WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.840 Music. 00:00:09.689 --> 00:00:15.309 Hello and welcome to the edition podcast. I'm at home, football isn't. 00:00:17.009 --> 00:00:21.609 It's another glorious defeat for the England side. I'm, as ever, 00:00:21.749 --> 00:00:25.269 your host Charlotte Henry, recovering from a tumultuous weekend of sport. 00:00:25.349 --> 00:00:31.929 And this week I'm joined by Rob Ray, the former esteemed BBC Newsroom journalist. 00:00:32.229 --> 00:00:35.789 Very experienced. We're going to talk about all things sporting coverage. How are you, Rob? 00:00:35.969 --> 00:00:40.269 I'm fine, I'm fine. Still recovering just as you are. Yeah, are you feeling all right after? 00:00:40.409 --> 00:00:44.229 And we've just learned as we signed on to record the show that Gareth Southgate has departed. 00:00:44.869 --> 00:00:47.429 I mean, I think we both kind of thought that anyway was coming, 00:00:47.549 --> 00:00:52.429 but it's, and I think that is part of the media story, by the way, 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:56.209 because in some ways Gareth Southgate's story is a media story, right? 00:00:56.309 --> 00:01:03.009 From the missed penalty in 96 to the Pizza Hut advert to the montage on Sunday night. 00:01:03.349 --> 00:01:07.689 He's the, well, he is the TV story. He's one of the TV stories of this year as well, 00:01:07.689 --> 00:01:10.989 well because it's the whole sort of redemption arc isn't it um 00:01:10.989 --> 00:01:14.709 or almost well yeah 00:01:14.709 --> 00:01:17.369 because he starts off as as you know with all the 00:01:17.369 --> 00:01:20.489 pundits criticizing his team selection and criticizing 00:01:20.489 --> 00:01:26.249 his um uh style of play and you know calling for something else and we must 00:01:26.249 --> 00:01:29.189 play our best players and why isn't greelish in the squad and all that sort 00:01:29.189 --> 00:01:33.449 of stuff and by the semi-finals it's like sort of uh it's almost as if they 00:01:33.449 --> 00:01:37.069 hadn't been criticizing him you've got you know shira and turning around and 00:01:37.069 --> 00:01:39.569 saying, you know, well, why did the media criticize him? 00:01:39.689 --> 00:01:42.469 You know, he's got us through. And it's like, well, you were part of that. You are the media. 00:01:43.349 --> 00:01:46.509 So there's a whole redemption arc for sort of, you know, he's come back and 00:01:46.509 --> 00:01:48.829 he's got us to another final. 00:01:49.009 --> 00:01:52.389 And then, of course, then everything goes wrong in the final. 00:01:52.489 --> 00:01:55.389 But, you know, it's the typical media thing. 00:01:56.438 --> 00:01:59.298 Story of how you how you treat an individual in what is essentially 00:01:59.298 --> 00:02:02.258 a team game yeah and i think there's some of that happening 00:02:02.258 --> 00:02:05.458 with some of the players as well notably jude bellingham 00:02:05.458 --> 00:02:08.438 and harry kane are sort of becoming the national scapegoats which is something 00:02:08.438 --> 00:02:12.778 we're very very good at doing in the british media in the british public more 00:02:12.778 --> 00:02:17.558 widely now you and i could gossip about football forever and in fact do so in 00:02:17.558 --> 00:02:22.758 person but this is a media show we wanted to take a step back after the 00:02:22.878 --> 00:02:26.338 month of coverage and take a look at it. Look, the numbers were huge. 00:02:26.498 --> 00:02:28.678 In the semi-final, cleared 20 million. 00:02:29.198 --> 00:02:31.158 I mean, I haven't seen the numbers 00:02:31.158 --> 00:02:33.838 for the final, but it'll be more than that. It will be huge numbers. 00:02:35.578 --> 00:02:39.878 And yet there's always things we can improve. And obviously it was split between 00:02:39.878 --> 00:02:42.058 the BBC and ITV, which is always interesting. 00:02:44.058 --> 00:02:48.918 I guess we should start, let's start on a positive with the stars of the coverage. 00:02:49.078 --> 00:02:52.738 And you and I both agree that it was ITV's kind of refereeing, 00:02:52.758 --> 00:02:55.958 analyst Christina Unkle who I have to say I'd 00:02:55.958 --> 00:02:58.938 never heard of before this tournament and I hope appears in 00:02:58.938 --> 00:03:02.338 many more to come and if I were Sky Sports 00:03:02.338 --> 00:03:04.978 or the BBC for Match of the Day I'd be speaking to her 00:03:04.978 --> 00:03:07.598 agent pretty promptly I had to google her I 00:03:07.598 --> 00:03:10.958 didn't know where she came from but apparently she's a big star in the US um 00:03:10.958 --> 00:03:14.018 she's done CBS's Champions League cover 00:03:14.018 --> 00:03:16.858 yes she knows an awful awful lot 00:03:16.858 --> 00:03:20.778 about football and its laws far more so than our our own pundits I thought i 00:03:20.778 --> 00:03:25.658 thought she was great everything she said was spot on she didn't um she didn't 00:03:25.658 --> 00:03:28.518 sort of prevaricate she would say this is what the law is this is what this 00:03:28.518 --> 00:03:33.278 is why this was given this was why this wasn't given and i particularly liked 00:03:33.278 --> 00:03:35.478 her performance during the semi-final. 00:03:36.258 --> 00:03:39.838 When the england semi-final when she quite rightly 00:03:39.838 --> 00:03:42.758 that should never have been looked at that wasn't a 00:03:42.758 --> 00:03:46.898 penalty it wasn't a close decision and she 00:03:46.898 --> 00:03:49.758 faced a bit of criticism for that i thought from the pundits 00:03:49.758 --> 00:03:52.678 in the studio say oh but it's been given and that's that that's a 00:03:52.678 --> 00:03:55.358 penalty in my book all that sort of stuff and she said no it 00:03:55.358 --> 00:03:58.118 wasn't and she kept with it and she uh even when the decision 00:03:58.118 --> 00:04:00.838 was given as a penalty she she stayed stuck to her 00:04:00.838 --> 00:04:04.178 guns which were completely right and so that wasn't a penalty i thought she 00:04:04.178 --> 00:04:10.218 was absolutely she's self-contained she's self-aware um she knows what she's 00:04:10.218 --> 00:04:16.458 talking about and she um she she never she never um she never wavers she never 00:04:16.458 --> 00:04:19.018 Never looks flustered. I thought she was fantastic. 00:04:19.378 --> 00:04:24.118 She was fantastic. What I liked about her, there has been a growing trend in 00:04:24.118 --> 00:04:25.978 British sports media and football media. 00:04:26.418 --> 00:04:32.038 And I think imported from the US NFL coverage to have a kind of refereeing analyst, 00:04:32.138 --> 00:04:34.758 a sports analyst. And it's normally a retired player. 00:04:35.769 --> 00:04:38.769 Um referee and there is frankly a 00:04:38.769 --> 00:04:41.589 bit of a sense of an old boys club but they're sticking up they're 00:04:41.589 --> 00:04:44.329 sticking up for their mates the people they've trained with the people 00:04:44.329 --> 00:04:48.669 they've worked with for years and you know christina uncle an american woman 00:04:48.669 --> 00:04:53.489 came blazing in wasn't part of the old boys club was having none of it spoke 00:04:53.489 --> 00:04:57.049 in this really clear way was happy to say if the decisions were correct when 00:04:57.049 --> 00:05:01.049 they weren't but happy to criticize what was happening when they weren't And 00:05:01.049 --> 00:05:03.349 it actually made for useful commentary, 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:05.889 not just a way to fill the time. 00:05:06.129 --> 00:05:08.549 I thought so too. I thought so too. She was fantastic. 00:05:08.789 --> 00:05:13.869 My other star of the tournament was ITV's Karen Carney. 00:05:14.629 --> 00:05:17.129 Yes. Admit your bias, please. 00:05:18.009 --> 00:05:21.969 I am biased. She is former Chelsea, but she was very, very good. 00:05:22.029 --> 00:05:23.669 She didn't take any nonsense from anybody. 00:05:24.749 --> 00:05:27.989 She made her points on football really, really well. 00:05:27.989 --> 00:05:31.049 Um she doesn't um 00:05:31.049 --> 00:05:33.969 go for the sort of whole the the banter thing 00:05:33.969 --> 00:05:36.989 that annoys me so much between 00:05:36.989 --> 00:05:39.749 you know people like with people like shira and even micka 00:05:39.749 --> 00:05:43.069 richards um she gets 00:05:43.069 --> 00:05:46.009 to the heart of it and what she says is actually interesting it's 00:05:46.009 --> 00:05:49.409 actually something that i i wouldn't have thought of before and she 00:05:49.409 --> 00:05:52.449 uses their knowledge so i thought she was great yes um 00:05:52.449 --> 00:05:55.129 inevitably to be female pundits of which there 00:05:55.129 --> 00:05:57.949 are a growing number thankfully tend to get most of the abuse 00:05:57.949 --> 00:06:01.549 online but that's just that's rather 00:06:01.549 --> 00:06:04.689 typical isn't it of the world we live in i'd say from my 00:06:04.689 --> 00:06:07.489 point of view i i i i would say this 00:06:07.489 --> 00:06:10.469 would wouldn't i but i do like to talk try to treat people equally 00:06:10.469 --> 00:06:14.669 if i can i think there are some very very bad female um pundits 00:06:14.669 --> 00:06:17.729 and some very very good ones so karen i think is good any aluka 00:06:17.729 --> 00:06:22.469 i think is good yeah um alex scott 00:06:22.469 --> 00:06:25.649 i'm not so so sure about that sort of thing so i i don't think 00:06:25.649 --> 00:06:28.529 you can say all female good all female bad or no well that 00:06:28.529 --> 00:06:32.029 or even the other way around it just depends on the personality and 00:06:32.029 --> 00:06:34.809 karen's got it she's she's got it in spades yeah she 00:06:34.809 --> 00:06:37.629 does my favorite while we're talking while. 00:06:37.629 --> 00:06:42.049 We're sticking with itv for the moment is always ali mccoist because he's 00:06:42.049 --> 00:06:44.889 just having fun he is like you and i would be if we were paid to 00:06:44.889 --> 00:06:47.949 talk about football um he's just having fun 00:06:47.949 --> 00:06:51.069 and i pretend anything else does he no he's having 00:06:51.069 --> 00:06:57.049 fun and i respect it um i'm here for it i guess we have to talk about the bbc. 00:06:57.049 --> 00:07:02.489 As the sort of national broadcaster and your former employer um always look 00:07:02.489 --> 00:07:08.109 i've written about it plenty lots of controversy swirling around gary lineker the whole time because, 00:07:09.029 --> 00:07:15.029 even though the bbc rewrote social media rules for him he seems to be trying 00:07:15.029 --> 00:07:17.649 to push the limits bits of them with his more political opinions. 00:07:18.669 --> 00:07:21.109 But he, he's obviously leading the coverage. 00:07:22.229 --> 00:07:26.769 Then there's, you know, the likes of Alan Shearer and so on and so forth that 00:07:26.769 --> 00:07:32.109 I have to say, I really can't deal with Alan Shearer on commentary. It's, 00:07:33.510 --> 00:07:37.950 Not all the things you were saying about Karen Carney. He's the opposite. I agree. 00:07:38.290 --> 00:07:41.690 I agree. I think the problem with Shearer is that he spent his first few years 00:07:41.690 --> 00:07:47.370 as a commentator or as a pundit being criticized for not saying anything of interest at all. 00:07:47.450 --> 00:07:49.670 He would just say the obvious and the banal. 00:07:49.890 --> 00:07:53.070 And I think he's taken that too much on board. And he thinks every time he opens 00:07:53.070 --> 00:07:54.650 his mouth, he's got to say something controversial. 00:07:55.770 --> 00:07:59.310 And almost everything he says is ludicrous. 00:08:01.230 --> 00:08:04.350 His commentary on the football itself is poor. 00:08:06.890 --> 00:08:12.310 He makes up these ridiculous things like the pressure is for tyres thing what 00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:15.950 is that all about it doesn't give you anything it doesn't add anything to your, 00:08:17.190 --> 00:08:19.450 knowledge about the game he's terrible, 00:08:21.230 --> 00:08:25.290 why then give us some insight for someone that's been in the you didn't work 00:08:25.290 --> 00:08:28.630 on the sports side of the BBC so I don't want to put you in too much of a difficult 00:08:28.630 --> 00:08:32.610 position but why would a broadcast of the calibre of the BBC, 00:08:32.830 --> 00:08:35.850 of the national and international standing of the BBC, 00:08:36.650 --> 00:08:40.810 if you and I as dedicated football fans are looking at, listening to this and 00:08:40.810 --> 00:08:45.770 watching this going, this is not helping my enjoyment of the sport I love, 00:08:46.850 --> 00:08:48.810 why is the BBC persisting with him? 00:08:49.090 --> 00:08:52.590 Well, with Shearer it's obvious, isn't it, Charlotte? I mean, it's the name. 00:08:53.350 --> 00:08:56.430 It's purely and simply the name. But they would have done... 00:08:57.870 --> 00:09:03.110 And they will have done polls about, you know, how it's how it goes down. 00:09:03.190 --> 00:09:08.210 And what seems to go down is that there seems to be a liking for that sort of 00:09:08.210 --> 00:09:12.770 blokey banter thing, which Shearer and Lineker have. 00:09:12.850 --> 00:09:16.290 They have managed to a fashion. They've managed some sort of double act that 00:09:16.290 --> 00:09:18.430 they seem to like. I mean, I like Lineker as a presenter. 00:09:18.670 --> 00:09:21.830 I think he's really good. I think he's clear. He's focused on what he's doing. 00:09:21.890 --> 00:09:26.150 But when he gets into that double act with Shearer, it's almost unwatchable. 00:09:27.870 --> 00:09:32.970 I have a problem too. I'm very fond of Micah Richards when he's simply talking 00:09:32.970 --> 00:09:36.970 about football, but when he gets involved in that sort of triangle of the three 00:09:36.970 --> 00:09:39.190 blokes trying to banter each other, 00:09:39.530 --> 00:09:44.010 he comes across as like a younger brother trying to impress the other two, 00:09:44.110 --> 00:09:46.110 and it doesn't work for me. 00:09:46.210 --> 00:09:48.490 But I'm not the target audience, and nor are you, Charlotte. 00:09:48.610 --> 00:09:50.030 We want to watch football. 00:09:50.430 --> 00:09:54.430 Other people are more interested in sort of, I don't know, the personalities. 00:09:54.430 --> 00:09:57.350 Personalities and it's it's yeah i mean michael richards 00:09:57.350 --> 00:10:00.150 is at least a bit of a personality compared to the other two 00:10:00.150 --> 00:10:02.850 i mean he does when well i think 00:10:02.850 --> 00:10:05.730 when he's asked to talk football by himself and he's 00:10:05.730 --> 00:10:09.410 given a chance by himself he comes up with interesting stuff but when he's when 00:10:09.410 --> 00:10:14.050 he's involved in that sort of three-way um and forth yeah joking yeah the the 00:10:14.050 --> 00:10:17.690 yeah it doesn't it doesn't work at all and it's not his fault i don't think 00:10:17.690 --> 00:10:20.790 he's he's at fault and i still don't think that's the worst thing about the 00:10:20.790 --> 00:10:23.030 bbc's coverage by the way do you want to ask what the worst thing is? 00:10:23.170 --> 00:10:25.850 No, I want to sit back and listen while you tell me what the worst thing is. 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:28.810 Danny Murphy is the worst thing about the BBC. It's okay. 00:10:30.370 --> 00:10:34.730 His commentary is unbelievable. Everything he says is wrong. 00:10:36.090 --> 00:10:40.810 He'll say things like, one thing I noticed was, oh, during the French semi-final, 00:10:42.150 --> 00:10:47.390 and the second Spanish goal, the ball comes across, it's knocked in by a defender, 00:10:47.410 --> 00:10:50.910 and he says, well, that's not an own goal, because it was a really talented 00:10:50.910 --> 00:10:53.350 a bit of play and a lovely shot. 00:10:53.430 --> 00:10:56.570 It's like, yes, but the player deflected it into his own goal. 00:10:56.610 --> 00:10:59.470 And I don't care what UEFA gave it as, that was an own goal. 00:11:01.048 --> 00:11:04.648 That's just one example. He does this all the time. 00:11:06.728 --> 00:11:10.668 He is by far the worst commentator I've ever heard on football, 00:11:10.868 --> 00:11:12.948 and that includes Sam Matterface and ITV as well. 00:11:13.348 --> 00:11:17.448 Wow. You're pulling no punches. I know, I'm shopping. You're pulling no punches here. 00:11:17.768 --> 00:11:21.408 I am not. I actually don't have as much of a problem with Sam Matterface as a lot of other people do. 00:11:21.828 --> 00:11:25.868 I want to step back from just slacking off people, as fun as it is. 00:11:25.908 --> 00:11:32.528 We can resume that in the pub at another time. I want to talk about the logistics of an event like this, 00:11:32.688 --> 00:11:37.128 because, first of all, there's obviously broadcasters from all around the world 00:11:37.128 --> 00:11:42.108 there, of which the BBC and ITV are the ones we watch, but they're not the only ones. 00:11:42.188 --> 00:11:45.888 You know, there's all sorts of coverage from all around the world on that. 00:11:47.428 --> 00:11:50.208 How you've worked on big events in the bbc again 00:11:50.208 --> 00:11:53.528 not sporting events but election nights and 00:11:53.528 --> 00:11:57.148 other big set piece events talk me 00:11:57.148 --> 00:12:02.628 through the planning process of these big events and the kind of logistics of 00:12:02.628 --> 00:12:06.668 setting them up oh god it's incredibly daunting i mean i remember doing the 00:12:06.668 --> 00:12:13.968 logistics for um just for bbc news on our champion the champions league final um and that's just a 00:12:13.988 --> 00:12:16.828 BBC News operation so it's um yeah they don't have the coverage 00:12:16.828 --> 00:12:21.368 yeah they don't actually sort of cover from inside um speaking 00:12:21.368 --> 00:12:24.048 as a producer it's it's horrific you're you know 00:12:24.048 --> 00:12:26.888 you you're you're you're you're 00:12:26.888 --> 00:12:30.328 you know you from a month before you're involved in discussions 00:12:30.328 --> 00:12:33.868 almost every day with with with satellite truck 00:12:33.868 --> 00:12:37.128 um engineers and logistics people 00:12:37.128 --> 00:12:40.068 and then you're trying to sort of um work it out 00:12:40.068 --> 00:12:42.968 you know work out positions abroad and so on I mean 00:12:42.968 --> 00:12:45.748 luckily for the in when it comes down to the euros and 00:12:45.748 --> 00:12:48.488 things like that the bbc have got these planned years and years in 00:12:48.488 --> 00:12:51.288 advance i was going to say it must be more than a month absolutely no this 00:12:51.288 --> 00:12:57.388 is like i say that was just for news so um i think for the in probably for the 00:12:57.388 --> 00:13:01.168 individual producers it's not not so bad because they've got the the the the 00:13:01.168 --> 00:13:04.908 weight of the bbc behind that they've had years of negotiations they'll have 00:13:04.908 --> 00:13:08.708 they'll have rented out their studio you know like i say months and months in 00:13:08.708 --> 00:13:10.028 advance. They know where it's going to be. 00:13:11.768 --> 00:13:16.508 Bringing all the equipment together is tricky these days, because a lot of it 00:13:16.508 --> 00:13:19.708 is a lot of it's freelance. 00:13:19.788 --> 00:13:23.088 So you're not bringing your own equipment over a lot of the time you're hiring 00:13:23.088 --> 00:13:26.168 stuff from, from companies abroad and so on. 00:13:27.828 --> 00:13:30.628 That makes all the logistics trickier. But on the other hand, 00:13:30.628 --> 00:13:35.368 you don't then have to sort of, you know, move it back and forth across borders. Exactly. Um, 00:13:37.246 --> 00:13:40.266 in terms of how you 00:13:40.266 --> 00:13:43.666 cover it as well i mean in terms of where you anchor from in 00:13:43.666 --> 00:13:46.526 terms of you know sort of how you provide you know sort of coverage 00:13:46.526 --> 00:13:49.366 from from from from inside grounds as well 00:13:49.366 --> 00:13:53.506 that that all becomes um very tricky as well um the 00:13:53.506 --> 00:13:58.026 one thing that does make it easier of course for things like euros is that you've 00:13:58.026 --> 00:14:03.106 got you're using the host broadcasters actual match footage right so this gets 00:14:03.106 --> 00:14:05.526 you on to one of the things that i think is the worst bit of the coverage oh 00:14:05.526 --> 00:14:10.286 yeah uh i mean the so yeah so you don't have to produce you provide your own sort of 17 camera, 00:14:10.946 --> 00:14:15.626 shoot with an outside broadcaster you're just relying on on what they produce 00:14:15.626 --> 00:14:16.906 but the trouble is you're then 00:14:16.906 --> 00:14:21.326 in their hands as we well know so you might want to see footage of the. 00:14:22.806 --> 00:14:26.146 The disallowed penalty um and what 00:14:26.146 --> 00:14:28.866 you get well you want you want to see an action replay of that 00:14:28.866 --> 00:14:32.826 instead what you're going to get is an action replay of i don't 00:14:32.826 --> 00:14:35.806 know the serbian defender's face as he's taken off 00:14:35.806 --> 00:14:39.686 the pitch for you know as you know tony cruz 00:14:39.686 --> 00:14:43.066 clapping or something it is unbelievable i couldn't 00:14:43.066 --> 00:14:46.506 believe how bad the host broadcast uh broadcasters 00:14:46.506 --> 00:14:49.806 coverage was and i don't know because i don't know i wasn't involved in that 00:14:49.806 --> 00:14:53.806 whether the host broadcaster is actually uefa which is sometimes the case or 00:14:53.806 --> 00:14:58.406 fifa in terms of the world cup or whether it was the german tv providing the 00:14:58.406 --> 00:15:03.266 um the host coverage all i know is it was incredibly bad so you're saying i 00:15:03.266 --> 00:15:05.146 don't you you might want to watch a replay of this, that, or the other. 00:15:05.646 --> 00:15:08.186 I just want to watch what's actually happening on the pitch. 00:15:08.366 --> 00:15:10.626 And there were moments where big things were happening. 00:15:10.966 --> 00:15:14.866 Yeah. And some nonsense replay was happening and you couldn't see it. 00:15:14.966 --> 00:15:17.546 Yeah, that was my big problem. Absolutely. I don't mind replays. 00:15:17.546 --> 00:15:23.066 What I do not want to see is a slow motion close-up of a player's face reacting 00:15:23.066 --> 00:15:25.686 to something that wasn't very important in the first place. 00:15:26.006 --> 00:15:29.586 But that's what we got throughout the tournament. And I don't want to miss live 00:15:29.586 --> 00:15:31.086 stuff that's happening. 00:15:31.546 --> 00:15:37.506 I just want to get back to the logistics. So dealing with getting the kit over, there was, of course... 00:15:38.579 --> 00:15:42.499 Another spanner thrown in the works for a broadcaster like the BBC, 00:15:42.839 --> 00:15:49.399 which is that the then Prime Minister Rishi Sunak decided to throw a general election. 00:15:49.499 --> 00:15:55.159 He called a general election, which is a huge moment for all broadcasters, 00:15:55.199 --> 00:15:58.999 but especially the BBC, as you have personal experience of. 00:15:59.219 --> 00:16:03.899 So they were having to contend with these two major events. They thought they 00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:07.639 could do the Euros in the summer of sport and the Olympics and then probably 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:09.319 deal with an election October, November. 00:16:10.099 --> 00:16:14.579 But that didn't happen. For the first couple of weeks of the Euros, 00:16:14.839 --> 00:16:19.139 they were also having to cover an election campaign, and that included a debate 00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:21.519 while there was football going on on ITV. 00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:29.319 How on earth did a newsroom and the top tiers of production manage? 00:16:29.439 --> 00:16:32.239 How would that conversation happen? How do they balance that out? 00:16:32.239 --> 00:16:41.039 So I remember, without getting into my personal details, I left the BBC last 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.179 year, a period of time from the BBC. 00:16:43.359 --> 00:16:46.779 And I remember at the time then saying that this year was going to be possibly 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:50.459 the most challenging year financially for BBC News they'd ever faced. 00:16:50.959 --> 00:16:54.339 And they knew they were going to face a UK election. They were also facing a 00:16:54.339 --> 00:16:56.159 US election, and they knew there 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.099 were going to be Euros, and they knew the Olympics, all those things cost. 00:17:01.079 --> 00:17:04.999 I can't emphasise this enough for my American listeners, these are hugely important 00:17:04.999 --> 00:17:09.239 for the BBC, the BBC doesn't have that much sport, doesn't get to show that 00:17:09.239 --> 00:17:12.259 much live sport, it's even showing a dwindling amount of the Olympics, frankly. 00:17:14.606 --> 00:17:18.226 But people turn to the BBC for elections, like it or loathe it, 00:17:18.946 --> 00:17:23.126 and people turn to it for that free-to-air international football. 00:17:23.486 --> 00:17:25.626 These are huge, significant events 00:17:25.626 --> 00:17:29.246 for the BBC, and you've outlined there were four of them in one year. 00:17:29.886 --> 00:17:34.166 Well, I can't speak for the rest of the BBC, and I know that BBC Sport is given 00:17:34.166 --> 00:17:37.266 the money to put on a proper show at things like the Euros. 00:17:37.506 --> 00:17:42.686 But in terms of BBC News, I remember being told by one manager that basically 00:17:42.686 --> 00:17:48.106 there was no money for anything else, that all the other news coverage had to be pared down. 00:17:48.126 --> 00:17:52.306 We wouldn't be doing any other set pieces apart from those four things this year. 00:17:52.506 --> 00:17:56.006 So bringing the election forward didn't help, but I think the BBC had already 00:17:56.006 --> 00:17:58.766 sort of priced it in in this year's finances. 00:17:59.526 --> 00:18:05.406 It priced it in in terms of money, but there's only a set number of channels. 00:18:05.666 --> 00:18:08.946 Obviously, you have the iPlayer, but it's not really what we're talking about. 00:18:08.946 --> 00:18:13.426 And there's only a set number of producers and logistics and presenters. 00:18:15.006 --> 00:18:19.566 And there's only a set number of time in the TV schedule. 00:18:20.186 --> 00:18:25.026 Well, I noticed that they seem to juggle the debates and the Euros quite well. 00:18:25.446 --> 00:18:27.046 And I suppose we were lucky. I thought they did. 00:18:27.826 --> 00:18:32.246 I suppose we were lucky that the actual last week of the election wasn't the 00:18:32.246 --> 00:18:33.906 last week of the Euros as well. 00:18:34.146 --> 00:18:37.706 I mean, they just about managed to sort of get around that. So I suppose scheduling, 00:18:37.766 --> 00:18:38.986 they just about got away with it. 00:18:39.226 --> 00:18:41.766 And you can reschedule things like the debate. You can, you know, 00:18:41.806 --> 00:18:43.486 you can play about with that and put in the right days. 00:18:43.526 --> 00:18:46.386 There was one day, wasn't there, when there was a debate and an England game 00:18:46.386 --> 00:18:49.226 on the same day? I believe so, yeah. Yeah. 00:18:50.306 --> 00:18:53.766 But again, I think there was on, I mean, they managed to split channels. 00:18:53.866 --> 00:18:55.426 They didn't have to stick one of them on BBC Two. 00:18:57.186 --> 00:19:01.906 It did make things trickier. I mean, there is an argument that says Sunak called 00:19:01.906 --> 00:19:04.666 the election in order to sort of get some bounce off the Euros, 00:19:04.666 --> 00:19:07.366 which is a bizarre thing to try and do, I think. 00:19:08.506 --> 00:19:11.946 It wouldn't have helped the BBC, but I think in terms of... 00:19:13.193 --> 00:19:20.273 But in terms of finances, they had already taken that on board, 00:19:20.353 --> 00:19:21.793 and it's not going to be easy for them. 00:19:21.973 --> 00:19:27.213 And certainly, I know, like I say, for BBC News, it's basically then a screw for the rest of the year. 00:19:28.153 --> 00:19:34.133 How would the newsroom have reacted, you know, the producers of your seniority and much less? 00:19:34.953 --> 00:19:39.593 In terms of what? In terms of you suddenly, you know you're building up to the 00:19:39.593 --> 00:19:41.833 Euros, which is a news event as well as a sports event. 00:19:42.493 --> 00:19:47.853 And then you realise you've got this huge general election coming as well. 00:19:48.673 --> 00:19:53.593 Well, I mean, for BBC News it was very difficult as well because they split 00:19:53.593 --> 00:19:56.493 their coverage, didn't they, between BBC World and BBC News, 00:19:56.613 --> 00:19:59.813 which is something that they're not really starting to do anymore. 00:20:02.053 --> 00:20:08.093 As I've covered a lot over on New Edition. Yeah. But you work with what you've got. 00:20:08.153 --> 00:20:11.493 You work flat out and at the end of it you take a, 00:20:11.833 --> 00:20:14.433 a well-earned rest i'm intrigued to know what bbc news is going to be 00:20:14.433 --> 00:20:17.993 like over the next sort of three or four weeks when all their producers are uh are 00:20:17.993 --> 00:20:20.953 taking are either sort of um recovering from nervous breakdowns or 00:20:20.953 --> 00:20:24.273 you know sort of going on holiday and taking taking a well-earned break well 00:20:24.273 --> 00:20:27.893 luckily there's no news happening at the moment though there's something i mean 00:20:27.893 --> 00:20:31.673 the the thing is there's interesting news choices to be made um when you've 00:20:31.673 --> 00:20:36.333 got events like this happening together i mean we we talked about um what would 00:20:36.333 --> 00:20:39.073 you lead on it yes we were having a gossip over lunch, weren't we? 00:20:39.153 --> 00:20:43.253 Yeah, if Trump had been shot on the day of the Euro finals, what's the lead? 00:20:43.333 --> 00:20:49.193 So I think these things become important for producers, trying to balance off 00:20:49.193 --> 00:20:54.193 news events, especially when they're so disconnected in terms of tone. 00:20:55.753 --> 00:21:02.513 But yeah, I mean, apart from that, things are capable with, we've spent years 00:21:02.513 --> 00:21:04.633 and years and years where things coincide. 00:21:04.673 --> 00:21:08.473 So I don't I don't think that necessarily is a huge problem. 00:21:09.273 --> 00:21:13.033 Here's just back to the Euros itself, then. Here's my question. 00:21:13.553 --> 00:21:22.173 The BBC and ITV both spent a fortune on beautiful studios out in Germany. Why? 00:21:24.733 --> 00:21:29.693 This is an old argument, though, isn't it, that we should be presenting back from London? 00:21:29.713 --> 00:21:33.173 I think the feeling is that, you know, you sort of need to be there. 00:21:33.173 --> 00:21:37.753 You sort of need to provide the audience with a feeling of from the host country um, 00:21:39.417 --> 00:21:44.437 Whether it's financially justifiable is questionable. But I think the audience 00:21:44.437 --> 00:21:48.917 does appreciate the fact that you're out in the country where the actual events are happening. 00:21:49.297 --> 00:21:50.797 But you could have reporters there. 00:21:50.817 --> 00:21:55.637 I mean, the shots from the studio were beautiful, the view behind them. 00:21:55.997 --> 00:22:01.577 But I can't even imagine what that studio space must cost, what it must cost 00:22:01.577 --> 00:22:04.437 to put up the presenters and pundits for a month. 00:22:06.497 --> 00:22:10.597 Where they could all be in Salford or London. I'm not going to get into the 00:22:10.597 --> 00:22:13.537 cost of it, Charlotte, because I honestly don't know how it works out. 00:22:13.577 --> 00:22:16.037 It will work out as at a lot. You're quite right. 00:22:16.497 --> 00:22:19.877 Yeah. We don't need to know the number, but it has a lot of zeros on it. 00:22:20.137 --> 00:22:22.637 From an audience point of view, from a viewer's point of view, 00:22:22.717 --> 00:22:24.837 I still think it's worth it. 00:22:24.877 --> 00:22:29.457 I like the idea that they're out there, you know, and they could wander on down 00:22:29.457 --> 00:22:31.257 to the games if they felt like it. 00:22:31.337 --> 00:22:35.037 I think it makes a difference to the tone. 00:22:35.577 --> 00:22:37.417 Do you? You think it's worth the money? 00:22:38.317 --> 00:22:40.017 Yeah, I think so. I think so. 00:22:41.357 --> 00:22:43.697 I mean, there might come a point when the BBC is so strapped for cash, 00:22:43.757 --> 00:22:47.037 they have to do it from a sort of, you know, cardboard box in, as you say, in Salford. 00:22:47.057 --> 00:22:51.857 But let's wait until that happens before we complain too much. 00:22:52.537 --> 00:22:57.437 Yeah, no, it's fair enough. I guess I have to ask you, I'll put you on the spot a bit. 00:22:58.297 --> 00:23:02.057 Just on the BBC in general, we've obviously got a new culture secretary in Lisa 00:23:02.057 --> 00:23:05.737 Nandy and a new government under the Labour government. 00:23:06.237 --> 00:23:09.537 Do you think we're going to see a different approach to the BBC to the one we've 00:23:09.537 --> 00:23:12.497 seen for the last 14 years? I think they've already marked that out. 00:23:12.997 --> 00:23:18.477 I mean, Starman has already made it plain that he's not looking at sort of immediate 00:23:18.477 --> 00:23:20.257 replacements for the licence fee. 00:23:20.357 --> 00:23:23.497 I mean, after years under Dean Doris, that comes as a welcome relief. 00:23:25.017 --> 00:23:29.177 There was a bit of Nadine Doris as the Culture Secretary. There's been a few others as well. Yeah. 00:23:29.277 --> 00:23:33.717 And I do think that there will definitely be a change in position, 00:23:33.797 --> 00:23:36.597 although there already has been a change in position and that will last for 00:23:36.597 --> 00:23:39.277 at least a year, I would have thought. 00:23:40.533 --> 00:23:45.313 I think all governments have a tendency to row back on that and start thinking 00:23:45.313 --> 00:23:51.933 that the BBC is sort of a – something should be done about it after a couple 00:23:51.933 --> 00:23:53.453 of years. I think it's the natural thing of government. 00:23:54.133 --> 00:23:58.653 I think the BBC needs to enjoy a little honeymoon. Enjoy a little honeymoon. I hope they get one. 00:23:59.913 --> 00:24:03.113 Because, I mean, you and I are fans of the BBC. 00:24:03.173 --> 00:24:06.593 I always say – I board my listeners a census with it because every time I discuss 00:24:06.593 --> 00:24:10.053 the BBC, I say that I think it's the best value subscription I pay for. 00:24:10.533 --> 00:24:16.673 Um but obviously pardoned apart from the edition obviously apart from the edition 00:24:16.673 --> 00:24:20.793 you should pay for that but i cost a lot less yes uh than the bbc i don't pay 00:24:20.793 --> 00:24:24.573 for the edition for list for listeners it's the best i'm the best subscription 00:24:24.573 --> 00:24:27.253 but for me it's the bbc but, 00:24:28.013 --> 00:24:32.253 that license look we have this conversation about the license fee endless amounts 00:24:32.253 --> 00:24:36.553 of times i can't even imagine how many times you had to discuss it in your many 00:24:36.553 --> 00:24:38.213 years in the corporation operation. 00:24:39.073 --> 00:24:44.413 But I do wonder if we're going to get a little break from that incessant. 00:24:45.313 --> 00:24:49.333 I hope so. I don't think it'll last long. You still don't think, yeah, okay. 00:24:49.513 --> 00:24:54.453 I mean, choices will have to be thought about whether the licence fee can last, 00:24:54.493 --> 00:24:57.273 you know, more than another 10 years or so. 00:24:57.613 --> 00:25:01.693 I mean, obviously, that's still going to be an issue. But I do think we get 00:25:01.693 --> 00:25:03.213 a break from it for at least a year or so. 00:25:03.373 --> 00:25:10.953 And I think that's a really really good thing um i don't want to have yet another 00:25:10.953 --> 00:25:16.133 discussion about sort of why subscription is um the bbc is such a terrible idea 00:25:16.133 --> 00:25:20.613 i don't want to have another discussion about why ads are a terrible idea um. 00:25:22.367 --> 00:25:26.187 In a way it's better for me it's not it's not so personal for me now now i'm 00:25:26.187 --> 00:25:28.967 out of there um but i still i 00:25:28.967 --> 00:25:36.607 i it still feels like an argument that is sitting there in the background. 00:25:37.747 --> 00:25:41.927 And i don't i don't think it will go away and i don't think um the labour party 00:25:41.927 --> 00:25:46.567 can duck it forever but like you say to have a break from it is is is very very 00:25:46.567 --> 00:25:48.927 welcome uh yeah i think it It probably is. 00:25:49.587 --> 00:25:55.487 And I guess we just have to wrap up then with England sort of pulling short 00:25:55.487 --> 00:25:59.067 once again on a Sunday night. 00:25:59.707 --> 00:26:02.987 I have to say, no one does a montage better than BBC Sport, do they? 00:26:03.167 --> 00:26:05.347 They love their montages. They're very good at them. 00:26:05.747 --> 00:26:07.227 You know, people, you can still 00:26:07.227 --> 00:26:12.047 see grown men of a certain age cry at Ness and Dorma from Italian 90. 00:26:12.447 --> 00:26:16.567 What was the montage? Which was the montage this time that had the shot that 00:26:16.567 --> 00:26:18.207 ended on Graham Taylor in the crowd. 00:26:18.607 --> 00:26:22.687 Yeah, we've had a few of those. That was lovely. That was lovely, to be honest. 00:26:22.727 --> 00:26:27.007 But they do these very well, the BBC montage. 00:26:27.787 --> 00:26:31.587 They're kind of a genre of their own, aren't they? There are some really good 00:26:31.587 --> 00:26:34.667 montages away from sort of mainstream TV now as well. 00:26:34.747 --> 00:26:40.607 I mean, TikTok was absolutely full of them. My son kept on showing me them, some fantastic ones. 00:26:41.167 --> 00:26:44.547 Well, that's a really interesting point, actually, because we sort of assume 00:26:44.547 --> 00:26:49.067 it's all about the BBC and ITV and their coverage. 00:26:49.327 --> 00:26:52.907 But there was huge, inevitably, I mean, I'm not saying that like it's a revelation. 00:26:52.987 --> 00:26:55.827 There was, of course, huge amounts on social media. 00:26:56.867 --> 00:27:02.527 There was an amazing, there was some amazing ones of like classic England stories 00:27:02.527 --> 00:27:03.907 of redemption, weren't there? 00:27:04.447 --> 00:27:10.787 Whether it was an Adidas Hey Jude advert or, as you say, sort of user-created 00:27:10.787 --> 00:27:13.907 content on TikTok and Instagram and Twitter? 00:27:14.207 --> 00:27:17.647 Well, that worries me. I mean, the thing that does worry me about sort of the 00:27:17.647 --> 00:27:26.707 whole sort of user-generated content is that it falls into the same thing that I think... 00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:32.339 Um, a lot of the TV coverage this time around fell into, and there may be influence 00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:34.359 each other. And it's, it's, we've talked about it before. 00:27:34.439 --> 00:27:38.959 It's the, it's the, it's the fixation on individual stories and individual arts. 00:27:38.959 --> 00:27:47.919 And if there was one thing that I'd hope that the Southgate era had taught us, 00:27:48.099 --> 00:27:54.439 and one thing that maybe the collapse of the Golden Generation and all that 00:27:54.439 --> 00:27:58.659 sort of stuff had told us, was that focusing on individuals in a team event 00:27:58.659 --> 00:28:00.799 is a very, very bad thing. 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:04.959 But we seem to fall into it so far in this tournament. 00:28:04.959 --> 00:28:07.859 Tournament the whole Bellingham thing and Bellingham was 00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:11.799 a great great player but he had a terrible tournament um and 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.659 we can't keep on going about 00:28:14.659 --> 00:28:17.779 as we could we can't fall into that sort of um what was 00:28:17.779 --> 00:28:22.119 the what was the Bellingham phrase um who else yeah who else you know we we 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.639 can't do that and if we do it we're just going to keep on failing and we've 00:28:25.639 --> 00:28:29.439 done it like you said we did it with Kane because you know Harry was you know 00:28:29.439 --> 00:28:32.079 oh he's been the savior of England he's the he's the the one that's going to 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:34.739 lead us to glory and it's like no he he might as part of a team. 00:28:35.459 --> 00:28:38.519 But he's not going to do it by himself and then when he falls short of those standards then 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.579 the then the blame comes out yeah the same could happen 00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:44.779 for bellingham it's a very british way of doing it yeah but 00:28:44.779 --> 00:28:47.679 you destroy players by doing that you destroy teams like doing 00:28:47.679 --> 00:28:51.479 that and you say it's a british way of doing it but i suspect it's 00:28:51.479 --> 00:28:54.239 a social media way of doing 00:28:54.239 --> 00:28:57.259 it yeah american sport as well and it's 00:28:57.259 --> 00:29:00.199 um yeah you're it's worrying i 00:29:00.199 --> 00:29:03.919 don't like it as a as a as a tendency no i 00:29:03.919 --> 00:29:06.699 mean there was another beautiful montage that i saw on 00:29:06.699 --> 00:29:10.939 twitter as well um you know how do you compare actually you and i both watch 00:29:10.939 --> 00:29:14.039 a lot of american sport i have to say i don't know if this isn't just me being 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:20.579 a bit uh you know home homey but i tend to prefer the british way of covering 00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:24.579 sport We've imported a lot of their tendencies, 00:29:24.659 --> 00:29:26.059 particularly on Sky Sports. 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:31.159 The BBC tends to resist some of the Americanisation of coverage. 00:29:32.729 --> 00:29:36.509 I prefer it. I prefer the British one, but there is an interesting thing. 00:29:36.509 --> 00:29:37.849 We're a bit more low-key, aren't we? 00:29:38.109 --> 00:29:43.469 Yeah. So when you look at NFL coverage, for example, you realise how sophisticated 00:29:43.469 --> 00:29:49.669 the techniques and the commentary is, of how they're reporting the game. 00:29:49.749 --> 00:29:54.069 And they take it to a level which is almost beyond the level of the casual viewer, 00:29:54.269 --> 00:29:56.469 which is why I don't think British TV will ever do that. 00:29:56.469 --> 00:29:59.269 Um it's a totally different 00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:02.309 way of of of producing and 00:30:02.309 --> 00:30:04.889 reporting and broadcasting sport whether it's for the 00:30:04.889 --> 00:30:07.769 best like you say i'm not so sure tony romo and his 00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:10.989 lines and diagrams and everything else yeah absolutely 00:30:10.989 --> 00:30:16.889 well i guess we sort of better wrap it up there and uh go back to crying to 00:30:16.889 --> 00:30:22.929 our cups of tea that once again our team has fallen short just towards that 00:30:22.929 --> 00:30:28.329 i want to look ahead to the Olympics though because it's another big set piece moment for the BBC, 00:30:29.209 --> 00:30:32.289 there's going to be a lot of weepy montages and that is about individual 00:30:32.289 --> 00:30:37.349 stories in a way that the football isn't very much so and it it it lends itself 00:30:37.349 --> 00:30:40.169 to that doesn't it because it is it like you say it's individual achievements 00:30:40.169 --> 00:30:44.689 um so you can do the individual stories and the you know the recovery recovery 00:30:44.689 --> 00:30:50.869 from injury I used to do a lot of um writing on sort of sports stars as well well. 00:30:50.889 --> 00:30:58.089 And there's always you can always the bog standard profile, sports profile is. 00:30:59.790 --> 00:31:02.430 Was brilliant had an injury or you know sort of had a 00:31:02.430 --> 00:31:05.310 setback and then came back and recovered that's that was brilliant 00:31:05.310 --> 00:31:08.250 um again that we 00:31:08.250 --> 00:31:10.890 we know that the um the tv coverage the olympics is going to 00:31:10.890 --> 00:31:13.530 be full of that i'm looking forward to it i think it's gonna be and look and 00:31:13.530 --> 00:31:18.090 after that channel four picks up the baton with the paralimics and that is a 00:31:18.090 --> 00:31:24.330 amazing tale of individual stories and i have to say i in however many years 00:31:24.330 --> 00:31:29.010 i've still never seen a better advert than channel Channel 4's London 2012 Meet the Superheroes, 00:31:29.010 --> 00:31:31.830 Meet the Superhumans Paralympics advert, 00:31:31.970 --> 00:31:34.930 which I think is basically one of the best sports adverts I've ever seen. 00:31:36.650 --> 00:31:39.890 But anyway, Rob, I'm so pleased you got to join me for this and we got to sort 00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:44.750 of have a joint therapy session out loud to get over our hurt. 00:31:44.850 --> 00:31:49.310 Yeah, I'm looking forward to Wimbledon, so I'm looking forward to some of that as well. 00:31:49.870 --> 00:31:53.050 Yeah, we didn't even talk about Wimbledon, which is a huge event for the BBC 00:31:53.050 --> 00:31:54.470 as well. Oh, oh my goodness. 00:31:55.030 --> 00:31:58.410 They've done a huge amount over the last few weeks. And probably, 00:31:58.570 --> 00:32:01.210 as you say, there's a lot of presenters that need a lie down. 00:32:01.330 --> 00:32:06.310 Rob, thank you so much for joining me and for having this joint therapy session out loud. 00:32:07.050 --> 00:32:09.910 Where can people keep up with you as the summer of sport continues? 00:32:11.570 --> 00:32:16.250 Well, well, I would say that I take sort of copious notes and put them on social media. 00:32:16.350 --> 00:32:21.070 What I mean is I rant on Twitter a lot. So you can find me on Twitter at Robert 00:32:21.070 --> 00:32:26.570 Ray, all one word R-E-A is the spelling of the surname so there will be a lot 00:32:26.570 --> 00:32:30.130 of ranting about the Olympics and a lot of ranting about Chelsea's season, 00:32:32.470 --> 00:32:35.950 2024-2025 which I'm not looking forward to with the same degree of enthusiasm 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:41.910 No and we won't we won't get into that particular rivalry I'm at Charlotte A. 00:32:41.930 --> 00:32:45.530 Henry across social media if you've enjoyed this show hopefully you'll enjoy 00:32:45.530 --> 00:32:49.510 the edition as well go to theedition.net to read the blog post there to read 00:32:49.510 --> 00:32:52.890 the newsletters there and to take out a subscription, which, 00:32:52.950 --> 00:32:55.190 as Rob says, is just phenomenally good value. 00:32:56.170 --> 00:32:58.450 Thank you all for listening, and I'll see you soon. 00:32:59.280 --> 00:33:07.575 Music.