WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.840 Music. 00:00:09.689 --> 00:00:13.309 Hello and welcome to the Edition podcast. I know we're a couple of days late, 00:00:13.449 --> 00:00:17.469 but it's worth the wait because you have not one but two Charlottes on this show. 00:00:17.829 --> 00:00:21.289 I'm, of course, your host, Charlotte Henry, and joining me is the UK editor 00:00:21.289 --> 00:00:24.769 of Press Gazette. It's Charlotte Tobit. Hello. 00:00:25.849 --> 00:00:29.809 Hello. Charlotte Squared. Yeah, Charlotte Squared, which is exactly what everyone would want. 00:00:31.289 --> 00:00:34.549 So we've got some huge, we both were chatting before the show saying, 00:00:34.649 --> 00:00:35.489 oh, did you ever know, Summer? 00:00:35.669 --> 00:00:38.689 You were like, no, it's definitely over. Many things are happening. and 00:00:38.689 --> 00:00:42.169 and that is true the media world has got so 00:00:42.169 --> 00:00:45.889 much going on but here in the uk there's been one really fascinating 00:00:45.889 --> 00:00:49.889 story which is that tortoise media might 00:00:49.889 --> 00:00:53.949 be buying the observer so tortoise media for those that don't know was run by 00:00:53.949 --> 00:00:59.309 the ex-bbc news boss james harding um he edited the times as well didn't if 00:00:59.309 --> 00:01:07.089 i remember he's had a lot of big jobs in journalism uh and so he started Hearted Tortoise, which was, 00:01:07.169 --> 00:01:10.189 as the name suggests, all around slow news. 00:01:12.229 --> 00:01:18.009 And right at the beginning, it was quite sort of text focused and it was doing 00:01:18.009 --> 00:01:23.869 these big in-depth stories and then shifted quite a lot in recent years to podcasting. 00:01:24.689 --> 00:01:28.609 Podcasting is its really big focus and it's done some amazing shows. 00:01:29.949 --> 00:01:36.069 The one about the sort of catfishing. Sweet Bobby. Sweet Bobby is absolutely 00:01:36.069 --> 00:01:39.449 amazing for anyone that hasn't listened to it. It's absolutely incredible piece of work. 00:01:39.689 --> 00:01:44.069 I'm doing a Netflix version of that now. I can imagine. And I suspect that's 00:01:44.069 --> 00:01:45.069 going to be amazing. Yeah. 00:01:45.329 --> 00:01:50.169 So they do all these amazing shows and now they might be buying the world's 00:01:50.169 --> 00:01:52.969 oldest Sunday newspaper, the Observer. 00:01:53.149 --> 00:01:57.089 You for Press Gazette Charlotte initially reported on this. 00:01:57.889 --> 00:02:00.009 What's your take on this? 00:02:02.019 --> 00:02:07.859 It's a really interesting play. I see, I mean, there were a lot of, 00:02:07.919 --> 00:02:12.659 it's hard to get an initial take because it was really hard to see exactly what 00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:16.259 the plan was, you know, whether they would have, 00:02:17.079 --> 00:02:21.019 whether it was just meant to be a print add-on or whether there was going to 00:02:21.019 --> 00:02:24.419 be a separate digital brand around it and things like that. 00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:31.059 So it's hard to, you know, assess it as a business case, really, 00:02:31.059 --> 00:02:32.959 when we just don't know that much. 00:02:33.059 --> 00:02:39.459 I mean, it's quite unusual for this to have even been put out in the way that it has. 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:44.279 It was kind of initially reported by Sky News, which I believe shortly after 00:02:44.279 --> 00:02:50.339 kind of management told Observer staff and apparently the rest of the Guardian 00:02:50.339 --> 00:02:54.139 staff learnt it from seeing Sky News on the TV. 00:02:54.779 --> 00:02:58.819 In typical Mark Kleinman fashion, it was a big Mark Kleinman scoop, wasn't it? 00:02:58.819 --> 00:03:01.919 Yeah yeah as as always like yeah 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.759 always just obviously when mark khan gets a big media 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.039 scoop but um yeah and then i mean 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:11.059 and while that was happening i was writing about the guardian 00:03:11.059 --> 00:03:14.199 um media group accounts right you 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:17.019 know that that's a big enough story on its own there's a lot in 00:03:17.019 --> 00:03:19.839 there to pick apart and then all of a sudden you're 00:03:19.839 --> 00:03:22.559 trying to you're like oh right and now there's this 00:03:22.559 --> 00:03:25.319 whole thing where they where tortoise wants to buy the observer 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:29.419 um so yeah but 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:32.519 we've we've since got a bit more information and my colleague 00:03:32.519 --> 00:03:36.459 dom has spoken to james harding um and 00:03:36.459 --> 00:03:39.299 um he's sort of said he thinks it's good for 00:03:39.299 --> 00:03:42.259 liberal journalism if this deal goes ahead 00:03:42.259 --> 00:03:46.219 and it would you know obviously protect the observer brand etc um 00:03:46.219 --> 00:03:49.179 the most negative thing that's come 00:03:49.179 --> 00:03:52.859 out i think is um through the 00:03:52.859 --> 00:03:56.239 nuj the union and staff in 00:03:56.239 --> 00:03:59.939 both the observer and the wider guardian are 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:03.379 um i suppose probably range from 00:04:03.379 --> 00:04:09.779 unhappy to apprehensive to furious um they're worried about what it will mean 00:04:09.779 --> 00:04:15.739 for their job security with me the observer as a brand um at the guardian and 00:04:15.739 --> 00:04:20.859 staff have quite a lot of protections already in terms of like no compulsory 00:04:20.859 --> 00:04:22.579 redundancies and things like that. 00:04:22.719 --> 00:04:28.579 So going to kind of a smaller, basically still a startup really. 00:04:29.359 --> 00:04:31.079 You know, obviously that'd be a huge change. 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:34.599 So sorry, I've kind of encapsulated a lot within that answer. 00:04:34.739 --> 00:04:37.379 No, I'm pleased you have because there's so much to discuss. 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:46.039 Yeah, because I think one of the statements in Dom's story from the NUJ is the 00:04:46.039 --> 00:04:49.719 proposed sale does not and cannot offer the same security to the observer and 00:04:49.719 --> 00:04:52.959 its staff as they seek to maintain their reputation for journalistic excellence, 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.279 independence, courage and integrity, which is kind of what you're getting at. 00:04:59.364 --> 00:05:01.904 Then there was also a motion of no confidence in the Scott Trust. 00:05:02.004 --> 00:05:05.304 Now, I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but the Guardian is not 00:05:05.304 --> 00:05:09.084 owned in the way many other newspapers are. It's held in a trust, the Scott Trust. 00:05:09.564 --> 00:05:15.724 It's why it doesn't have to worry all that much about making money, if I could be so cynical. 00:05:16.704 --> 00:05:20.484 And so the motion of no confidence in the Scott Trust was passed as well. 00:05:20.924 --> 00:05:25.124 The Scott Trust do say that they're not, or in these accounts, 00:05:25.304 --> 00:05:28.364 it does say we can't just let the Guardian, and 00:05:28.364 --> 00:05:31.244 i can't remember the exact wording but they essentially said we 00:05:31.244 --> 00:05:34.004 can't just let it lose money and right you know forever so you 00:05:34.004 --> 00:05:36.824 know and so sometimes difficult decisions have to be made so it's not 00:05:36.824 --> 00:05:43.484 like um it's not like they can just you know keep throwing money at it forever 00:05:43.484 --> 00:05:47.044 and ever so it's kind of there it's probably got a bit more freedom than you 00:05:47.044 --> 00:05:53.164 know a plc for example obviously but um yeah it's not like um it's it's like 00:05:53.164 --> 00:05:56.084 it's not like a billionaire that's just gonna throw 00:05:56.164 --> 00:06:00.124 money at it forever because they like the feeling that gives them or whatever. 00:06:00.484 --> 00:06:01.764 Yeah, or because they can, yeah. 00:06:02.424 --> 00:06:06.324 In response to that NUJ statement, James Harding told your publication, 00:06:06.504 --> 00:06:10.344 The Press Gazette, we are pleased that the NUJ recognises the £25 million investment 00:06:10.344 --> 00:06:14.804 in The Observer, which is what tortists have promised, and they recognise we 00:06:14.804 --> 00:06:16.704 are securing the jobs of people at The Observer. 00:06:16.884 --> 00:06:20.164 We don't think this is going to reduce the resources going into liberal journalism. 00:06:20.684 --> 00:06:22.684 Evidence-based reporting and informed opinion. 00:06:22.884 --> 00:06:25.584 It's going to increase them. this puts new money into 00:06:25.584 --> 00:06:28.464 the observer for the first time in a long time and it seems to 00:06:28.464 --> 00:06:31.884 us also makes possible more investment in the guardian now 00:06:31.884 --> 00:06:35.184 as i understand it the guardian didn't plan 00:06:35.184 --> 00:06:38.084 on selling the observer this was sort of 00:06:38.084 --> 00:06:40.964 came out the blue i was quite shocked when i saw mark climate scoop i 00:06:40.964 --> 00:06:43.904 don't i don't know about you oh yeah 00:06:43.904 --> 00:06:47.564 i sent it in our um press group chat like wtf 00:06:47.564 --> 00:06:50.364 and i described it on linkedin as 00:06:50.364 --> 00:06:53.604 a marmalade dropper which is kind of old school journalism 00:06:53.604 --> 00:06:56.404 terms if you don't i thought everyone would know but people have 00:06:56.404 --> 00:06:59.824 been commenting on my face they didn't know but anyway um yeah so 00:06:59.824 --> 00:07:03.164 it seems that um they were approached uh the 00:07:03.164 --> 00:07:06.724 guardian were approached kind of a few weeks ago by tortoise 00:07:06.724 --> 00:07:10.184 and and yeah as you say they were very much like not 00:07:10.184 --> 00:07:13.504 you know shopping out or anything but um were 00:07:13.504 --> 00:07:16.344 kind of took the view that this was 00:07:16.344 --> 00:07:20.164 far too substantive an offer to not 00:07:20.164 --> 00:07:23.064 look at and they've obviously been looking at it and discussing it 00:07:23.064 --> 00:07:26.064 and now they've entered the phase of like exclusive talks and 00:07:26.064 --> 00:07:28.784 so um kind of within 00:07:28.784 --> 00:07:32.964 three months either way we should know yeah because yeah i was just about to 00:07:32.964 --> 00:07:38.884 say that in this 90 day period now uh but don story says the deal is not a fait 00:07:38.884 --> 00:07:46.044 accompli is his phrasing um so there's still a bit more to go on this just stepping 00:07:46.044 --> 00:07:47.484 back i'm going to put you on the spot here. 00:07:47.624 --> 00:07:51.604 Do you think in 90 days the Observer is going to be owned by Tortoise? 00:07:51.784 --> 00:07:54.344 Do you think it's going to happen? Well... 00:07:55.592 --> 00:08:01.032 I think it seems fairly likely, yeah. Okay. 00:08:03.532 --> 00:08:07.352 Yeah, don't play this back at 90 days if I'm wrong. 00:08:07.712 --> 00:08:11.552 No, no, 100%. Well, this is going to be clipped across social media. Don't worry about it. 00:08:13.712 --> 00:08:19.552 I think I'm glad to agree with you because I just don't think you would have got this. 00:08:19.692 --> 00:08:24.012 If they had no intention, the Guardian could easily have battered this away. 00:08:24.012 --> 00:08:28.072 Way the Scott Trust could have easily batted this away which I 00:08:28.072 --> 00:08:30.892 think and we know that they have you know in 00:08:30.892 --> 00:08:34.152 the past gone through points where 00:08:34.152 --> 00:08:36.912 they've tried to either close the 00:08:36.912 --> 00:08:39.872 Observer or kind of turn it into something different like 00:08:39.872 --> 00:08:42.992 a weekly magazine you know it's not like they've never ever 00:08:42.992 --> 00:08:45.912 thought about the place of the Observer 00:08:45.912 --> 00:08:48.572 in the business before right and yeah as you 00:08:48.572 --> 00:08:51.292 say I think because because they've got to 00:08:51.292 --> 00:08:54.032 this point the fact that they kind of announced it's not like it 00:08:54.032 --> 00:08:56.712 leaked but then they haven't wanted to say anything about it which 00:08:56.712 --> 00:09:00.172 obviously with a lot of deals that would be the case um 00:09:00.172 --> 00:09:03.112 both sides have put out statements about it and 00:09:03.112 --> 00:09:06.392 clarified some of the information and things like that like it is 00:09:06.392 --> 00:09:13.412 pretty legit but i do wonder if the main thing that might derail it now is staff 00:09:13.412 --> 00:09:18.852 and you know if staff i don't know in like kind of the model that the guardian 00:09:18.852 --> 00:09:23.172 has with their staff like the fact that they even elect the editor for example. 00:09:23.452 --> 00:09:26.612 I do yes that means yeah and and 00:09:26.612 --> 00:09:29.972 so do they have more power to object and 00:09:29.972 --> 00:09:36.132 um yeah raise concerns than than they might in other publishers well the answer 00:09:36.132 --> 00:09:41.272 that is of course yes but that doesn't mean it won't happen yeah of course I'm 00:09:41.272 --> 00:09:45.172 just I'm kind of heading my bets by saying if it doesn't happen I reckon it'll 00:09:45.172 --> 00:09:48.492 be something to do with staff yeah I think that sounds entirely 00:09:48.732 --> 00:09:52.872 sensible as a sort of yeah sort of the two different books either it's going 00:09:52.872 --> 00:09:55.392 to go through or the staff are going to do something to do really it doesn't 00:09:55.392 --> 00:09:59.932 seem like the oh james harding or the scott trust or whatever are the ones that will clash, 00:10:01.246 --> 00:10:05.846 Yeah, I reckon they've already figured out the, 00:10:05.966 --> 00:10:10.746 I think they've already decided that the kind of ethos and value fits enough 00:10:10.746 --> 00:10:17.566 because they wouldn't sell it to someone who they thought would change it so 00:10:17.566 --> 00:10:20.506 much and not fit the brand values because that would look terrible for them at the garden. 00:10:20.506 --> 00:10:23.506 It's not going to the Barclay Brothers. It's not going to the Barclay Brothers. 00:10:24.546 --> 00:10:26.186 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:10:27.826 --> 00:10:30.846 They would only even consider a certain type of owner You know, 00:10:30.866 --> 00:10:35.326 and I think they've already decided that Tortoise kind of fulfilled the kind 00:10:35.326 --> 00:10:37.286 of mission and values of that. 00:10:37.466 --> 00:10:43.506 Which brings me really to my next question, which is why on earth would a modern 00:10:43.506 --> 00:10:49.786 digital newsroom like which, you know, really did a pivot and focuses on award 00:10:49.786 --> 00:10:51.146 winning, fantastic podcasts. 00:10:52.346 --> 00:10:55.406 Why do they want to pick up a Sunday newspaper? 00:10:55.406 --> 00:10:58.566 Paper so i think 00:10:58.566 --> 00:11:02.826 um dom's story 00:11:02.826 --> 00:11:06.026 suggests um we're looking at it like or they're 00:11:06.026 --> 00:11:10.006 looking at it like um a weekly 00:11:10.006 --> 00:11:13.146 current affairs magazine like the 00:11:13.146 --> 00:11:15.806 atlantic which um you know only a 00:11:15.806 --> 00:11:18.626 few years ago was losing money and is now 00:11:18.626 --> 00:11:21.506 profitable it's like it's doing really really well both 00:11:21.506 --> 00:11:24.526 online is paywalled online and um 00:11:24.526 --> 00:11:27.786 kind of this weekly premium print product. 00:11:27.786 --> 00:11:30.646 And um i mean kind of a bit like the standard going 00:11:30.646 --> 00:11:33.806 from daily to weekly i think yes we'll 00:11:33.806 --> 00:11:37.886 come to i want to but like kind 00:11:37.886 --> 00:11:41.946 of um the reason i bring it up is i think the the um 00:11:41.946 --> 00:11:45.326 most longevity for print in 00:11:45.326 --> 00:11:48.386 kind of the longer term now will 00:11:48.386 --> 00:11:51.406 be weekly rather than daily like really 00:11:51.406 --> 00:11:54.126 ship habits have obviously changed so much we know that people 00:11:54.126 --> 00:11:56.866 aren't picking up papers daily and um 00:11:56.866 --> 00:11:59.526 there's a lot so much stuff we can 00:11:59.526 --> 00:12:02.406 read on the internet every single day but i think people like 00:12:02.406 --> 00:12:05.446 um and even including young people 00:12:05.446 --> 00:12:08.946 like having kind of a um off 00:12:08.946 --> 00:12:11.726 screen thing that they pick up every now 00:12:11.726 --> 00:12:15.646 and then whether that's like a week or a month or whatever um and 00:12:15.646 --> 00:12:19.566 so i i think the observer fits into that and i think um the sound is obviously 00:12:19.566 --> 00:12:25.626 trying that but um so that means that um tortoise would have something uh that's 00:12:25.626 --> 00:12:29.846 they very much don't have at the moment it would open up opportunities for like 00:12:29.846 --> 00:12:33.206 print advertising which can still be really solid if if you've got the. 00:12:36.697 --> 00:12:42.157 And then they seem to be looking at whether a paywalled website accompanying that could work. 00:12:42.797 --> 00:12:46.597 Which, of course, is antithetical to The Guardian, which has never put up a paywall. 00:12:47.337 --> 00:12:51.457 Indeed. And I mean, there's a lot to figure out that we don't know in terms 00:12:51.457 --> 00:12:56.397 of how the website would work. And obviously that would create a competitor to The Guardian. 00:12:56.537 --> 00:12:59.717 There's a lot of questions in terms of the online proposition, I think. 00:12:59.717 --> 00:13:03.657 Um and and the deal doesn't 00:13:03.657 --> 00:13:08.417 include the observer archive so you know they wouldn't have um to 00:13:08.417 --> 00:13:11.377 populate that in the first place um but yeah 00:13:11.377 --> 00:13:14.217 i think i think probably to the point where yes their 00:13:14.217 --> 00:13:17.197 podcast business is doing super well and they're licensing 00:13:17.197 --> 00:13:19.957 um some of the ip out and things like that 00:13:19.957 --> 00:13:22.857 but i suppose maybe they're 00:13:22.857 --> 00:13:26.057 seeing a limit to growing that 00:13:26.057 --> 00:13:29.737 in the short term and wondered how they could quickly boost 00:13:29.737 --> 00:13:32.737 the business and build a more rounded business it would 00:13:32.737 --> 00:13:37.777 make a more rounded business i guess i mean i'm not entirely sure how many people 00:13:37.777 --> 00:13:43.137 would pick it up on it but obviously there is some kind of advertising element 00:13:43.137 --> 00:13:48.757 as well if you like the observer go to tortoise media.com yeah for sure yeah 00:13:48.757 --> 00:13:51.977 cross cross promotion and which is interesting And yeah, 00:13:52.137 --> 00:13:56.257 there's a lot of just across the whole market kind of internationally. 00:13:56.397 --> 00:14:01.257 And there's a lot of consolidation, you know, instead of like one brand is kind 00:14:01.257 --> 00:14:03.277 of better if you have a few that can help you out. 00:14:03.537 --> 00:14:06.317 So currently tortoise don't have that. No. 00:14:06.657 --> 00:14:12.217 And they're doing things like a 30 day fee trial. They have a you can get if 00:14:12.217 --> 00:14:14.057 you're under 30, which I'm not. 00:14:14.377 --> 00:14:17.797 You can have 60 pounds a year subscription for tortoise. Otherwise, 00:14:17.897 --> 00:14:20.437 it's 130 pounds a year, 40 pounds quarterly. 00:14:21.417 --> 00:14:25.817 Um they do live events which is obviously a really big part 00:14:25.817 --> 00:14:29.737 of their business and was really a big deal but was obviously really disrupted during 00:14:29.737 --> 00:14:35.377 covid um so there's all sorts of uh different ways they could integrate it together 00:14:35.377 --> 00:14:38.357 i'm sure there would be a bundled subscription that you get the observer and 00:14:38.357 --> 00:14:44.797 tortoise it will be fascinating to see how that how they do all that and obviously 00:14:44.797 --> 00:14:48.257 there is plenty of written content on the tortoise website you You know, 00:14:48.337 --> 00:14:53.277 I don't want to overhype how much they've flipped a podcast because they still 00:14:53.277 --> 00:14:56.057 do care very much about the written word, 00:14:56.157 --> 00:15:00.737 but they made these huge award-winning podcasts, which are, you know. 00:15:00.737 --> 00:15:04.157 I mean, from what they've said and what I've seen them say at conferences and 00:15:04.157 --> 00:15:09.637 stuff, it is fair to, like, really say massively it's all about a podcast now. 00:15:09.757 --> 00:15:13.417 And, like, yeah, you're right, there's other content, but the podcasts are the big thing. 00:15:13.717 --> 00:15:17.017 Yeah, I mean, you and I have both spoken to Tortoise people, 00:15:17.017 --> 00:15:21.097 And that's really where the focus is, right? Yeah, for sure. 00:15:21.777 --> 00:15:26.777 And I guess maybe they think that having the observer means that's their way 00:15:26.777 --> 00:15:29.557 of getting the sort of balance of the written content. 00:15:31.341 --> 00:15:32.061 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:34.221 --> 00:15:38.721 You know, both of you and I are sort of guessing at this, but it is a fascinating one. 00:15:38.941 --> 00:15:42.901 I really was shocked when I saw it, actually, because the Guardian and the Observer 00:15:42.901 --> 00:15:46.521 have been so closely associated with each other for always. 00:15:46.741 --> 00:15:50.041 Because there is no Sunday Guardian in the Observer. 00:15:51.301 --> 00:15:54.401 Yeah, so it obviously makes you wonder what the Guardian will do. 00:15:54.401 --> 00:16:01.421 So I wonder if they could, I mean, the Saturday Guardian is already, 00:16:01.561 --> 00:16:04.501 you know, fairly beefy and got some good supplements. 00:16:04.601 --> 00:16:10.341 Maybe they'll do something in the vein of the FT weekend to make the Saturday offering really good. 00:16:11.661 --> 00:16:16.181 Yeah, because I guess if they're trying to cut, if part of this is to cut some 00:16:16.181 --> 00:16:20.561 costs, you're not going to make the Guardian on Sunday. 00:16:20.681 --> 00:16:24.161 You're not going to sell the Observer brand and then just make a Sunday Guardian. 00:16:24.401 --> 00:16:30.961 Yeah, I think it would be mad to add another print national newspaper now at 00:16:30.961 --> 00:16:32.081 this stage that we're at. 00:16:32.541 --> 00:16:37.601 You know, they're not going to do the Sun on Sunday thing when the news of the world disappeared. 00:16:38.461 --> 00:16:40.301 Yeah, I doubt that, yeah. 00:16:41.661 --> 00:16:46.621 I guess that means we're talking back to newspapers disappearing. 00:16:48.561 --> 00:16:53.221 On Thursday 19th of September, we got the last ever daily evening standard. Standard. 00:16:54.041 --> 00:16:59.721 For someone that grew up in London, the Evening Standard was a really big deal. 00:17:00.281 --> 00:17:06.461 It was in my house every evening. It had updated versions of the stories you'd 00:17:06.461 --> 00:17:09.481 heard about in the day. It was a really big deal. 00:17:10.661 --> 00:17:13.121 And now it's no more. Yeah. 00:17:14.534 --> 00:17:18.954 Yeah, I mean, it's been through so many changes since then, I suppose. 00:17:19.154 --> 00:17:25.334 And in kind of recent years, it's done the thing of like with the big picture 00:17:25.334 --> 00:17:30.034 front pages and, you know, the arrival of Dylan Jones from who was formerly 00:17:30.034 --> 00:17:31.454 at British UQ for a long time. 00:17:31.494 --> 00:17:35.474 You know, it's a bit more magazine feel, you know, not wholly. 00:17:35.554 --> 00:17:41.334 It still has new stories, obviously, but it also in recent years took out the 00:17:41.334 --> 00:17:44.854 London from the name. So I think maybe it lost that connection. 00:17:46.314 --> 00:17:50.774 And if you talk to evening standard people, they get a bit offended if you just 00:17:50.774 --> 00:17:55.814 think of it as a regional newspaper like the Manchester Evening News or something. They don't like that. 00:17:56.094 --> 00:18:01.754 Yeah, they deliberately tried to make it more of a broader brand, 00:18:01.914 --> 00:18:05.294 even though the print product was still only in London. 00:18:05.674 --> 00:18:10.294 But now, of course, with the weekly, it's very much pivoting back the other 00:18:10.294 --> 00:18:15.134 way. It's going to be the London Standard and it's all going to be kind of London 00:18:15.134 --> 00:18:20.274 news analysis and what to do in London. 00:18:20.434 --> 00:18:25.234 You know, it's all they've seen that as the USP, which I think makes sense because 00:18:25.234 --> 00:18:31.334 there isn't anything directly comparable in print in London anymore. 00:18:31.534 --> 00:18:33.514 I mean, daily or weekly, really. No. 00:18:35.694 --> 00:18:40.914 And there's also a thing that lots of publications fear being too London-centric, right? 00:18:41.014 --> 00:18:43.954 They all get twitchy if you say, oh, you need to get out of London. 00:18:44.134 --> 00:18:50.334 And so having something that's unashamedly London-focused, as you say, is a USP. 00:18:51.414 --> 00:18:55.434 Yeah, I mean, like national newspapers, for example, being told they're too London-centric, 00:18:55.434 --> 00:18:58.294 the trouble that it's not necessarily the stuff 00:18:58.294 --> 00:19:01.574 that kind of most people 00:19:01.574 --> 00:19:04.454 that live in london really want oh it's 00:19:04.454 --> 00:19:07.514 like the view of the country from london it's not 00:19:07.514 --> 00:19:11.234 like stuff that's going on in um 00:19:11.234 --> 00:19:17.534 you know brent or or hammersmith or you know i think and and thing and things 00:19:17.534 --> 00:19:23.334 to do uh probably maybe the culture sections have a um a slightly bigger focus 00:19:23.334 --> 00:19:27.974 on you know london theatres and museums but and of course sport, 00:19:28.874 --> 00:19:33.254 yeah it's always and online sport has become a huge deal for the evening standard 00:19:33.254 --> 00:19:39.694 they really dominate the kind of SEO how to watch match preview kind of space for example, 00:19:40.174 --> 00:19:43.834 very strong in there well that kind of thing is going to be less relevant with 00:19:43.834 --> 00:19:46.834 all the Google changes though so that doesn't well that will be fascinating 00:19:46.834 --> 00:19:50.294 yeah that will be very interesting to see but obviously they have major sports 00:19:50.294 --> 00:19:53.354 teams based in London and do a very good job of covering those. 00:19:54.783 --> 00:20:01.823 Yeah true yeah so that will be interesting to see what it does um yeah i i i'm 00:20:01.823 --> 00:20:05.523 kind of sad about it but i also couldn't tell you the last time i picked up 00:20:05.523 --> 00:20:06.823 a print copy of the evening standard, 00:20:07.883 --> 00:20:11.943 i think i mean i i always tried to make sure i picked them up every now and then but it 00:20:12.363 --> 00:20:15.123 the the one thing you immediately notice is how much 00:20:15.123 --> 00:20:18.103 thinner it felt compared to how it used to you 00:20:18.103 --> 00:20:21.083 know just simply fewer pages but again with 00:20:21.083 --> 00:20:25.623 the weekly they've said it'll be thicker yeah so i 00:20:25.623 --> 00:20:28.443 don't know i'm looking forward to seeing it but obviously yeah as you 00:20:28.443 --> 00:20:32.023 say it's really not the same um yeah yeah 00:20:32.023 --> 00:20:35.123 metro is still about obviously that's good that's the daily one 00:20:35.123 --> 00:20:37.803 in the morning yeah so in the morning yeah so it's quite a 00:20:37.803 --> 00:20:40.723 good kind of digest if you don't want to get that maybe 00:20:40.723 --> 00:20:43.803 if you get bad signal you know um they 00:20:43.803 --> 00:20:47.143 talk about having um competition from 00:20:47.143 --> 00:20:50.183 wi-fi and signal and stuff but actually a 00:20:50.183 --> 00:20:53.203 lot of times it's terrible signal yeah so people from 00:20:53.203 --> 00:20:57.863 listening maybe in the us or whatever having wi-fi on the tube has become a 00:20:57.863 --> 00:21:03.083 very big deal 5g on the tube it's be and so a lot of the argument that the metro 00:21:03.083 --> 00:21:05.723 and the evening standard put out is that people are now looking at their phones 00:21:05.723 --> 00:21:09.563 and downloading stuff on their phones because they can get signal instead of 00:21:09.563 --> 00:21:11.783 picking up a newspaper to entertain them on their commute. 00:21:12.663 --> 00:21:16.403 Yeah absolutely but um again um 00:21:16.403 --> 00:21:19.423 on my commute a lot for a 00:21:19.423 --> 00:21:22.143 lot of it the signal is just terrible obviously you can plan around that 00:21:22.143 --> 00:21:25.303 and and as you say you can download stuff or read different 00:21:25.303 --> 00:21:29.023 stuff or whatever fine but also although people 00:21:29.023 --> 00:21:32.503 are on their phones all the time people do like time off their phones um 00:21:32.503 --> 00:21:35.283 and and i think the good thing 00:21:35.283 --> 00:21:38.223 about something like the metro Metro actually still is that 00:21:38.223 --> 00:21:41.163 though it because it feels kind of 00:21:41.163 --> 00:21:44.683 I don't know it's you get a good digest 00:21:44.683 --> 00:21:47.583 of the day before so if you're not one of these people 00:21:47.583 --> 00:21:50.663 that's constantly plugged into the news obviously we are 00:21:50.663 --> 00:21:53.803 yeah but lots of people aren't and say and 00:21:53.803 --> 00:21:56.783 Metro has a good um it's on 00:21:56.783 --> 00:22:01.203 a lot of the buses for example so kind of you can picture people just being 00:22:01.203 --> 00:22:05.223 like okay I haven't you know looked at the news since um i don't know lunchtime 00:22:05.223 --> 00:22:08.683 yesterday maybe and i'll just have a quick look to check if i've missed anything 00:22:08.683 --> 00:22:14.063 there is still you know plenty of use case for for these papers so um they're 00:22:14.063 --> 00:22:15.043 on the bus as well the metro. 00:22:16.587 --> 00:22:20.287 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, Metro's got a much bigger bus network than the standard. 00:22:20.407 --> 00:22:23.607 And I think that maybe helps make the difference as well. Like they're reaching 00:22:23.607 --> 00:22:27.407 a lot of people that aren't office workers who are going in every day. 00:22:28.447 --> 00:22:37.327 It's, yeah, it's, I think, yeah, I think it's, it's nice to not be all doom and gloom about it. 00:22:37.727 --> 00:22:41.087 Okay. Well, I like ending on a positive note. 00:22:41.187 --> 00:22:45.507 So Shara and Toby, thanks so much for joining. Where can people keep up with 00:22:45.507 --> 00:22:46.407 all the great stuff you do? 00:22:47.147 --> 00:22:51.227 So uh pressgazette.co.uk obviously 00:22:51.227 --> 00:22:57.907 um and i'm just at charlotte tobert on x same or however it's on blue sky and 00:22:57.907 --> 00:23:02.047 trying to do a bit of both at the moment and um linkedin as well i pissed a 00:23:02.047 --> 00:23:06.587 bit lovely well thanks so much for joining i'm at charlotte a henry across social 00:23:06.587 --> 00:23:11.067 media hopefully if you're listening to this you are at you know all about the edition 00:23:11.287 --> 00:23:16.447 .net and you're subscribed to the paid for newsletter as well it helps keep 00:23:16.447 --> 00:23:20.787 the show on the road and it means i love you deeply um we'll be back next week 00:23:20.787 --> 00:23:24.547 with more great guests and conversations about the media until then have a good time. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:33.700 Music.