WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.680 Music. 00:00:09.527 --> 00:00:14.667 And welcome to the edition podcast. I hope my American listeners are recovering 00:00:14.667 --> 00:00:16.887 from huge Thanksgiving meals. 00:00:17.147 --> 00:00:21.427 I wanted to give you something to listen to as you lie semi-comatose, 00:00:21.607 --> 00:00:25.387 full of turkey or to duck in that I saw in the NFL last night. 00:00:25.667 --> 00:00:30.787 Anyway, today I am joined by the political editor of The New European, 00:00:31.267 --> 00:00:36.407 also a fantastic tech journalist and author, and also, as will become highly 00:00:36.407 --> 00:00:40.107 relevant in this conversation, a former Guardian journalist, James Ball. Hello. 00:00:40.987 --> 00:00:43.907 Pleasure to be here. I'm really pleased to have you back. Now, 00:00:44.047 --> 00:00:47.127 the reason I say that it's important that you are a former Guardian journalist, 00:00:47.327 --> 00:00:50.947 as well as the many other attributes you have and hats you wear, 00:00:51.067 --> 00:00:57.487 is because I really want to talk about the proposed takeover of The Observer, 00:00:57.647 --> 00:01:02.227 the Sunday sister paper of The Guardian, owned by the same people, 00:01:03.047 --> 00:01:09.627 but defiantly independent, as they always like to tell us, and defiantly separate to the Guardian. 00:01:09.927 --> 00:01:15.627 So there's this story that Tortoise Media have wanted to take over the Observer 00:01:15.627 --> 00:01:19.247 and the Guardian seem to be open to this deal. 00:01:19.407 --> 00:01:22.307 The Scott Trust, which oversees the Guardian and the Observer, 00:01:22.447 --> 00:01:24.067 seem to be open to this deal. 00:01:24.667 --> 00:01:28.227 So let's cut right to it. James Ball, what's your take? Yeah. 00:01:29.026 --> 00:01:34.966 Sam, I think this is a good bet for the Observer as a brand and the Observer 00:01:34.966 --> 00:01:37.986 as a publication, but a bad bet for its staff. 00:01:38.346 --> 00:01:43.226 And so, you know, in a way, I think everyone is acting rationally. 00:01:43.226 --> 00:01:50.666 I think it is sensible for the Guardian, for the Scott Trust to want to sell the Observer. 00:01:51.026 --> 00:01:55.266 It is, I think, a good idea for Tortoise to want to buy it. 00:01:55.446 --> 00:02:02.686 I think it is a gamble, but it's one that makes sense to me and I think gives the Observer a chance. 00:02:02.786 --> 00:02:08.346 You know, it's the only sort of truly liberal Sunday newspaper that's left. 00:02:08.806 --> 00:02:11.826 It's the oldest Sunday newspaper in the world. 00:02:11.826 --> 00:02:14.906 It deserves to be a standalone 00:02:14.906 --> 00:02:17.846 vibrant thing in its own right and the guardian has 00:02:17.846 --> 00:02:20.886 sort of smothered it ever since it's bought it 00:02:20.886 --> 00:02:23.926 it's never quite been willing to let it flourish it doesn't 00:02:23.926 --> 00:02:27.406 have its own web presence and it's been starved of resources um 00:02:27.406 --> 00:02:30.166 so you know you've got that side of 00:02:30.166 --> 00:02:32.926 it but for the staff it is a 00:02:32.926 --> 00:02:35.826 very very much a safer bet to stay 00:02:35.826 --> 00:02:39.106 where they are the guardian loses 400 000 00:02:39.106 --> 00:02:42.306 pounds a week but it can't do 00:02:42.306 --> 00:02:45.226 anything about that just repeat that number because it's staggering 00:02:45.226 --> 00:02:48.526 the guardian loses about 400 000 00:02:48.526 --> 00:02:51.366 pounds a week but because of 00:02:51.366 --> 00:02:54.406 the way it works it can't do things 00:02:54.406 --> 00:02:57.806 that other newspapers would like lay off staff and 00:02:57.806 --> 00:03:03.426 so to try and actually make itself financially sustainable is a bit of a nightmare 00:03:03.426 --> 00:03:07.926 especially because a lot of the journalists look and say well there's a billion 00:03:07.926 --> 00:03:12.466 pounds in the bank we we can afford to lose that now it's all a bit more complicated 00:03:12.466 --> 00:03:15.006 in practice explain why there's a billion pounds in the bank. 00:03:15.811 --> 00:03:20.411 So, most newspapers exist to make money for their owners. 00:03:20.971 --> 00:03:24.751 We might want there to be a higher purpose as the hacks that work for them or 00:03:24.751 --> 00:03:28.671 work with them, but they exist for the owner. 00:03:29.171 --> 00:03:35.751 The Guardian is the opposite. Since the mid-20th century, its owner exists to 00:03:35.751 --> 00:03:40.131 preserve the Guardian for perpetuity, but crucially only the Guardian. 00:03:40.131 --> 00:03:40.851 And that's the Scott Trust, right? 00:03:41.031 --> 00:03:45.111 Yes, it's the Scott Trust, which used to be a trust and is now a limited company, 00:03:45.111 --> 00:03:52.011 but that's minutiae but the guard the scott trust used to own a bunch of other stuff. 00:03:52.651 --> 00:03:56.031 Crucially it used to own auto trader yes 00:03:56.031 --> 00:03:59.091 and auto trader adapted to the internet a 00:03:59.091 --> 00:04:02.111 lot better than most media companies did you know 00:04:02.111 --> 00:04:05.051 it used to be this print magazine full of classified adverts for 00:04:05.051 --> 00:04:08.251 cars they made a very good online 00:04:08.251 --> 00:04:10.991 sort of website one of the first places you 00:04:10.991 --> 00:04:14.351 could buy cars online and it sold for hundreds 00:04:14.351 --> 00:04:17.111 of millions the guardian also used to 00:04:17.111 --> 00:04:20.011 valuable asset it was um it was the 00:04:20.011 --> 00:04:22.971 guardian's former ceo became ceo through his good 00:04:22.971 --> 00:04:28.111 stewardship of auto trader and put that in the guardian also had a joint venture 00:04:28.111 --> 00:04:33.291 with uh owning emap uh and owned a bunch of magazines it used to own the manchester 00:04:33.291 --> 00:04:38.111 evening news and there was always a tension here because if you were a media 00:04:38.111 --> 00:04:40.791 publication owned by The Guardian that wasn't The Guardian, 00:04:41.191 --> 00:04:43.491 you weren't in that protective bubble. 00:04:43.751 --> 00:04:45.871 You weren't the point of the whole exercise. 00:04:46.831 --> 00:04:50.411 And generally, one by one, The Guardian sold off these assets, 00:04:50.631 --> 00:04:52.231 usually at quite good prices, 00:04:53.131 --> 00:04:59.611 and essentially has this trust fund of a little over a billion that is an investment 00:04:59.611 --> 00:05:02.131 fund that is designed to protect The Guardian, 00:05:02.351 --> 00:05:07.611 which, despite talk of its turnarounds, it's never really made much of a profit 00:05:07.611 --> 00:05:10.411 and it is back to being quite heavily loss making. 00:05:11.391 --> 00:05:15.751 But its issue is its newsroom doesn't see the losses as real. 00:05:15.991 --> 00:05:18.951 They don't think the Guardian's an existential threat. 00:05:19.311 --> 00:05:24.491 They don't see a need to reform. And there's a strong union at the Guardian, 00:05:24.811 --> 00:05:28.931 which is well liked at the paper. 00:05:29.171 --> 00:05:33.071 They've got very good employment rights. It's an older newsroom than most places 00:05:33.071 --> 00:05:38.791 because essentially you only leave the Guardian if you want to. 00:05:38.791 --> 00:05:41.651 They have a long running agreement not 00:05:41.651 --> 00:05:44.471 to do compulsory redundancies they've never done them 00:05:44.471 --> 00:05:47.811 almost no one ever gets fired um you 00:05:47.811 --> 00:05:50.571 know it's got to be extremely bad behavior to 00:05:50.571 --> 00:05:53.631 be fired and so it is 00:05:53.631 --> 00:05:56.851 a very safe bet it is one of the very last jobs 00:05:56.851 --> 00:05:59.651 for life and so when the 00:05:59.651 --> 00:06:02.471 guardian is trying to cut costs the only thing it can do is 00:06:02.471 --> 00:06:05.911 offer voluntary redundancies and what 00:06:05.911 --> 00:06:08.931 happens is it ends up offering those about 00:06:08.931 --> 00:06:11.871 every 18 months to two years and two groups take 00:06:11.871 --> 00:06:15.251 them it's people in their 30s who have 00:06:15.251 --> 00:06:22.131 got another job lined up so the guardian pays people 30 000 plus pounds to go 00:06:22.131 --> 00:06:27.651 get another job for arrival um or it's people who are going to retire because 00:06:27.651 --> 00:06:31.591 no one retires at the guardian until there's a voluntary redundancy round going 00:06:31.591 --> 00:06:34.171 because then they've got 20 years service, 00:06:34.471 --> 00:06:38.811 and it's a payment that can be up to about $125,000 to retire. 00:06:39.491 --> 00:06:44.571 And so the Guardian doesn't lose anyone that it wouldn't already lose, 00:06:44.711 --> 00:06:46.851 but it does pay them a fortune to do it. 00:06:47.231 --> 00:06:53.211 And it's done that for about 20 years now, unbroken as a pattern. 00:06:53.571 --> 00:06:58.571 And so if it's looking at how can we actually reduce cost, 00:06:58.891 --> 00:07:01.831 it needs to look at something like 00:07:01.831 --> 00:07:07.671 closing or selling the observer because it doesn't have other options and closing 00:07:07.671 --> 00:07:13.551 the newspaper would inevitably result in huge strikes so the fact someone wants 00:07:13.551 --> 00:07:18.791 to buy it actually you can see what's in it for them when they have almost no 00:07:18.791 --> 00:07:20.851 other ways of cutting costs well, 00:07:21.807 --> 00:07:25.647 There have been strikes, though. The newsrooms at both The Guardian and The 00:07:25.647 --> 00:07:27.947 Observer have gone on strike in response to this. 00:07:28.347 --> 00:07:34.867 They've voted to strike. They are due to strike next week. They are doing it as fast as possible. 00:07:35.227 --> 00:07:40.907 You know, this is not a union who's sort of saber-rattling or firing warning shots. 00:07:41.147 --> 00:07:46.527 No. They are doing a 48-hour strike, which is intended to be as disruptive as possible. 00:07:46.847 --> 00:07:50.487 It's quite easy to... So that's two print newspapers, maybe three even, 00:07:50.487 --> 00:07:55.747 newspapers that get killed more importantly arguably to the guardian that is 00:07:55.747 --> 00:08:01.967 two to three days of web traffic that crashes with no new content. 00:08:03.007 --> 00:08:10.187 It would be except they are obviously management is noting that in this era 00:08:10.187 --> 00:08:14.347 of remote work people who would like to continue working can do so without going 00:08:14.347 --> 00:08:16.367 to the office there's lots of 00:08:16.507 --> 00:08:19.847 You have to break a digital picket line, not a physical one. 00:08:20.027 --> 00:08:22.967 Yes, you don't have to cross a physical picket line. 00:08:23.187 --> 00:08:28.847 There's also newsrooms in America and Australia that have their own union arrangements 00:08:28.847 --> 00:08:32.507 and now which mostly don't know people in London. 00:08:33.007 --> 00:08:34.987 Australia is now mostly staffed by Australians. 00:08:35.767 --> 00:08:39.167 America is mostly staffed by Americans. They have very different cultures. 00:08:39.527 --> 00:08:42.407 They don't know what the observer is, really. 00:08:43.147 --> 00:08:45.987 My understanding at the moment is both of 00:08:45.987 --> 00:08:53.027 those newsrooms will be working and so between senior managers um agency copy 00:08:53.027 --> 00:08:58.747 and the other newsrooms it won't be it to its usual standard it won't be to 00:08:58.747 --> 00:09:02.167 the quality they can keep the show on the world but my understanding is management's 00:09:02.167 --> 00:09:04.647 quite confident it could actually get papers out. 00:09:05.576 --> 00:09:08.616 That in a way doesn't help the dispute the level 00:09:08.616 --> 00:09:11.476 of anger is incredibly high the union hasn't just 00:09:11.476 --> 00:09:14.656 announced strikes it's announced no confidence 00:09:14.656 --> 00:09:17.856 in the scott trust which is quite a 00:09:17.856 --> 00:09:22.816 nuclear button to press very early kath viner the editor of the guardian is 00:09:22.816 --> 00:09:29.756 on the scott trust sure and so it is very very clearly an escalatory step it's 00:09:29.756 --> 00:09:34.936 also a very guardian step because the scott trust is required by its sort of 00:09:34.936 --> 00:09:36.756 constitution to own the Guardian. 00:09:37.596 --> 00:09:41.336 So they're stuck together. It's codependent. It's not like sort of saying, 00:09:41.576 --> 00:09:46.176 you know, if you're owned by Rupert Murdoch, we have no confidence in Rupert 00:09:46.176 --> 00:09:47.796 Murdoch. We think he should sell it. 00:09:47.996 --> 00:09:53.896 It's saying we are owned by the Scott Trust, but we think these 13 idiots who run it are bad people. 00:09:54.236 --> 00:09:57.056 Including our editor, including our boss. Including our editor. 00:09:57.336 --> 00:10:00.056 I mean, they have voted no confidence in the Scott Trust. 00:10:00.216 --> 00:10:02.936 They have essentially voted no confidence in the editor of their 00:10:02.936 --> 00:10:05.696 newsroom and they know that and she 00:10:05.696 --> 00:10:08.736 knows that and so it is an 00:10:08.736 --> 00:10:13.456 incredibly charged affair um but 00:10:13.456 --> 00:10:17.836 it it's a you know essentially if 00:10:17.836 --> 00:10:21.136 you are at the guardian you are used the kind 00:10:21.136 --> 00:10:23.896 of person who values job security stays at the guardian the 00:10:23.896 --> 00:10:27.276 kind of person who values risk taking and innovation 00:10:27.276 --> 00:10:33.076 and trying to sort of take a big gamble and do something new leaves you know 00:10:33.076 --> 00:10:38.496 you you do not stay there if you want to work for a startup and so i can see 00:10:38.496 --> 00:10:47.096 why for the staffers the the option of going to somewhere like tortoise absolutely doesn't appeal but. 00:10:48.058 --> 00:10:52.798 In another sense, you can see why if you looked at this as sort of with a cool 00:10:52.798 --> 00:10:56.258 media analyst head, The Observer has no digital brand. 00:10:56.638 --> 00:11:01.218 All of the other major newspaper groups have a Sunday newspaper already and 00:11:01.218 --> 00:11:05.898 wouldn't want to tupee over another one that's got a relatively low circulation, 00:11:06.198 --> 00:11:10.118 doesn't have its own commercial teams and has quite an expensive staff base 00:11:10.118 --> 00:11:12.118 relative to their own. Sure. 00:11:12.618 --> 00:11:15.658 Why they'd want to bring it over. you need someone who doesn't 00:11:15.658 --> 00:11:18.538 have a sunday paper who has a reason to want 00:11:18.538 --> 00:11:21.278 to do it you know in tortoise you've got a 00:11:21.278 --> 00:11:24.038 very very talented editor in james harding you've got some 00:11:24.038 --> 00:11:27.358 brilliant audio producers they've produced some 00:11:27.358 --> 00:11:32.878 fantastic scoops they need a brand to build around because audio isn't enough 00:11:32.878 --> 00:11:37.818 to build a subspace and a membership so there is a really compelling case yes 00:11:37.818 --> 00:11:42.878 let's i want to come to the case of why tortoise want it because that's a really 00:11:42.878 --> 00:11:44.718 interesting dynamic in all of this. 00:11:45.078 --> 00:11:48.878 I just want to come back to a couple of issues within the Guardian slash Observer, 00:11:48.998 --> 00:11:52.758 because you've said a couple of times that the Observer does not have its own 00:11:52.758 --> 00:11:55.378 digital brand, and you're absolutely right about that. 00:11:55.538 --> 00:11:59.218 If you want to find an Observer store, you go to guardian.co.uk. 00:11:59.758 --> 00:12:04.498 And you can't really tell on the website if it was published on a Sunday in 00:12:04.498 --> 00:12:08.738 the Observer or a Saturday or a Wednesday in the Guardian. 00:12:09.098 --> 00:12:12.638 There's no observer.co.uk for that. 00:12:12.638 --> 00:12:17.218 It looks particularly weird if you're not British and you don't really know 00:12:17.218 --> 00:12:21.358 that The Observer is a Sunday newspaper because The Guardian will just, on the website, 00:12:21.698 --> 00:12:25.858 it looks like The Guardian just sometimes runs two contradictory reviews of 00:12:25.858 --> 00:12:32.098 the same album or movie or theatre show where one person loves it and the other 00:12:32.098 --> 00:12:33.538 doesn't, or book reviews. 00:12:33.938 --> 00:12:37.298 It is invisible as an online brand. 00:12:37.718 --> 00:12:40.098 Was that a conscious choice? Why did that happen? 00:12:40.892 --> 00:12:44.952 It was deliberate. I think at one point, the Observer was less keen than the 00:12:44.952 --> 00:12:49.952 Guardian to jump online and experiment, but the Guardian didn't want to compete with itself. 00:12:50.872 --> 00:12:56.852 And essentially, this has always been the kind of simmering view that if the 00:12:56.852 --> 00:13:00.772 Guardian sort of boosted the Observer, it would be creating another rival to 00:13:00.772 --> 00:13:03.272 its own website instead of agglomerating the traffic. 00:13:03.272 --> 00:13:08.832 And so the vision for a long time was to sort of keep the Observer name but 00:13:08.832 --> 00:13:11.892 turn the news organisation into a seven-day operation. 00:13:12.292 --> 00:13:16.012 If you walk into a newsagent or a supermarket on a Sunday you don't see The 00:13:16.012 --> 00:13:18.432 Guardian, there is on the newsstands The Observer. 00:13:18.952 --> 00:13:22.932 Yes and it has a different history, it has a slightly different readership. 00:13:23.892 --> 00:13:27.252 What's the editorial newsroom difference? Explain that to people, 00:13:27.352 --> 00:13:28.732 you've been in the heart of the newsroom. 00:13:29.072 --> 00:13:32.212 So The Observer has had a smaller 00:13:32.212 --> 00:13:35.312 and smaller team but has absolutely fought 00:13:35.312 --> 00:13:39.152 and i think succeeded in keeping a distinct identity its 00:13:39.152 --> 00:13:42.092 politics coverage is separate its arts its culture its 00:13:42.092 --> 00:13:46.632 comment sections are all separate it has its own feature writers and sort of 00:13:46.632 --> 00:13:52.092 ethos a lot of the other bits of the newsroom have been sort of slowly integrated 00:13:52.092 --> 00:13:58.492 often against the observer's will so a lot of its news run is now sort of just 00:13:58.492 --> 00:14:01.572 shared with the Guardian News team. It's sports is the same. 00:14:02.452 --> 00:14:09.092 It's sort of slowly kept having bits of its own team lopped off and just been 00:14:09.092 --> 00:14:11.032 told to sort of dip on the Guardian pool. 00:14:11.192 --> 00:14:17.532 Because the Observer editor is, you know, we heard would leave in the autumn. 00:14:19.710 --> 00:14:23.250 So what's Kath Viner's role? Paul Mulholland. 00:14:24.390 --> 00:14:28.150 It was Paul Webster, wasn't it? Paul Webster. John Mulholland left a while ago. 00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:30.410 That's right. There's been a couple of Pauls and Johns. 00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:33.430 Yeah, Paul Webster, John Mulholland was his predecessor. 00:14:34.710 --> 00:14:39.110 Yes. And then therefore, what is Kath Viner's overseeing role in that? 00:14:39.910 --> 00:14:42.790 So The Guardian has always been quite pedantic about this. 00:14:43.030 --> 00:14:46.870 Editor-in-chief means that you are first among editors. 00:14:46.870 --> 00:14:49.750 There's a lot of editors seem to just add 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:52.610 in chief to their title now even if they only 00:14:52.610 --> 00:14:55.370 manage one newspaper which is a little bit 00:14:55.370 --> 00:14:58.470 of title inflation alan rusbridge was editor 00:14:58.470 --> 00:15:01.570 of the guardian and editor-in-chief of the guardian and observer 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.570 which meant he could it's essentially 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:08.970 first among editors um and there 00:15:08.970 --> 00:15:12.150 were very very few sort of overt clashes 00:15:12.150 --> 00:15:15.870 the observer is generally allowed to do its own thing um 00:15:15.870 --> 00:15:19.070 but if it comes down to it the editor of the guardian could 00:15:19.070 --> 00:15:22.230 overrule the editor of the observer and so 00:15:22.230 --> 00:15:27.750 there was one instance during snowden for example where the observer ran a declare 00:15:27.750 --> 00:15:32.610 your interest please uh i i worked on the snowden story for the guardian the 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:37.430 observer ran a story which people wrongly thought was part of the snowden archives 00:15:37.430 --> 00:15:40.150 and which had a quite dubious source. 00:15:40.990 --> 00:15:46.190 And Alan used his authority as editor-in-chief to have the story taken offline 00:15:46.190 --> 00:15:50.710 because those of us on the Snowden team didn't back the reporting. 00:15:51.530 --> 00:15:54.890 The Observer, though, was allowed 00:15:54.890 --> 00:16:01.450 to sort of show its independence by standing by the story in print. 00:16:01.450 --> 00:16:07.250 It essentially ran a clarification the following week saying it wasn't from 00:16:07.250 --> 00:16:12.690 the Snowden Archive and it was an independent source and that the Guardian editor-in-chief 00:16:12.690 --> 00:16:14.770 had decided to take it offline, 00:16:15.550 --> 00:16:19.790 but clarifying that they stood by it in print and didn't retract it, 00:16:19.930 --> 00:16:22.930 which is a very Guardian-observer compromise. 00:16:23.090 --> 00:16:27.290 Very, very, very. I think it does show that the distinction is real. 00:16:27.570 --> 00:16:30.510 And even, you know, Alan Rusbridger, at the height of his powers, 00:16:30.510 --> 00:16:36.990 18 years into his editorship, did allow that to happen and did allow that degree of independence. 00:16:37.310 --> 00:16:41.870 For most people, though, this sounds just like pedantic lefty newsroom nonsense, 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:43.270 if you don't mind me saying. 00:16:43.590 --> 00:16:46.130 I mean, it is pedantic lefty newsroom nonsense. 00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:48.950 And so... 00:16:49.697 --> 00:16:53.297 But I think that, and actually it's a brilliant example, gives an indication 00:16:53.297 --> 00:16:58.857 of where we've got to now with a very pissed off newsroom from two different newspapers. 00:17:00.977 --> 00:17:08.217 What could turn into a really nasty Labour dispute, and a start-up run by a 00:17:08.217 --> 00:17:14.137 former editor of the Times, desperate to try and take over this historical lefty newspaper. 00:17:14.137 --> 00:17:21.837 I mean, so The Guardian and The Observer are both liberal newspapers rather than lefty. 00:17:22.757 --> 00:17:26.377 Some within The Guardian especially would dispute that, but their tradition... 00:17:26.377 --> 00:17:28.517 Yeah, I might have an argument with that, but okay. 00:17:28.717 --> 00:17:33.517 Their tradition and their history is firmly the liberal tradition and not the socialist tradition. 00:17:35.257 --> 00:17:38.317 We'll debate that off, Mike. Those who look into that would get it, 00:17:38.377 --> 00:17:39.557 you know, over a drink sometime. 00:17:39.817 --> 00:17:43.597 But The Observer in particular is not a lefty newspaper. Fine. 00:17:43.597 --> 00:17:46.837 It has always tacked to the right of the Guardian. 00:17:47.277 --> 00:17:50.617 It's always, it is probably left of centre overall. 00:17:50.897 --> 00:17:55.977 I think most sort of socialists in the UK would not regard the Observer as comrades, 00:17:56.297 --> 00:17:58.537 even if they would say the Staff are. 00:17:59.917 --> 00:18:06.037 You do have this situation where there is something of a lose-lose, 00:18:06.157 --> 00:18:09.517 sadly, for the observer in one sense, or for the staff, 00:18:09.757 --> 00:18:15.237 because the Guardian do not want to keep it and do not regard it as affordable, 00:18:15.237 --> 00:18:17.817 and they are unlikely to reward it. 00:18:19.035 --> 00:18:21.935 Uh being kept being sort of kept with 00:18:21.935 --> 00:18:24.695 an asset they don't want an asset they don't see as an 00:18:24.695 --> 00:18:27.935 asset you know in practical 00:18:27.935 --> 00:18:31.355 terms the guardian is effectively looking 00:18:31.355 --> 00:18:34.755 to give tortoise money indirectly to 00:18:34.755 --> 00:18:37.375 take the observer off its hands explain that i could. 00:18:37.375 --> 00:18:41.055 It there is not my understanding 00:18:41.055 --> 00:18:43.795 of the deal is that the the tortoise wouldn't be 00:18:43.795 --> 00:18:46.695 paying anything for the observer instead they 00:18:46.695 --> 00:18:49.555 would be agreeing to take responsibility for i 00:18:49.555 --> 00:18:52.955 think it's 73 staff uh transferred 00:18:52.955 --> 00:18:56.055 across it's a process called two peeing on their 00:18:56.055 --> 00:18:58.895 existing contracts um which as 00:18:58.895 --> 00:19:02.435 you pointed out already quite expensive yes um 00:19:02.435 --> 00:19:05.215 the money the money that they are raising is 00:19:05.215 --> 00:19:08.695 essentially to show that they could afford to do that and 00:19:08.695 --> 00:19:12.215 afford to invest and run the observer initially at 00:19:12.215 --> 00:19:14.935 a loss for several years so it's not 00:19:14.935 --> 00:19:18.055 money to to buy it so what 00:19:18.055 --> 00:19:21.275 what the guardian gets out of it is losing the 00:19:21.275 --> 00:19:25.455 staff from its payroll now because tortoise 00:19:25.455 --> 00:19:29.495 needs to raise the money to do that because they want various guarantees there 00:19:29.495 --> 00:19:32.735 are sort of there has been reporting saying 00:19:32.735 --> 00:19:35.655 that if people don't want to move to 00:19:35.655 --> 00:19:39.155 the uh to tortoise um the 00:19:39.155 --> 00:19:43.015 guard uh scott trust would pay out redundancy that's 00:19:43.015 --> 00:19:47.235 i haven't confirmed that myself but that essentially would mean they they would 00:19:47.235 --> 00:19:53.255 be giving redundancy payouts and reducing tortoise's cost for taking it on um 00:19:53.255 --> 00:20:00.035 i suspect if the sale goes through the union may try and push for people to 00:20:00.035 --> 00:20:02.635 have the chance to opt out of transferring over. 00:20:03.575 --> 00:20:08.355 So for them to have a right to stay that would be a very Guardian compromise 00:20:08.355 --> 00:20:12.575 where they essentially lose the brand but don't save the money but that's the 00:20:12.575 --> 00:20:15.215 kind of place that these end up in but, 00:20:16.020 --> 00:20:19.560 In the situation that the union wins and they keep the Observer, 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.360 I don't see a world where the Scott Trust turns around and goes, 00:20:23.540 --> 00:20:27.480 OK, well, let's invest a fortune in it, give it its own digital presence, 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:29.420 make it a proper newsroom. That's not happening. 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.560 Even if they don't punish it, and I think there's a chance that it would be 00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:39.360 punished for sort of undermining the chances of a much, you know, 00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:44.500 for what for the trustees is a much needed sale and a much needed reprieve for the finances. 00:20:44.500 --> 00:20:49.760 I think even they probably couldn't then fight the union to close it. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:56.080 And so it would face years more of sort of a death by a thousand costs and starvation of resources. 00:20:56.840 --> 00:20:59.080 Let's just unpack why Tortoise wants 00:20:59.080 --> 00:21:04.260 it a bit more, because I find this fascinating. Tortoise is a startup. 00:21:05.040 --> 00:21:10.880 It featured, you know, its whole shtick was slow news. It was a website at first 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:18.480 and has then become a more audio-focused publication outlet. 00:21:18.840 --> 00:21:21.460 That's really what it does now with some brilliant podcasts. 00:21:22.260 --> 00:21:26.720 There's some really fantastic stuff that Tortoise puts out. 00:21:28.820 --> 00:21:33.400 But first of all, it's always been digitally focused. And now it wants to buy 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.400 a very old Sunday newspaper. 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:42.780 And everything I've read about this, we don't particularly have any indications 00:21:42.780 --> 00:21:45.360 that it wants to stop the printing presses. 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:50.140 I believe it's a condition that it doesn't. Right, exactly. 00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:55.120 But, you know, let's get a whole list of my conflicts of interest here. 00:21:55.260 --> 00:22:00.500 So I've written for The Observer, including recently. I've written for The Guardian, including recently. 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.160 I've worked for Tortoise. I wrote for it when it did websites. 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:09.560 I've produced, I've in fact been the on-air presenter of some of its podcast episodes. 00:22:11.420 --> 00:22:15.820 It's almost like I deliberately wanted you on the show. It's almost like I have a qualified guest. 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:20.100 But I do also, you know, the nearest I have to a day job is political editor 00:22:20.100 --> 00:22:26.300 of The New European, which is a newspaper that prints once a week and that launched in 2016. 00:22:26.780 --> 00:22:31.600 And has been fantastically successful despite all the tumult in British media. 00:22:31.600 --> 00:22:36.160 Yes, we are profitable. We could be more profitable. Please subscribe. 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:41.620 But we don't make a loss. We are committed to print. 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.160 We have a website. We have a paywall, controversially. 00:22:45.780 --> 00:22:51.140 So I work somewhere where I would say I think there is a future for print, 00:22:51.260 --> 00:22:54.680 especially for weekly print. Right. So Tortoise. 00:22:55.531 --> 00:22:59.711 Hasn't found a proposition that works for consumers. 00:23:00.051 --> 00:23:05.831 It is editorially brilliant. It is making money producing podcasts for other 00:23:05.831 --> 00:23:07.851 networks or doing distribution deals. 00:23:08.091 --> 00:23:13.771 So quite a few of its best podcasts are on the BBC now. It has a newsletter 00:23:13.771 --> 00:23:15.831 service, which seems to do quite well. 00:23:17.071 --> 00:23:22.091 You know, the people follow those. It's got some good young talent and it's 00:23:22.091 --> 00:23:24.731 got some very experienced editors and presenters. 00:23:24.731 --> 00:23:28.151 You know basher cummings alexi mostrous absolute 00:23:28.151 --> 00:23:31.411 standouts there absolutely right what it needs is 00:23:31.411 --> 00:23:34.831 something for all of that to coalesce around it's got 00:23:34.831 --> 00:23:37.771 brilliant flashes but it doesn't have the core of something 00:23:37.771 --> 00:23:40.551 where people can go here is a 00:23:40.551 --> 00:23:44.071 title here is not an offer that makes sense and 00:23:44.071 --> 00:23:47.791 so you take a newspaper and you've got the bundle and 00:23:47.791 --> 00:23:50.851 people valued a bundle you get arts and culture you 00:23:50.851 --> 00:23:53.911 get you know you would have had someone like jay rayner 00:23:53.911 --> 00:23:56.771 who would have been a huge asset for that i've resisted bringing 00:23:56.771 --> 00:23:59.851 that up but okay get people who you can bring in 00:23:59.851 --> 00:24:04.551 to sort of talk arts and culture who can talk food who can talk features you 00:24:04.551 --> 00:24:11.011 get a product to sort of build a bundle around and my understanding is they 00:24:11.011 --> 00:24:17.351 would actually minimize the tortoise brand and sort of centre it a bit more 00:24:17.351 --> 00:24:18.751 around the Observer brand. 00:24:18.951 --> 00:24:22.431 And the Observer is a brilliant brand. It's got this storied history. 00:24:22.751 --> 00:24:26.491 But you then start to have enough to build things around. 00:24:27.516 --> 00:24:32.596 I don't think that a bundled newspaper, you know, with games, 00:24:32.736 --> 00:24:39.136 with audio, with culture, with news, I think that is a viable and successful product. 00:24:39.336 --> 00:24:41.336 I think the US has really shown that. 00:24:41.556 --> 00:24:46.276 Yeah, I think especially weekly. You know, magazines are doing better than newspapers. 00:24:46.756 --> 00:24:51.696 Absolutely. And weekly newspapers. Private Eye, Spectator, the New European 00:24:51.696 --> 00:24:52.816 All in Profit. I'll declare my interest. 00:24:53.156 --> 00:24:56.716 I have often the privilege of writing for the Spectator. 00:24:56.716 --> 00:25:00.116 So you know the the new statesman sadly 00:25:00.116 --> 00:25:03.416 doesn't make a profit but has actually it's it's 00:25:03.416 --> 00:25:06.896 sort of subscription and circulation numbers are good weekly is 00:25:06.896 --> 00:25:09.736 a format that makes sense yes both to 00:25:09.736 --> 00:25:12.836 sort of structure a digital operation and to 00:25:12.836 --> 00:25:15.716 have a print product and so i can see 00:25:15.716 --> 00:25:18.576 tortoise sort of going we have the quality we 00:25:18.576 --> 00:25:21.496 have the talent if we bring in more people we have 00:25:21.496 --> 00:25:25.276 an offer that makes sense that we can build around i think 00:25:25.276 --> 00:25:28.656 it's an exciting thing for them it fills what 00:25:28.656 --> 00:25:32.036 it is a rare case where each it 00:25:32.036 --> 00:25:34.916 feels like the observer has half of a puzzle it's got 00:25:34.916 --> 00:25:38.276 a history it's got a print product it's got connections it's got arts it's got 00:25:38.276 --> 00:25:42.016 culture it's got some writers that people still really value absolutely it's 00:25:42.016 --> 00:25:46.596 got a brand and a following the observer's got digital it's got talent at the 00:25:46.596 --> 00:25:51.056 top level and at the young level and it has a need for some history and for 00:25:51.136 --> 00:25:52.596 some brand and for some story. 00:25:52.996 --> 00:25:58.916 They are two halves that fit together incredibly well in my view, but it would be a gamble. 00:25:59.176 --> 00:26:02.836 Any kind of startup like that, that will need the money, that will lose money 00:26:02.836 --> 00:26:05.976 for a time is a roll of the dice. 00:26:06.176 --> 00:26:10.296 I can absolutely see why the journalists there go, well, at the moment. 00:26:11.195 --> 00:26:15.995 As much as we are treated as a kind of second-class citizen within Guardian 00:26:15.995 --> 00:26:19.995 News and Media, as much as we are disillusioned with our bosses, 00:26:20.495 --> 00:26:23.175 I have a safe job that will pay my bills. 00:26:23.695 --> 00:26:25.955 I know they won't make me redundant. 00:26:28.215 --> 00:26:31.615 This isn't a startup coming and saying, do you want to join? 00:26:31.775 --> 00:26:34.455 This is me being pushed out against my will. 00:26:34.655 --> 00:26:38.275 I can absolutely see why they're angry and why they're worried. 00:26:38.275 --> 00:26:41.235 Yeah and why you might not trust what will happen 00:26:41.235 --> 00:26:43.915 in never mind okay so yes they have to 00:26:43.915 --> 00:26:46.655 keep the printing presses rolling for a while you never 00:26:46.655 --> 00:26:49.375 know what will happen there you never know who the new bosses will 00:26:49.375 --> 00:26:52.275 be you don't know who tortoise will get bought out by later 00:26:52.275 --> 00:26:55.415 on there's all sorts of different dynamics 00:26:55.415 --> 00:26:58.415 you go from the very very 00:26:58.415 --> 00:27:01.395 special status of being an employee of guardian news and 00:27:01.395 --> 00:27:04.195 media to being out in the much more 00:27:04.195 --> 00:27:07.275 ruthless commercial world and most people 00:27:07.275 --> 00:27:11.075 at the Guardian have been there a very long time and it's 00:27:11.075 --> 00:27:14.255 it's a very different world out there and I can see why they might not want 00:27:14.255 --> 00:27:20.895 to join it yes uh no I get it it's fascinating I mean I suspect this this this 00:27:20.895 --> 00:27:25.435 you know this is gonna this row is gonna rumble on for quite a while uh the 00:27:25.435 --> 00:27:29.695 bit I mean sorry no the bit I find with I don't think James Harding. 00:27:30.555 --> 00:27:35.915 Started tortoise because he wanted to edit a newspaper again no but I think you learn as 00:27:36.175 --> 00:27:39.455 you do things and i think he's probably come around to going 00:27:39.455 --> 00:27:42.675 well we tried having events at 00:27:42.675 --> 00:27:45.735 the core of the business and then covid happened and then 00:27:45.735 --> 00:27:48.535 covid happened and then they didn't really pursue that 00:27:48.535 --> 00:27:51.735 again we tried audio only and this 00:27:51.735 --> 00:27:54.455 doesn't seem to be enough to that to make a 00:27:54.455 --> 00:27:57.535 sort of compelling subscription offer and 00:27:57.535 --> 00:28:00.335 i think that makes sense you know if if you 00:28:00.335 --> 00:28:03.175 like a podcast you tend to discover it when the episodes are out 00:28:03.175 --> 00:28:07.835 you know you pay for it you might pay one month subscription binge it and then 00:28:07.835 --> 00:28:12.475 you you stop although sweet bobby is brilliant if you haven't listened to sweet 00:28:12.475 --> 00:28:16.675 bobby listen to this episode and then go listen to the whole of sweet bobby 00:28:16.675 --> 00:28:22.815 so it's on the bbc now though so you don't have to pay for it you know it is difficult to get. 00:28:23.555 --> 00:28:26.315 You can make some incredible content and they have 00:28:26.315 --> 00:28:29.475 you can monetize that content but you can't build 00:28:29.475 --> 00:28:32.375 the sort of flywheel you can't build the business model off 00:28:32.375 --> 00:28:35.395 it and so i think you know everything 00:28:35.395 --> 00:28:38.755 old is new again and i think they've i think 00:28:38.755 --> 00:28:41.575 they would want to do things very differently and they would have 00:28:41.575 --> 00:28:44.635 the chance to essentially build a newspaper from 00:28:44.635 --> 00:28:49.735 the ground up in some ways yes they'd have certainly rebuilding contracts with 00:28:49.735 --> 00:28:55.195 reach etc but they can decide what a 21st century newspaper would look like 00:28:55.195 --> 00:28:59.775 and that would be quite an exciting proposition yeah there's And you've talked 00:28:59.775 --> 00:29:03.815 a lot about the financial benefits to the Guardian of offloading the Observer. 00:29:04.355 --> 00:29:08.155 There's another theory I've heard. It was Peter Houston of Media Voices who 00:29:08.155 --> 00:29:09.475 I heard posit this theory. 00:29:11.259 --> 00:29:17.379 But daily print is hard. Of all the newspapers in the UK that might decide that 00:29:17.379 --> 00:29:21.019 daily print is not its future, The Guardian is top of the list. 00:29:21.179 --> 00:29:24.179 We know it prioritises digital, it's kept its paywall away. 00:29:24.579 --> 00:29:28.539 There's no paywall, it's asked for donations and similar membership things. 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.459 You can see a world in the not too distant future in 00:29:32.459 --> 00:29:35.719 which the guardian daily print edition does not exist and it drives you to its 00:29:35.719 --> 00:29:40.859 website yet they what does still work as you've alluded to yourself because 00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:45.619 you work for one of the publications that is proving this is weekly print people 00:29:45.619 --> 00:29:51.079 clearly are still liking that so you can see a world in which without the observer. 00:29:51.819 --> 00:29:55.039 Guardian news and media releases the. 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.879 Guardian weekend print edition which they cannot 00:29:57.879 --> 00:30:01.579 possibly do while they own the observer no they 00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:04.839 can't but they essentially do it in all but name the saturday guardian 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:08.059 is the golden child it is the only issue that meaningfully 00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:11.679 sells in print still it has vastly more 00:30:11.679 --> 00:30:14.659 resources than the observer it has the 00:30:14.659 --> 00:30:17.619 guardian don't audit their sale anymore so you you work 00:30:17.619 --> 00:30:20.539 off rumors but i am led to understand it 00:30:20.539 --> 00:30:23.359 sells about twice what the observer does it is 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:26.279 a very very good newspaper it is a very well 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.139 resourced newspaper uh and it is 00:30:29.139 --> 00:30:32.119 so this is given those and so there are already a 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.659 lot of people but the guardian a lot 00:30:35.659 --> 00:30:38.479 of people think the guardian should have stopped printing monday to 00:30:38.479 --> 00:30:41.639 friday at least 10 years ago right 00:30:41.639 --> 00:30:45.419 it is a fundamentally very conservative institution 00:30:45.419 --> 00:30:48.239 and they hate when you say this but 00:30:48.239 --> 00:30:51.479 it is people want very long careers 00:30:51.479 --> 00:30:54.499 there people stay there a long time because it 00:30:54.499 --> 00:30:57.639 has a large union and because no one ever leaves 00:30:57.639 --> 00:31:00.519 things need consensus you don't get 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.339 the kind of management just forcing through changes that you 00:31:03.339 --> 00:31:07.119 get in other newsrooms and so they you 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:10.139 know they have there is always a committee 00:31:10.139 --> 00:31:13.699 talking about getting rid of printing monday to friday there 00:31:13.699 --> 00:31:18.079 was in 2012 there was in 2014 that is going to happen and if the observer goes 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:22.759 it makes it much more likely that you know how the ft has the ft weekend fantastic. 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:28.599 Product you can see the world in which without the observer they have guardian 00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:32.719 online monday to fright well the whole time and then. 00:31:33.530 --> 00:31:37.630 The Guardian Weekend is what you buy in the shop. Nothing would have stopped 00:31:37.630 --> 00:31:40.950 the Guardians not selling Monday to Friday for years. 00:31:42.050 --> 00:31:46.190 Fundamentally, it has been the obvious option. So you're disagreeing with that theory? 00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:51.370 I'm agreeing and disagreeing in a sense. It is the obvious option, 00:31:51.470 --> 00:31:55.130 but it's been the obvious option for 15 years and they haven't done it. 00:31:55.150 --> 00:31:56.550 But doesn't selling the Observer make it easier? 00:31:56.950 --> 00:32:00.410 No. You would have had two weekly offers. You would have had something on the 00:32:00.410 --> 00:32:05.130 newsstands both days. If they sell the Observer, they will not be able to have 00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:07.430 a paper on the newsstand on Sunday. 00:32:07.710 --> 00:32:09.730 But you would because you would call it the Guardian Weekend. 00:32:09.770 --> 00:32:14.510 No, the deal will be that they cannot have a rival to it. 00:32:14.690 --> 00:32:18.730 This is in the clause for at least five years. 00:32:19.190 --> 00:32:22.690 Let's think about it, right? You would still print the Guardian on a Saturday. 00:32:22.830 --> 00:32:25.910 It could stay on the newsstand. No one's going to clear it off the newsstand. 00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:29.430 No, no, they are by requirement cleared off the newsstands. 00:32:30.510 --> 00:32:34.050 I'm cynical. newspapers are remaindered at the end of each day. 00:32:34.330 --> 00:32:39.670 It will be in the contract that The Guardian is remaindered at the end of a Saturday. 00:32:40.130 --> 00:32:44.750 But they essentially do it already. They compete with themselves at the weekend already. 00:32:44.970 --> 00:32:48.730 They could have just had two weekly newspapers and got rid of Monday to Friday. 00:32:49.270 --> 00:32:54.170 It is, I'm sure, in their plans to do it, but it's been in their plans to do 00:32:54.170 --> 00:32:58.370 it, and every time they back away because it's a conservative institution. 00:32:58.370 --> 00:33:02.790 Yeah, I can see a world in which Monday to Friday goes, but you have this Saturday 00:33:02.790 --> 00:33:07.930 offer that you pretend is not breaking the clause you rightly describe. 00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:12.750 Okay, so it disappears on a Sunday. All right, whatever. Everyone's bought it 00:33:12.750 --> 00:33:16.070 on the Saturday, who was still by the garden on a Saturday. 00:33:16.610 --> 00:33:19.750 And you can bulk it up a bit so people read it over the weekend anyway. 00:33:20.270 --> 00:33:23.650 If you're not printing Monday to Friday, you could even bulk up that Saturday offer. 00:33:25.550 --> 00:33:29.370 And tortoise print the Observer on a Sunday and you don't have to worry about 00:33:29.370 --> 00:33:31.770 it. And in five years, you go even bigger. 00:33:32.710 --> 00:33:36.590 That is how I think this ends. When I heard the theory, it made a lot of sense. 00:33:36.810 --> 00:33:41.410 It will be fascinating to see what happens. James Bull, thank you so much for 00:33:41.410 --> 00:33:48.170 joining me to discuss this and give all your hugely helpful insight into the deal. 00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:51.090 Before I let you tell people where else to keep up with you, 00:33:51.090 --> 00:33:55.450 I want your 30-second prediction of what's going to happen in the first six 00:33:55.450 --> 00:33:57.010 months of 2025 with this deal. 00:33:58.730 --> 00:34:02.610 I think it will be faster than that. I think if the Guardian don't close it 00:34:02.610 --> 00:34:08.710 or back out of it, possibly within the next two weeks, it just escalates and becomes unviable. 00:34:09.050 --> 00:34:12.470 The best thing the Scott Trust could do if they're going through with this. 00:34:12.470 --> 00:34:13.270 Sorry, what becomes unviable? The deal? 00:34:13.450 --> 00:34:18.230 The deal. The best thing they could do in terms of closing the deal is to have 00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:20.290 it sold before the first strike. 00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:25.030 Because then they can't undo it. They can't buy it back. So I think this happens 00:34:25.030 --> 00:34:27.130 now. Yes or no, the deal's going to happen. 00:34:29.093 --> 00:34:32.633 I'll go yes. Okay. And where can people keep up with you as this all continues? 00:34:33.213 --> 00:34:39.833 So I am at JamesRBUK on Twitter. I am at JamesRBall.com on Blue Sky. 00:34:40.153 --> 00:34:43.213 And I'm at TheNewEuropean.co.uk. 00:34:43.613 --> 00:34:48.113 Fantastic. I'm at Charlotte A. Henry across various social media. 00:34:48.493 --> 00:34:51.233 If you're listening to this, you probably know that the best way to get everything 00:34:51.233 --> 00:34:52.973 from me is at TheEdition.net. 00:34:52.993 --> 00:34:56.213 You get blog posts, you get latest podcast episodes, 00:34:56.213 --> 00:34:59.813 and you can sign up to 00:34:59.813 --> 00:35:02.853 the paid newsletter which means we can keep doing 00:35:02.853 --> 00:35:09.313 all this insightful i hope independent media analysis and reporting i'm really 00:35:09.313 --> 00:35:13.173 grateful for everyone that does do that and it helps keep helps keep the show 00:35:13.173 --> 00:35:17.833 on the road so if you could take out paid subscription it really means a lot 00:35:17.833 --> 00:35:19.933 and i'll be back next week with more. 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:28.950 Music.