeah i was 00:35:21.955 --> 00:35:24.855 gonna say i'm actually at magazine diaries.com which 00:35:24.855 --> 00:35:28.595 is lovely and and 00:35:28.595 --> 00:35:33.535 magazine diaries.com is where you can sign up for the sub stack exactly so that's 00:35:33.535 --> 00:35:39.095 all where p2 is i'm at charlotte a henry across uh social media so i hope you 00:35:39.095 --> 00:35:43.835 find me on all those places i really really hope you sign up to at the edition.net 00:35:43.835 --> 00:35:45.535 for both the free and the paid, 00:35:46.875 --> 00:35:49.875 subscription because frankly it is the paid subscription that 00:35:49.875 --> 00:35:52.735 keeps this show on the road and means i can keep making more 00:35:52.735 --> 00:35:55.515 podcasts more newsletters more blog 00:35:55.515 --> 00:36:00.995 posts in 2025 so that's the edition.net peter thank you so much it's always 00:36:00.995 --> 00:36:05.735 such a joy it was a you know you and i can have rambling conversations about 00:36:05.735 --> 00:36:11.575 the media i feel like this is just you recording a conversation that you and 00:36:11.575 --> 00:36:13.355 I probably would have had in the pub anyway. 00:36:14.415 --> 00:36:17.555 Well, sometimes that's what you need from a podcast episode. 00:36:17.855 --> 00:36:21.795 I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope listeners have too. And I'll see you all next week. 00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:30.700 Music.