WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.360 Music. 00:00:09.392 --> 00:00:12.432 Hello, welcome back to The Edition podcast. I'm Charlotte Henry. 00:00:13.072 --> 00:00:17.932 Obviously, you know that this week, every week, we pull together the best stories 00:00:17.932 --> 00:00:22.752 from tech, media, sports, all that good stuff with some great guests. 00:00:22.872 --> 00:00:25.672 And this week, I have a really great guest once again. It's Benjamin Mullen 00:00:25.672 --> 00:00:27.712 from The New York Times. Hello, how are you? 00:00:28.212 --> 00:00:31.492 Hey, Charlotte, how are you? I'm thrilled to have you back is how I am. 00:00:32.452 --> 00:00:35.952 Quiet week, not much to talk about. We'll just chat, have a coffee. 00:00:36.892 --> 00:00:41.632 That'll be fine. yeah yeah nothing happened this week absolutely nothing no 00:00:41.632 --> 00:00:46.852 not much is going on in the world of media uh we jest of course because in perhaps 00:00:46.852 --> 00:00:49.652 the most ultimate inside baseball media story. 00:00:51.032 --> 00:00:54.412 Okay i'm gonna play out how this played for me yeah for 00:00:54.412 --> 00:00:57.892 the for the for the five people they care about this story yeah 00:00:57.892 --> 00:01:01.392 one of which is the subject of the story anyway i was 00:01:01.392 --> 00:01:04.272 sitting as I do look to my phone 00:01:04.272 --> 00:01:08.132 sort of late in the evening awaiting just checking 00:01:08.132 --> 00:01:11.272 my email then the reliable sources newsletter from 00:01:11.272 --> 00:01:13.952 CNN arrives I'm like oh I didn't think 00:01:13.952 --> 00:01:17.772 that was happening anymore and then it's from Brian Stelter 00:01:17.772 --> 00:01:21.092 I was like surprise so seriously I 00:01:21.092 --> 00:01:24.432 was surprised I think I did an audible gasp because yes 00:01:24.432 --> 00:01:27.252 Brian Stelter is back at CNN two 00:01:27.252 --> 00:01:30.132 years after being unceremoniously walked out the 00:01:30.132 --> 00:01:33.332 door he is he's back he's 00:01:33.332 --> 00:01:36.472 writing reliable sources he's the what's it chief media analyst 00:01:36.472 --> 00:01:41.952 yeah now is he a bit is he big in the uk do you guys know who he is uh i think 00:01:41.952 --> 00:01:46.772 only media nerds like me but he has been on the bbc quite a lot recently oh 00:01:46.772 --> 00:01:50.692 okay so he's he's sort of getting his name out there he i think he's done quite 00:01:50.692 --> 00:01:54.172 a few hits on the bbc in his now ended freelance era, 00:01:54.692 --> 00:02:01.632 yeah yeah R.I.P talk to me as someone in the New York media scene how this all played out. 00:02:02.703 --> 00:02:10.643 So, like you, I found out that night that it was happening and then had to scramble to write up a story. 00:02:11.423 --> 00:02:16.983 The big question was whether his predecessor at CNN, who he worked quite closely 00:02:16.983 --> 00:02:22.163 with, Oliver Darcy, knew about this when he left CNN and Reliable Sources to 00:02:22.163 --> 00:02:23.603 start his own company, Status. 00:02:24.043 --> 00:02:27.743 Because Oliver is something of a protege of Brian's. Yes. 00:02:27.923 --> 00:02:31.263 So it was weird that as Oliver was leaving, Brian was coming in. 00:02:31.263 --> 00:02:34.463 Um i think i used the phrase protege in 00:02:34.463 --> 00:02:37.683 my story about all of this oh okay so 00:02:37.683 --> 00:02:41.603 yeah that's perfect so basically the big question was um 00:02:41.603 --> 00:02:44.703 did cnn reach out to brian before oliver 00:02:44.703 --> 00:02:47.343 left and the best reporting that i 00:02:47.343 --> 00:02:50.343 could get for my story was that the two were not 00:02:50.343 --> 00:02:53.303 related that basically um amy and 00:02:53.303 --> 00:02:57.223 tell us who's the evp of talent at uh then 00:02:57.223 --> 00:03:00.163 you're uh at cnn reached out to brian after oliver left 00:03:00.163 --> 00:03:03.363 because because oliver darcy was leaving they 00:03:03.363 --> 00:03:06.523 realized they wanted to keep the reliable sources newsletter 00:03:06.523 --> 00:03:13.483 and brand and therefore try to bring brian's delta back basically yeah but it's 00:03:13.483 --> 00:03:17.843 interesting because there's been a lot of there's been a lot of layoffs cnn 00:03:17.843 --> 00:03:24.943 yes and um one of which was brian's delta well right right um and they're doing these 00:03:25.023 --> 00:03:29.463 layoffs as they're trying to stand up a subscription program. 00:03:29.743 --> 00:03:36.283 And so I have found myself wondering, why would CNN be cutting staff if they 00:03:36.283 --> 00:03:39.503 need to produce additional great content to get people to subscribe? 00:03:39.863 --> 00:03:42.363 And so maybe hiring Brian is part of that. 00:03:42.743 --> 00:03:44.983 Yeah, Dan Kennedy, who's been 00:03:44.983 --> 00:03:50.283 on this show, wrote a really interesting post, a blog post about this, 00:03:50.383 --> 00:03:54.983 was saying basically, Basically, you know, the Reliable Sources newsletter and 00:03:54.983 --> 00:03:58.863 the status which from Oliver Darcy, which you just referenced, 00:03:59.223 --> 00:04:01.363 are going to kind of be going head to head. 00:04:01.443 --> 00:04:06.963 Very similar vibe, you know, two very good reporters, so on and so forth. 00:04:07.423 --> 00:04:12.743 But one is at the moment free and one you have to pay a not inconsiderable sum for. 00:04:12.863 --> 00:04:15.443 I would point out that it's three times the amount of the edition. 00:04:15.643 --> 00:04:20.263 So I leave that. You never miss a trick, do you, Charlotte? Listen, 00:04:20.663 --> 00:04:23.503 I leave it to listeners to decide what is better value for money. 00:04:25.043 --> 00:04:28.843 But it's an interesting thing that, you know, this free thing powered by a major 00:04:28.843 --> 00:04:33.223 media organization taking on an indie publication that's paid for. 00:04:33.943 --> 00:04:37.383 I think it's really interesting that they're going head to head like this. 00:04:37.563 --> 00:04:42.583 It's like a real Darth Vader, Obi-Wan situation because Brian in some ways trained Oliver. 00:04:43.743 --> 00:04:49.963 But he's not his father. No? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we should say they're not family-related. 00:04:50.103 --> 00:04:54.143 Although neither are Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker. No. Spoilers! 00:04:55.283 --> 00:04:57.563 I should say Obi-Wan, sorry. Yeah. 00:04:59.373 --> 00:05:04.593 But yeah, they worked together very closely. They were often seen as a double act. 00:05:04.873 --> 00:05:10.353 And so I find this whole thing in media nerd terms really fascinating. Yeah. 00:05:10.793 --> 00:05:15.033 But, you know, Oliver is a great investigative reporter. 00:05:15.273 --> 00:05:19.353 Like two of the stories he's done that I have found really compelling was he 00:05:19.353 --> 00:05:24.653 broke the Mark Halperin Me Too story, I think, in 2017 or 2018. 00:05:24.653 --> 00:05:29.593 If your readers don't know, Mark Halperin is an influential American political 00:05:29.593 --> 00:05:34.773 reporter, less influential since that story, which kind of interrupted his career. 00:05:35.713 --> 00:05:41.433 And he also broke a story that Tucker Carlson's producer, one of them anyway, 00:05:41.793 --> 00:05:46.373 was active on a message board that was frequented by white supremacists. 00:05:47.233 --> 00:05:51.473 And so those are two great or at least interesting investigative stories. 00:05:52.213 --> 00:05:55.173 And um and so i think to 00:05:55.173 --> 00:05:58.553 the extent that he can add that kind of value at his new newsletter 00:05:58.553 --> 00:06:04.033 he'll be successful yeah and that is of course where the value add in the you 00:06:04.033 --> 00:06:08.173 know cnn the power of cnn is the opposite value add you know that's the the 00:06:08.173 --> 00:06:12.553 two kind of competing ideals right and i guess some people will subscribe to 00:06:12.553 --> 00:06:16.293 both i i i'm just interested to see this kind of battle can the 00:06:16.413 --> 00:06:19.373 uh can the you know trainee become the winner 00:06:19.373 --> 00:06:22.813 you know i'm wondering if we're going to get another edition plug 00:06:22.813 --> 00:06:26.113 you know about value add-ins well exactly thank 00:06:26.113 --> 00:06:29.053 you you've done it for me thank you um the other 00:06:29.053 --> 00:06:31.713 thing that struck me as i was watching this and in 00:06:31.713 --> 00:06:36.553 your story about it that you sort of humbly said you cobbled together but it 00:06:36.553 --> 00:06:43.853 didn't seem like that to me was that it was about You said it was about a three-week 00:06:43.853 --> 00:06:48.013 period between Brian Self's being first approached to come back and the announcement 00:06:48.013 --> 00:06:51.013 of his... That's what it was called, yeah. 00:06:51.933 --> 00:06:59.813 For me, it feels also like that whole thing feels to be like undoing the Chris Lick era. 00:06:59.973 --> 00:07:05.113 It was quite a big deal in media terms when Brian left. 00:07:05.153 --> 00:07:10.853 He was known to be very close, wasn't he, to Jeff Zucker, who previously ran CNN. 00:07:12.498 --> 00:07:18.338 And his return feels like Mark Thompson and his executive team kind of undoing 00:07:18.338 --> 00:07:20.398 some of the damage of the Chris Licht era. 00:07:21.638 --> 00:07:25.238 Well, it's interesting. There's a lot of personalities at play because. 00:07:25.938 --> 00:07:29.938 Aren't there always? Right. Well, because David Zasloff, who runs Warner Brothers 00:07:29.938 --> 00:07:33.338 Discovery, doesn't get along with Jeff Zucker. 00:07:33.938 --> 00:07:39.598 But he does get along with Brian Stelter. And so the extent to which Brian was 00:07:39.598 --> 00:07:45.498 seen as a Zucker person may have affected his status at the network. 00:07:45.638 --> 00:07:50.498 I don't know. What I do know for sure is that Chris Licht had research that 00:07:50.498 --> 00:07:55.698 showed that Brian Stelter was more associated with partisanship. 00:07:55.958 --> 00:07:58.758 Liberal partisanship at CNN than other anchors. 00:07:58.758 --> 00:08:03.738 Now, the big question for me is whether that perception is actually based in 00:08:03.738 --> 00:08:13.118 reality and how much it is, because Ryan has been a longtime critic and investigator of Fox News, 00:08:13.238 --> 00:08:21.698 and many of the hosts on Fox News have made Brian out to be a political ideologue. 00:08:21.698 --> 00:08:30.258 Um, I think for the most part that Ryan's journalism has, has fallen under primarily 00:08:30.258 --> 00:08:32.918 fact-based reporting and analysis, 00:08:33.078 --> 00:08:36.958 and he's been critical of Fox news. It's, you know, on occasion. 00:08:37.158 --> 00:08:42.038 And so I guess I'm wondering to what extent the perception of Brian as a liberal 00:08:42.038 --> 00:08:47.518 commentator was created by some of the very same people that he scrutinized. 00:08:47.518 --> 00:08:50.478 Um so i don't i don't 00:08:50.478 --> 00:08:53.478 know to what extent his ouster from cnn by 00:08:53.478 --> 00:08:57.178 chris licht was justified in the first place yeah i 00:08:57.178 --> 00:08:59.918 mean i actually i always i tended to listen 00:08:59.918 --> 00:09:05.158 to reliable sources as a podcast uh not watch it on cnn which is you know not 00:09:05.158 --> 00:09:08.258 always it's slightly more difficult to get here a different way of getting it 00:09:08.258 --> 00:09:13.618 than you get it uh in the u.s but i i often listen to it almost every week as 00:09:13.618 --> 00:09:16.558 when it was in its podcast form which i really liked it was a really clever 00:09:16.558 --> 00:09:17.858 way of getting the show out there. 00:09:17.978 --> 00:09:22.798 So I was disappointed when the show ended, then the newsletter ended and Brian 00:09:22.798 --> 00:09:27.718 left and then it was fired up again under Oliver Darcy. 00:09:27.878 --> 00:09:29.978 So I always liked it. 00:09:30.298 --> 00:09:35.058 I agree with much of your analysis about Brian Stelter's work, that it was reporting. 00:09:36.118 --> 00:09:41.838 I think the problem was often he was calling out disinformation and misinformation. information. 00:09:42.318 --> 00:09:48.098 And that was at the time he was doing that reporting coming from a couple of clear sources, right? 00:09:48.858 --> 00:09:52.818 And therefore he would say he's playing balls and strikes and calling balls 00:09:52.818 --> 00:09:53.678 and strikes, wouldn't he? 00:09:53.698 --> 00:09:57.998 Because he would say Fox News is spreading X, Y, Z that's not true. 00:09:58.038 --> 00:09:59.138 And I'm calling that out. 00:10:00.454 --> 00:10:09.614 Right. If you if you fact check the Republican president on a very regular basis 00:10:09.614 --> 00:10:12.934 and call what he's saying misinformation, 00:10:13.594 --> 00:10:20.334 you're going to be perceived as anti-Republican partisan, regardless of whether 00:10:20.334 --> 00:10:21.614 or not your commentary is fair. 00:10:22.354 --> 00:10:24.994 Yeah, I personally thought a lot of the time it was. But yes, 00:10:25.134 --> 00:10:30.054 and obviously he's written books on Fox News and it was a very subtle title 00:10:30.054 --> 00:10:31.434 of it, Network of Lies or something. 00:10:31.614 --> 00:10:36.934 I mean, it's hard to decipher what really the book conclusion it comes to from 00:10:36.934 --> 00:10:41.094 that title. But this brings me to another question that I really wanted to ask 00:10:41.094 --> 00:10:43.634 you, actually, and get your perspective from inside the US. 00:10:44.054 --> 00:10:50.594 Right. What is the significance of this move before in the run up to the election? 00:10:50.774 --> 00:10:53.854 You know, we're a couple of months out now from the US election. 00:10:54.294 --> 00:10:58.774 What is the significance of this programming decision? Because there's not going 00:10:58.774 --> 00:11:00.374 to be reliable sources to show. 00:11:00.714 --> 00:11:06.054 The idea of this media analyst role is Brian pops up on all different kind of shows. 00:11:06.054 --> 00:11:13.334 So what is the kind of thinking leading into the election do you think i don't 00:11:13.334 --> 00:11:16.094 know for sure but my guess is that they're going to get a lot of mileage out 00:11:16.094 --> 00:11:20.254 of brian as somebody that's going to be commentating on the political coverage 00:11:20.254 --> 00:11:22.774 of the election and during the run-up to election day. 00:11:23.434 --> 00:11:26.734 He'll probably be analyzing um the 00:11:26.734 --> 00:11:29.634 way that donald trump is covered the way that kamala harris is 00:11:29.634 --> 00:11:32.874 covered and we should note that they have um two 00:11:32.874 --> 00:11:35.954 other people at cnn at least doing media 00:11:35.954 --> 00:11:38.894 commentary and analysis and reporting they have hadass gold 00:11:38.894 --> 00:11:41.874 who uh is a former protege or 00:11:41.874 --> 00:11:48.654 a former um co-worker of dylan byers at politico um and they have uh sarah fisher 00:11:48.654 --> 00:11:55.214 who's uh at axios and he does on-air commentary um at cnn so so yeah i mean 00:11:55.214 --> 00:11:58.214 they they definitely are probably going to get a lot of on-air mileage out of 00:11:58.214 --> 00:12:00.654 him but they already have a pretty deep bench over there. 00:12:01.154 --> 00:12:05.854 Yes, that's an interesting point. But given what you said about him being perceived 00:12:05.854 --> 00:12:07.234 as having a liberal bias, 00:12:07.534 --> 00:12:13.134 do you think this is another step away from the Chris Licht thing of we mustn't 00:12:13.134 --> 00:12:17.034 be able to be shown to be backing one team or the other? 00:12:18.654 --> 00:12:22.514 Do you think they're sort of moving on from that in the run up to the election? 00:12:23.254 --> 00:12:26.214 Well, I should say it's clear that Chris Licht 00:12:26.214 --> 00:12:30.954 thought he had a liberal bias um i don't know that the current cnn management 00:12:30.954 --> 00:12:37.134 thinks that he does agree um and i would say uh you know mark thompson has spoken 00:12:37.134 --> 00:12:42.354 about this or at least he's written emails to staff about this i remember one 00:12:42.354 --> 00:12:45.794 of the first calls he did was that essentially he 00:12:46.014 --> 00:12:51.314 said to staff i think it was on his first day that they were basically going to um, 00:12:52.712 --> 00:12:56.772 like you said, call balls and strikes. And they weren't going to be afraid to 00:12:56.772 --> 00:13:00.832 be critical of Democrats or Republicans. 00:13:00.992 --> 00:13:03.672 They were just going to basically do their jobs as journalists. 00:13:04.472 --> 00:13:10.152 That's a nice, that's a revelatory thought, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:13:10.952 --> 00:13:15.412 And I mean, obviously, as someone who works for a news organization that no 00:13:15.412 --> 00:13:18.492 one ever criticizes or thinks has any bias, 00:13:18.572 --> 00:13:23.372 you'll find it hard to process why people might think that about a writer a 00:13:23.372 --> 00:13:30.472 reporter but yeah that was a criticism thrown at brian and i wonder if they've just gone, 00:13:31.052 --> 00:13:37.352 do you know what he's just good at what he does we don't care chris lift made a mistake. 00:13:38.212 --> 00:13:41.512 Trying to navigate this middle pathway 00:13:41.512 --> 00:13:44.412 yeah you know what's interesting is that 00:13:44.412 --> 00:13:47.312 i don't know that materially the fortunes of 00:13:47.312 --> 00:13:50.152 cnn have improved since chris left i mean 00:13:50.152 --> 00:13:53.972 there was a lot of criticism of chris while he was there um yes 00:13:53.972 --> 00:13:57.032 there was over multiple pages in 00:13:57.032 --> 00:14:00.132 the atlantic yeah i mean the the ratings for 00:14:00.132 --> 00:14:03.892 the morning show weren't good and um obviously the company 00:14:03.892 --> 00:14:06.712 struggled from a financial standpoint but i don't 00:14:06.712 --> 00:14:09.752 think and i could be wrong but i don't think the ratings have dramatically 00:14:09.752 --> 00:14:13.172 recovered and i don't think the i 00:14:13.172 --> 00:14:15.972 mean it's an election year so it's probably gonna they're probably gonna do 00:14:15.972 --> 00:14:19.092 better this year than they did the year before in terms of advertising but i 00:14:19.092 --> 00:14:22.372 don't think the the long-term 00:14:22.372 --> 00:14:25.972 financial picture has dramatically changed so although this 00:14:25.972 --> 00:14:32.312 might be seen as a rebuke of chris lick's tenure um i'm not sure morale is improved 00:14:32.312 --> 00:14:36.412 because it's just a different guy in the chair but i don't know that actually 00:14:36.412 --> 00:14:41.152 that much has changed from an operational perspective i have to say i did really 00:14:41.152 --> 00:14:45.172 see it as a rebuke of the Chris Licht era, 00:14:45.312 --> 00:14:52.152 because in some ways the sacking of Brian's Delta was seen as such a pivotal 00:14:52.152 --> 00:14:56.992 thing and was done deliberately to try and show by Chris Licht that they were 00:14:56.992 --> 00:14:58.172 moving on from Jeff Zucker. 00:14:59.563 --> 00:15:02.703 He never said that explicitly. 00:15:03.263 --> 00:15:06.203 Of course not, but you and I both know what it looked like. 00:15:06.663 --> 00:15:11.103 It did look like he was trying to send a message, that's for sure. 00:15:11.523 --> 00:15:17.303 So this is really interesting. And one day we will see in its full glory the 00:15:17.303 --> 00:15:22.883 Mark Thompson plan that is going to save not only CNN, but the whole of media. 00:15:23.483 --> 00:15:25.263 Well, did you see he's taking a 00:15:25.263 --> 00:15:28.903 page out of the BBC's book and launching a comedy show on Saturday night? 00:15:28.903 --> 00:15:31.943 Oh yeah it's called um i forget 00:15:31.943 --> 00:15:34.783 what it's called but i guess it has an analog at the bbc which has 00:15:34.783 --> 00:15:37.663 like a similar show so he's really working his 00:15:37.663 --> 00:15:40.743 his bbc roots going back yes because obviously for 00:15:40.743 --> 00:15:43.483 those that don't know he he ran the bbc as the director general for a 00:15:43.483 --> 00:15:48.983 number of years um and then obviously moved to your old your place the new york 00:15:48.983 --> 00:15:53.083 times and was seen as saving the new york times and moving it into the digital 00:15:53.083 --> 00:15:58.183 era and by most metrics was very successful at the new york times that was uh 00:15:58.183 --> 00:16:01.803 after the biting incident i don't want to know, 00:16:02.943 --> 00:16:05.943 you don't know about this oh god there 00:16:05.943 --> 00:16:08.783 was a story i think it was in the telegraph or 00:16:08.783 --> 00:16:14.983 something that talked about how um mark thompson had either threatened to bite 00:16:14.983 --> 00:16:20.223 somebody or actually did bite somebody and it was like played off as like a 00:16:20.223 --> 00:16:25.943 joke but um it's a remarkable thing that this guy who who basically everybody respects. 00:16:27.603 --> 00:16:31.803 It's just such a funny little antecedent in his career. 00:16:32.683 --> 00:16:39.143 Well, look, stressful jobs make us all do crazy things, don't they, 00:16:39.183 --> 00:16:41.523 Ben? Well, have you bitten anybody at work? 00:16:42.503 --> 00:16:46.983 I can't say I have, and that's not just because I work for myself. 00:16:47.443 --> 00:16:51.343 I don't know. That sounds like a dodge to me. I think if you'd bitten somebody, you would know. 00:16:51.343 --> 00:16:57.883 No, I can officially confirm in any capacity, whether working for someone else 00:16:57.883 --> 00:17:05.023 or myself, I have never bitten a co-worker, contact or confidant. I can say that. 00:17:05.963 --> 00:17:08.503 I'm glad we've got we've got that on the record. Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:08.903 --> 00:17:13.143 Happy to have that on the record. Anyway, I think this is going to be fascinating to see how it plays out. 00:17:14.083 --> 00:17:17.543 Donald Trump kind of got obsessed, didn't he, with Brian Zelta for a bit and 00:17:17.543 --> 00:17:19.463 like mimicking him and mocking him? 00:17:20.803 --> 00:17:27.423 Well uh it's been reported that donald trump watches fox news and brian stelter 00:17:27.423 --> 00:17:32.743 was a frequent target of fox news yes and so it stands to reason that that some 00:17:32.743 --> 00:17:37.703 of that might have made its way to him very interesting well well i look forward 00:17:37.703 --> 00:17:39.563 to the references in the upcoming rallies, 00:17:40.423 --> 00:17:47.083 uh i guess the next kind of big media what on earth is going on moment i've 00:17:47.083 --> 00:17:50.283 literally written and in my notes for this show, paramount WTF. 00:17:51.506 --> 00:17:58.326 So, Benjamin Mullen, Paramount, WTS. So the merger precedes a pace, 00:17:58.506 --> 00:18:02.866 for those who haven't followed it religiously, which I can't blame you. 00:18:03.846 --> 00:18:11.746 But basically, Skydance, which is this Hollywood studio that is bankrolled by Larry Ellison, 00:18:11.946 --> 00:18:16.906 who's the co-founder of Oracle and one of the world's richest people, 00:18:17.046 --> 00:18:20.066 is merging with Paramount, uh which is uh 00:18:20.066 --> 00:18:23.106 the parent company of cbs and mtv and 00:18:23.106 --> 00:18:26.846 paramount pictures they make the mission impossible films um 00:18:26.846 --> 00:18:30.586 so that's happening sometime next year and uh 00:18:30.586 --> 00:18:34.306 the latest and greatest on that is um in the 00:18:34.306 --> 00:18:37.846 u.s to own a broadcast station you have 00:18:37.846 --> 00:18:41.446 to basically file an application with the fcc 00:18:41.446 --> 00:18:44.766 which is a government regulator here and uh 00:18:44.766 --> 00:18:48.146 their application to transfer the tv station licenses from 00:18:48.146 --> 00:18:51.966 paramount to skydance just came out and 00:18:51.966 --> 00:18:55.146 uh turns out that the guy who's actually in control of 00:18:55.146 --> 00:18:58.346 paramount under the new merger is larry ellison 00:18:58.346 --> 00:19:01.286 so who could have ever seen that coming 00:19:01.286 --> 00:19:06.646 right surprise surprise um so he has this web of like shell companies that are 00:19:06.646 --> 00:19:11.286 going to acquire the voting stock from sherry redstone and the redstone family 00:19:11.286 --> 00:19:15.586 for people as you say who haven't the redstone family were the paramount family 00:19:15.586 --> 00:19:19.966 right and rumors suggest they may be. 00:19:20.846 --> 00:19:24.266 The inspiration for one set of characters in 00:19:24.266 --> 00:19:30.106 succession you and i couldn't possibly comment on that but that is not rumor 00:19:30.106 --> 00:19:36.866 has it yeah i think it's like i think the fairfax family is one of them i think 00:19:36.866 --> 00:19:40.246 the murdochs are one of them obviously the murdochs yeah and then yeah probably 00:19:40.246 --> 00:19:42.906 probably Probably there's some redstone in there. There's some in there, yeah. 00:19:44.326 --> 00:19:48.386 So, yeah, that's what's been going on with Paramount. But it hasn't been sort 00:19:48.386 --> 00:19:54.266 of plain sailing because, as you reported, and I really enjoyed your reporting 00:19:54.266 --> 00:19:57.446 on this, Edgar Bronfman Jr. 00:19:58.046 --> 00:20:02.466 Came in with an 11th hour bid to try and buy Paramount. 00:20:03.226 --> 00:20:06.386 That lasted a whole 48 hours. 00:20:08.188 --> 00:20:11.968 Before that beard disappeared and basically everything went to Skydance. 00:20:12.688 --> 00:20:16.728 Right. So it was interesting for like a brief window there. We had what some 00:20:16.728 --> 00:20:19.228 sources told me was a battle of the Nepo babies. 00:20:19.648 --> 00:20:25.588 You had Edgar Bronfman Jr., who is the heir or was the heir to the Seagram fortune. 00:20:26.128 --> 00:20:31.328 You had David Ellison, who obviously is the son of Larry Ellison. 00:20:31.748 --> 00:20:36.668 And you had Sherry Redstone, who's the daughter of Sumner Redstone. 00:20:36.668 --> 00:20:39.368 And they were all sort of like trying to figure 00:20:39.368 --> 00:20:43.188 out what was going to happen to this family empire so uh 00:20:43.188 --> 00:20:46.688 but what happened was that his bid fell apart and skydance 00:20:46.688 --> 00:20:50.068 won because that bid you were 00:20:50.068 --> 00:20:54.768 trying to explain it to me off air it was basically a whole it was kind of packaging 00:20:54.768 --> 00:20:57.948 together a whole bunch of people and things wasn't it wasn't as straightforward 00:20:57.948 --> 00:21:03.748 as the skydance one right he had He had a bunch of people that were like funneling 00:21:03.748 --> 00:21:08.088 money to him as part of his bidding group, including Stephen Paul, 00:21:08.348 --> 00:21:10.388 the producer behind the Baby Geniuses franchise. 00:21:11.588 --> 00:21:19.488 And he initially had Bain, which is a private equity funder in the U.S., 00:21:19.488 --> 00:21:21.888 and that ultimately fell apart, 00:21:22.008 --> 00:21:26.608 I think, because they didn't have enough time to do due diligence on the opportunity. 00:21:27.428 --> 00:21:31.308 So, yeah, his funding, unfortunately, fell apart at the 11th hour. 00:21:31.908 --> 00:21:36.628 And why do the Redstone family, this has been going on for a long time. 00:21:36.788 --> 00:21:40.188 Every media story I read has mentioned this. 00:21:40.228 --> 00:21:42.928 Every time I listen to a media podcast, another media podcast, 00:21:43.188 --> 00:21:45.048 people are talking about this. 00:21:45.128 --> 00:21:47.548 You've been reporting on it for a long time. 00:21:47.868 --> 00:21:53.988 Why have the Redstones been so keen to get rid of an iconic brand such as Paramount? 00:21:55.708 --> 00:22:02.088 Um, well, the TV business, the traditional TV business in the U.S. 00:22:02.108 --> 00:22:03.788 Is under a lot of pressure. Sure. 00:22:03.968 --> 00:22:10.408 And that has put a lot of pressure on media valuations across the board. And so, um... 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.720 If you look at the value of Paramount stock over the last five years, 00:22:15.520 --> 00:22:19.740 even after the merger with CBS, it's just kept going down and down and down. 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:25.680 So one could argue that it's a good time to get out of the traditional TV business. 00:22:26.120 --> 00:22:28.740 They just want to cash in their chips and move on. 00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:32.440 That's something that I've heard from people, yeah. 00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:37.680 Really does sound like a plot line from Succession, doesn't it? 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.920 Yeah i guess the yeah the roys did sell did sell their family business right 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:47.880 and the other and the roy children tried to buy the other family business right 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:56.980 and they sold to uh a tech guy right yeah it's almost like some of that series was based on real life, 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:03.420 who yeah i think they were paying very much it's been really fascinating So 00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:05.480 does this Paramount stuff, 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:10.640 is this now done, sign sealed, delivered, when you're not going to have to chase 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.900 after investment bankers and private equity people and lawyers putting this together? 00:23:15.620 --> 00:23:19.060 This is done. Skydance, Larry Ellison are running Paramount. 00:23:19.560 --> 00:23:23.740 Yeah, barring some 11th hour intervention from government regulators, 00:23:24.020 --> 00:23:26.940 I don't foresee this deal falling apart at this point. Okay. 00:23:27.460 --> 00:23:33.820 And what happens next then for Paramount? Is it going to be stripped for parts? 00:23:34.320 --> 00:23:39.820 Is there going to be extensive cuts to it? What's actually going to happen to Paramount? 00:23:41.580 --> 00:23:45.400 Well, immediately, they're going to lay off a lot of people. 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:50.740 They're currently cutting $500 million from their annual expenses. 00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:54.960 So that's going to result in a lot of layoffs, probably many of them this month. 00:23:55.780 --> 00:24:02.960 There's also efforts underway among some people at the company to organize management 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.000 buyouts of certain assets. I think there's been reporting that. 00:24:07.585 --> 00:24:12.825 Uh, BET, uh, which is a black entertainment television, an influential network 00:24:12.825 --> 00:24:17.505 in the U S is a target for, for a management buyout. 00:24:17.705 --> 00:24:22.565 Um, and then long-term after the deal closes, I think the big question is, 00:24:22.745 --> 00:24:28.785 um, you know, to what extent David Ellison and the new management team are going 00:24:28.785 --> 00:24:31.725 to be able to, to, to turn around the investor narrative. 00:24:31.885 --> 00:24:35.165 Um, Paramount has been in trying to 00:24:35.165 --> 00:24:38.245 um sort of like cross cross the 00:24:38.245 --> 00:24:41.045 the river in terms of 00:24:41.045 --> 00:24:43.825 streaming and and get to a place where across the 00:24:43.825 --> 00:24:46.625 river for streaming very good get to a place where 00:24:46.625 --> 00:24:49.385 like it's streaming business is uh throwing off a lot 00:24:49.385 --> 00:24:52.305 of cash um that takes a lot of investment i 00:24:52.305 --> 00:24:55.885 think in the last quarter their streaming business was profitable um 00:24:55.885 --> 00:24:59.445 there are other studios that like sony that have adopted this sort of arms dealer 00:24:59.445 --> 00:25:02.705 mentality where they're just selling and they're not really doing much original 00:25:02.705 --> 00:25:06.485 streaming so the question is to what extent they're going to be able to turn 00:25:06.485 --> 00:25:13.505 that around basically yeah because paramount plus hasn't really laid a glove on disney plus netflix. 00:25:14.185 --> 00:25:17.305 Even apple tv plus i can't remember the numbers offhand 00:25:17.305 --> 00:25:20.345 well i think apple is somewhat 00:25:20.345 --> 00:25:23.205 they they they can afford to lose a lot of money on 00:25:23.205 --> 00:25:26.105 streaming as can amazon but i think my 00:25:26.105 --> 00:25:28.905 impression is that it like the the threshold that you need really 00:25:28.905 --> 00:25:31.925 to make a profitable successful global media 00:25:31.925 --> 00:25:35.565 business is to 200 million subscribers um and 00:25:35.565 --> 00:25:38.625 that takes a lot of capital to get to yeah um 00:25:38.625 --> 00:25:42.365 amazon netflix um disney probably 00:25:42.365 --> 00:25:45.045 are going to get there um but i think it's an 00:25:45.045 --> 00:25:47.865 open question about whether there's there's room for 00:25:47.865 --> 00:25:51.165 a fourth or a fifth streamer in there yeah they've 00:25:51.165 --> 00:25:53.985 always seemed like what i mean there's some quite good stuff on paramount plus they 00:25:53.985 --> 00:25:56.785 obviously have some classic franchises i quite 00:25:56.785 --> 00:25:59.605 enjoyed special ops lionesses which is coming 00:25:59.605 --> 00:26:02.365 back for another series but it doesn't it's never 00:26:02.365 --> 00:26:06.585 the stream what's what's special ops lionesses just an action series i love 00:26:06.585 --> 00:26:12.585 crummy cheapo action series learning a lot about you yeah yeah anything that's 00:26:12.585 --> 00:26:18.025 really not engaging my brain i'm really in favor of yeah um so that was good 00:26:18.025 --> 00:26:21.225 fun and they they did try and pick that 00:26:21.305 --> 00:26:24.525 as one of their big kind of tentpole pieces of content. 00:26:24.665 --> 00:26:27.305 I don't think it broke through like some of the others. I mean, 00:26:27.305 --> 00:26:29.245 it was certainly not like a Ted Lasso moment. 00:26:29.485 --> 00:26:32.045 And they haven't really had one of those at Paramount+. 00:26:33.395 --> 00:26:36.635 Um i guess you could argue yellowstone but but 00:26:36.635 --> 00:26:39.875 i think yellowstone streams on if i remember 00:26:39.875 --> 00:26:42.875 right it streams on max yeah and it 00:26:42.875 --> 00:26:45.795 feels also a bit yeah it doesn't feel quite the same 00:26:45.795 --> 00:26:48.595 because of the way it came out but yeah that's the closest for sure 00:26:48.595 --> 00:26:51.535 but yeah they're trying to do that they're trying to build 00:26:51.535 --> 00:26:54.895 a lot of franchises around the yellowstone universe yes um 00:26:54.895 --> 00:26:57.615 and uh yeah i 00:26:57.615 --> 00:27:01.375 think that's been their best their best entry so far yeah 00:27:01.375 --> 00:27:04.715 it's this is a really interesting well i hope for 00:27:04.715 --> 00:27:07.715 your the sake of your sanity this goes through quite smoothly and 00:27:07.715 --> 00:27:10.755 you don't have to do any more interventions of 00:27:10.755 --> 00:27:13.535 like 11th hour deals i think by this 00:27:13.535 --> 00:27:16.415 time it would be like a 13th hour deal wouldn't it at this stage 00:27:16.415 --> 00:27:19.915 i know i honestly i can't if if that happens uh 00:27:19.915 --> 00:27:23.415 somebody else is gonna have to take the reins yeah i 00:27:23.415 --> 00:27:28.095 have to say as we've been discussing this benjamin has looked increasingly broken as 00:27:28.095 --> 00:27:30.915 we've been sort of going through this yeah yeah a little bit 00:27:30.915 --> 00:27:33.975 of ptsd coming through so i'm about to bite somebody like 00:27:33.975 --> 00:27:36.735 yeah um or by 00:27:36.735 --> 00:27:39.535 paramount just to end it all it could go either way it could go 00:27:39.535 --> 00:27:42.675 either way um what else are you looking at what 00:27:42.675 --> 00:27:47.815 else do you think we should have on the agenda uh for the coming weeks uh i 00:27:47.815 --> 00:27:52.575 mean in the u.s obviously we're we're obsessed with ourselves and the election 00:27:52.575 --> 00:27:57.995 is a big deal over here so I expect a lot of stories about how the media is 00:27:57.995 --> 00:27:59.935 covering the election and. 00:28:00.915 --> 00:28:09.475 Obviously we have you know we have presidential debates coming up for our broadcast networks and. 00:28:11.358 --> 00:28:17.038 And yeah, oh, the other thing is, this is like a pretty nerdy media business nerd thing. Perfect. 00:28:18.318 --> 00:28:23.538 But, you know, there are all of these cable deals that are coming up with TV programmers. 00:28:23.718 --> 00:28:30.438 And, you know, if those deals go well, it could salvage companies like Warner 00:28:30.438 --> 00:28:34.738 Brothers Discovery that have seen their stock price suffer. 00:28:34.938 --> 00:28:40.238 So that's going to be interesting to watch. I'm personally excited for the legal 00:28:40.238 --> 00:28:41.658 battle over the NBA rights. 00:28:42.238 --> 00:28:45.018 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I don't know. 00:28:45.618 --> 00:28:49.718 Yeah, because, go on, just quickly explain the background to that story, 00:28:49.798 --> 00:28:50.858 because that's been quite fun to watch. 00:28:51.318 --> 00:28:57.838 Yeah, so basically, the NBA just signed a bunch of deals with TV broadcast partners. 00:28:58.078 --> 00:29:04.118 Up until recently, one of the people that had a new deal or had a deal with 00:29:04.118 --> 00:29:09.778 the NBA was Because Warner Brothers Discovery, I think their deal expires next year. Via TNT. 00:29:10.718 --> 00:29:16.138 Yeah, through TNT, one of their cable channels. That deal is expiring, 00:29:16.138 --> 00:29:18.138 and they failed to get a renewal. 00:29:18.358 --> 00:29:21.858 And NBC, which is another big U.S. 00:29:21.898 --> 00:29:27.578 Media company, swooped in and got a TV deal. And so Warner Brothers Discovery 00:29:27.578 --> 00:29:33.498 ended up suing the NBA over language in their contract that said they had the 00:29:33.498 --> 00:29:35.058 rights to match any other bid. 00:29:35.258 --> 00:29:37.938 They said they actually had the right to match Amazon's bid. 00:29:39.031 --> 00:29:41.911 Uh the nba disagreed and now they're in now 00:29:41.911 --> 00:29:44.671 they're in a lawsuit which is going to be really fun yeah 00:29:44.671 --> 00:29:47.391 because tnt here we are have tnt here in the uk and 00:29:47.391 --> 00:29:51.811 that is where basketball is shown it used to be called bt sports now tnt sports 00:29:51.811 --> 00:29:56.191 um so it's all and then that's what goes into discovery plus so it's all part 00:29:56.191 --> 00:30:02.291 of the same global uh brand now so it's going to be i you know i find these 00:30:02.291 --> 00:30:07.091 kind of sports rights deals really fascinating um and it was quite a shock when 00:30:07.131 --> 00:30:10.131 Warner Brothers slash TNT lost the NBA. 00:30:10.271 --> 00:30:14.071 Because they've had it for, what, 20 years or something? They've had it. In a long time, yeah. 00:30:14.831 --> 00:30:18.631 And they were kind of known for their studio show inside the NBA. 00:30:18.991 --> 00:30:21.951 Yes. Yeah, so it was a big blow. 00:30:22.851 --> 00:30:26.991 Wasn't David Zaslav kind of quite dismissive of the NBA first? 00:30:27.031 --> 00:30:29.131 So the NBA went to Amazon. 00:30:29.351 --> 00:30:34.531 Wasn't there a bit of, did it get a bit personal? He said on an early call, 00:30:34.751 --> 00:30:40.491 either with analysts or on an investor call, that they didn't need the NBA. 00:30:41.351 --> 00:30:45.891 Yes. I think he walked back those remarks. And I think one thing that I've heard 00:30:45.891 --> 00:30:47.491 from people around Warner Brothers 00:30:47.491 --> 00:30:53.751 Discovery is that it's possible that by paying less for programming, 00:30:53.951 --> 00:30:58.751 if they can get a great renewal with some of these cable companies while paying 00:30:58.751 --> 00:31:01.391 less for the NBA, they'll be more profitable. 00:31:01.911 --> 00:31:06.671 So there's an argument to be made that they could actually lose the NBA and be better off. 00:31:06.831 --> 00:31:10.631 But I think that's going to hinge on whether they can get cable distributors 00:31:10.631 --> 00:31:13.291 to pay them the same amount of money for different programming. 00:31:14.511 --> 00:31:16.991 I look forward to you sending me the spreadsheet of those numbers. 00:31:17.151 --> 00:31:20.571 Benjamin, thank you so much for coming back to the edition. 00:31:20.911 --> 00:31:26.271 People have to keep up with your reporting at NYTimes.com. Where else can they be in touch with you? 00:31:27.751 --> 00:31:31.731 That's it. Just read my stuff, please. please, and subscribe to The Edition. 00:31:32.291 --> 00:31:34.131 Thank you. Yes, I would love you to do that. 00:31:35.151 --> 00:31:42.091 It's only a mere five a month, so that makes all the difference if you can sign 00:31:42.091 --> 00:31:43.891 up there at theedition.net. 00:31:44.271 --> 00:31:48.931 We're going to have more great guests coming on the show in the future. So I'll see you then. 00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:58.575 Music.