WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.237 Hello, I'm Charlotte Henry, and this is your new, much more regular edition podcast. 00:00:04.797 --> 00:00:09.197 I hope you enjoyed yesterday's discussion with Ellen Clegg and Dan Kennedy. 00:00:09.577 --> 00:00:11.737 This is part two of that conversation. 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:22.160 Music. 00:00:21.397 --> 00:00:24.377 I'm fascinated listening to both of you as I sit here in London, 00:00:24.397 --> 00:00:29.697 because our regional city paper, The Evening Standard, 00:00:30.017 --> 00:00:34.877 which sort of thinks of itself as a national in some ways because it's based 00:00:34.877 --> 00:00:38.957 in the capital, but it always was a London newspaper at its heart, 00:00:39.057 --> 00:00:43.577 has announced it's going from a daily free sheet to a weekly one. 00:00:43.997 --> 00:00:48.777 And that's in large part because basically the owner, which is Evgeny Lebedev, 00:00:48.897 --> 00:00:55.597 is, you know, the quote from the chairman, Paul Kanarek, is he's accrued substantial losses. 00:00:55.597 --> 00:01:02.337 Losses so it's not only in the u.s where these regional forces are at play and 00:01:02.337 --> 00:01:07.157 are having to think about the different business models i also wonder here in both of you chatting. 00:01:07.737 --> 00:01:11.897 I guess i'll ask this again to you ellen because you were talking about the 00:01:11.897 --> 00:01:18.097 for-profit area do you think some of it is because journalists are a bit we're 00:01:18.097 --> 00:01:21.737 a bit we're not very good about talking about money are we we're not very good 00:01:21.737 --> 00:01:25.217 about talking about money we're not very good at admitting we'd like to earn money. 00:01:25.417 --> 00:01:30.797 And we're not very good at talking about businesses. We think sort of if we 00:01:30.797 --> 00:01:32.777 write it, they will come in some ways. 00:01:33.117 --> 00:01:38.877 And we perhaps, I mean, at the for-profit places, do you think they've got over 00:01:38.877 --> 00:01:40.717 that of being scared about talking about money? 00:01:41.077 --> 00:01:47.257 I would say newsrooms still enjoy the privilege of the separation between church 00:01:47.257 --> 00:01:51.577 and state, as we call it, between the business side and the editorial side. 00:01:51.917 --> 00:01:56.617 That said, I think I think journalists have become much more comfortable with 00:01:56.617 --> 00:02:01.337 discussing audience, who is reading their story. 00:02:03.235 --> 00:02:10.315 At The Globe, we used an app called Chartbeat that told us who was reading us when, 00:02:10.495 --> 00:02:16.155 where they were coming from, and how long they stayed on a story, 00:02:16.315 --> 00:02:18.795 what the bounce rate was, that kind of thing. 00:02:18.795 --> 00:02:25.035 And when I was editorial page editor, I revamped our entire publishing schedule 00:02:25.035 --> 00:02:33.475 and meeting schedule because our peak audience was, fortunately or unfortunately, at 6 a.m. 00:02:33.475 --> 00:02:36.255 In the morning before people commuted into work. 00:02:36.435 --> 00:02:43.135 So we created a morning shift, an early morning shift and published fresh material. 00:02:43.175 --> 00:02:45.475 And we saw our numbers go up. 00:02:47.455 --> 00:02:53.935 I like the way you restrain yourself you've got publishing schedules based entirely 00:02:53.935 --> 00:02:57.435 on Boston's broken transportation system. 00:03:02.975 --> 00:03:08.295 It's yeah I mean I also wonder if Dan is slightly to blame are the students 00:03:08.295 --> 00:03:12.395 you're teaching coming out sort of too high minded 00:03:12.595 --> 00:03:15.515 not quite with the prisoner's brains 00:03:15.515 --> 00:03:18.575 required to go into the modern media basically well 00:03:18.575 --> 00:03:21.375 they don't come 00:03:21.375 --> 00:03:30.055 out high-minded if they take a class with me so that's not an issue but seriously 00:03:30.055 --> 00:03:34.215 do you think journalism i mean i never went to journalism school as probably 00:03:34.215 --> 00:03:40.015 readers can tell but you know do in america particularly going to journalism school is a huge, 00:03:40.755 --> 00:03:44.795 thing and do you think those institutions are turning 00:03:44.795 --> 00:03:47.995 people out yeah you know i really think we are uh 00:03:47.995 --> 00:03:50.735 not just northeastern but uh all of 00:03:50.735 --> 00:03:54.935 the good programs are doing that i mean i think you have to keep in mind that 00:03:54.935 --> 00:04:01.815 although it is a very good idea for everybody in any enterprise to understand 00:04:01.815 --> 00:04:08.795 where the money's coming from and and what what makes a business successful uh the fact Fact is, 00:04:08.815 --> 00:04:16.695 the journalists themselves are still doing largely the jobs they've always done with new tools. 00:04:17.655 --> 00:04:24.515 And, you know, a lot of them are doing data journalism and they have to be savvy about social media. 00:04:25.135 --> 00:04:30.135 But they're not going into the boardroom setting a new strategy for how we're 00:04:30.135 --> 00:04:32.435 going to turn around the business. 00:04:32.955 --> 00:04:38.655 So I think that I think that journalists, young journalists, 00:04:38.695 --> 00:04:41.275 it's pretty much the same as it's always been, which is. 00:04:42.728 --> 00:04:46.008 But isn't that the problem? Is that appropriate? I don't know. 00:04:46.308 --> 00:04:50.988 I see our young journalists are going on to tremendous success at a variety 00:04:50.988 --> 00:04:52.968 of news outlets, big and small. 00:04:53.868 --> 00:04:57.208 And there's a lot of learning on the job. And they come back, 00:04:57.268 --> 00:04:59.248 you know, six months after they graduate. 00:04:59.348 --> 00:05:04.108 They're talking about things that weren't even a thing when they were going 00:05:04.108 --> 00:05:06.488 to journalism school just a short time earlier. 00:05:06.948 --> 00:05:11.668 And they're being very successful. So, you know, when you talk about isn't that the problem, 00:05:11.868 --> 00:05:18.008 a lot of the problem, which we haven't mentioned, But one of the animating principles 00:05:18.008 --> 00:05:23.808 behind what Alan and I are doing is that if you can get rid of corporate chain 00:05:23.808 --> 00:05:25.768 ownership and hedge fund ownership, 00:05:26.028 --> 00:05:32.388 you've actually cleared out a lot of the deadwood, and it becomes possible to 00:05:32.388 --> 00:05:35.808 build successful news organizations. 00:05:35.808 --> 00:05:39.508 There's not as much money floating around as there's always been, 00:05:39.728 --> 00:05:44.888 or as there used to be, but there's money floating around and that can be used 00:05:44.888 --> 00:05:48.668 to build profitable news businesses. 00:05:49.408 --> 00:05:53.608 After all, we're talking about the Boston Globe and the Minneapolis Star Tribune, 00:05:53.768 --> 00:05:55.428 well what do they have in common? 00:05:55.588 --> 00:06:03.448 They have local ownership, and although the owners of those two papers are both 00:06:03.448 --> 00:06:10.088 very wealthy, they're not subsidizing the papers these are profitable stand-alone businesses. 00:06:10.988 --> 00:06:17.508 So I think if you can keep the hedge funds out of the boardroom you've accomplished 00:06:17.508 --> 00:06:22.568 an awful lot more than teaching a college sophomore how to, 00:06:23.288 --> 00:06:28.808 balance a budget maybe, I mean you would not agree with that I wanted to go 00:06:28.808 --> 00:06:32.628 back to the question of audience and so journalists. 00:06:33.744 --> 00:06:41.664 We, in my view, need to work with people who are the software engineers who 00:06:41.664 --> 00:06:44.344 are what's called in the United States product. 00:06:44.724 --> 00:06:50.704 And we did this. I view these as channels of publication, different platforms, different tools. 00:06:50.704 --> 00:06:56.184 We did a, when I say we, I mean the editorial page of the Boston Globe, 00:06:56.444 --> 00:07:05.144 we did a big project on Donald Trump to look forward in a satiric way on what 00:07:05.144 --> 00:07:08.044 he might do if he kept all his campaign promises. 00:07:08.404 --> 00:07:16.264 And we knew that we had a print audience, but we also knew that we wanted to 00:07:16.264 --> 00:07:23.224 capitalize on our digital audience. So from the beginning, we had teams of people. 00:07:23.304 --> 00:07:28.164 We had the software engineers, the digital design people, 00:07:28.384 --> 00:07:36.524 the product and social media people working hand in hand in the same office, 00:07:36.584 --> 00:07:43.004 in the same room with the writers, the editorial writers, the print design person. 00:07:43.004 --> 00:07:51.624 And I was the print expert in how to get the page on the press and when the deadlines were. 00:07:51.864 --> 00:07:59.084 And it really worked beautifully. I worked with people who were in their late 00:07:59.084 --> 00:08:11.124 20s and 30s who were coding for the phone reader and testing for the tablet reader and the desktop. 00:08:11.124 --> 00:08:13.424 Top. And we all learned a lot. 00:08:14.803 --> 00:08:17.663 Well one of the things that you learned i can say this ellen because 00:08:17.663 --> 00:08:21.143 we're not in the same room today um one of 00:08:21.143 --> 00:08:24.023 the things i think the globe learned was that you took 00:08:24.023 --> 00:08:31.223 on a few of these massive multimedia interactive presentations that were wonderful 00:08:31.223 --> 00:08:36.523 for the audience and they really turned out to be on an economic basis not really 00:08:36.523 --> 00:08:41.803 worth it and i haven't seen the globe do anything like that for a number of years now. 00:08:42.123 --> 00:08:47.763 And it seems to me that a number of papers have cut back on those kinds of ambitions 00:08:47.763 --> 00:08:52.583 because the input was not worth the output. 00:08:55.183 --> 00:09:01.523 Do you, I mean, am I completely off on that, Alan, or is there something to that? 00:09:01.523 --> 00:09:11.643 Well, it depends on how you look at or how one looks at what role reader engagement plays. 00:09:11.943 --> 00:09:20.063 And I know for the Boston Globe, their goal has been to get to first 250,000 digital subscribers. 00:09:20.563 --> 00:09:27.183 And so the subscribers are, in fact, our members who are the chief source of 00:09:27.183 --> 00:09:29.543 revenue for to fund the journalism. 00:09:31.203 --> 00:09:37.463 And that sort of funnel where you engage a reader at the top and then get them 00:09:37.463 --> 00:09:42.283 more engaged and more engaged until they become a quote unquote member paying 00:09:42.283 --> 00:09:45.503 subscriber or in the case of a nonprofit, a donor. 00:09:45.923 --> 00:09:48.563 I think that is critical. 00:09:49.103 --> 00:09:54.283 Did our projects bring in digital ads? No, there are no digital ads to be had. 00:09:55.503 --> 00:09:58.043 Okay. You said the Trump word, Ellen. 00:09:59.703 --> 00:10:05.023 What would you be doing now if you were sitting in that editorial page meeting? 00:10:05.603 --> 00:10:11.203 How would you be handling what's been going on and how you have to deal with 00:10:11.203 --> 00:10:12.243 it for the next few months? 00:10:13.563 --> 00:10:17.183 It's a big question. Dan and I are going to sit back and leave you for 20 minutes 00:10:17.183 --> 00:10:18.983 while you save the world. 00:10:18.983 --> 00:10:23.243 I would be doing what they are doing, what the New York Times editorial page 00:10:23.243 --> 00:10:25.443 is doing, and writing about democracy, 00:10:25.803 --> 00:10:31.023 writing about what seems like an increasingly fragile project, 00:10:31.343 --> 00:10:39.283 writing about voting regulations, which are constantly changing in cities and towns. 00:10:39.283 --> 00:10:46.983 I would be writing about access to the polls, about verifiable voters who don't 00:10:46.983 --> 00:10:53.583 accept election results or public officials who don't accept election results. 00:10:53.723 --> 00:10:58.003 I would be writing about this country's history, which is sometimes fraught 00:10:58.003 --> 00:11:01.363 between the popular vote and the electoral college. 00:11:01.363 --> 00:11:09.383 So I would focus on the larger systemic questions that have to do with our future as a nation. 00:11:12.085 --> 00:11:15.605 You wouldn't be doing what the Wall Street Journal did and writing stories about 00:11:15.605 --> 00:11:18.485 President Biden being too old. 00:11:18.545 --> 00:11:20.985 That was the newsroom, not the editorial page. 00:11:21.065 --> 00:11:24.025 I don't read the Wall Street Journal editorial page anymore. 00:11:25.605 --> 00:11:33.145 And they did that story. If you look at it, it's been critiqued by people like 00:11:33.145 --> 00:11:39.985 Dan, media observers, that most of their named sources were Republicans. 00:11:40.745 --> 00:11:45.105 Yes, absolutely. But, you know, I would add to what Ellen just said. 00:11:45.245 --> 00:11:47.005 I agree with every word she said. 00:11:47.265 --> 00:11:53.605 But the Globe, the Boston Globe's editorial today is on the runaway expenses 00:11:53.605 --> 00:11:58.925 of new fare boxes for the public transportation system, the MBTA. 00:11:58.925 --> 00:12:04.505 And I would love to think that even with the election looming, 00:12:04.645 --> 00:12:09.845 most of the Globe's editorial firepower is going to be devoted to those kinds 00:12:09.845 --> 00:12:13.525 of important regional and statewide issues. 00:12:15.285 --> 00:12:20.325 And the reporting firepower too? Yeah, I would say, look, the Globe is a regional 00:12:20.325 --> 00:12:25.425 paper, and the region defined broadly is New England. 00:12:25.725 --> 00:12:30.065 The Globe circulates in New Hampshire, in Maine, in Rhode Island, 00:12:30.325 --> 00:12:36.445 in parts of Connecticut, and they are building out more regional coverage with 00:12:36.445 --> 00:12:43.365 bureaus, including in the inner suburbs, the close-in cities like Cambridge and Somerville. 00:12:43.365 --> 00:12:50.745 So, yes, I think issues like we live our lives locally, transportation, 00:12:51.365 --> 00:12:58.085 climate change means flooding on our streets, heat sinks, no tree canopy. 00:12:58.085 --> 00:13:06.425 Those are things people really deeply care about, and the divisive rhetoric 00:13:06.425 --> 00:13:11.265 of the so-called red-blue divide between Republicans and Democrats, 00:13:11.565 --> 00:13:14.585 that doesn't always map over local issues. 00:13:14.805 --> 00:13:21.625 You may be able to talk to a neighbor who voted for Trump, but your street's 00:13:21.625 --> 00:13:26.785 not getting plowed in the winter, and you both advocate for more money. Yeah. 00:13:28.901 --> 00:13:32.701 I mean, Dan, when you picked up on that editorial page, it struck me, 00:13:32.721 --> 00:13:35.281 and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me. 00:13:35.381 --> 00:13:41.341 For you, it seemed that the core to a success of a regional outlet is actually staying regional. 00:13:41.601 --> 00:13:45.661 Don't be something locally that then tries to do the national. That's right. 00:13:45.881 --> 00:13:55.301 And, you know, I mean, one of the our latest podcast guest is is a professor named Joanna Dunaway, 00:13:55.401 --> 00:14:04.441 who has done work on how the injection of national issues into local news can 00:14:04.441 --> 00:14:06.781 contribute to political polarization. 00:14:06.781 --> 00:14:10.341 Polarization now nobody expects uh 00:14:10.341 --> 00:14:13.101 the new york times or the wall street journal or the 00:14:13.101 --> 00:14:15.881 washington post to stay away from the kind 00:14:15.881 --> 00:14:20.081 of national issues that feed polarization but uh 00:14:20.081 --> 00:14:25.461 we really think that at the local level uh by concentrating on local issues 00:14:25.461 --> 00:14:32.301 uh we can help build something of a common ground where people who are in terrible 00:14:32.301 --> 00:14:38.621 disagreement on national politics find that they may have some agreement. 00:14:39.481 --> 00:14:44.581 There's an old saying that I think goes back to New York Mayor John Lindsay 00:14:44.581 --> 00:14:52.721 in the 60s, there is not a liberal or a there's not a Democratic or Republican way to pick up the trash. 00:14:53.181 --> 00:15:00.581 And you know, So by focusing on those kinds of issues, we may be able to help 00:15:00.581 --> 00:15:02.961 bridge the partisan divide to some extent. 00:15:03.221 --> 00:15:07.181 Now, the Globe is kind of a hybrid. It's not a hyperlocal paper. 00:15:08.475 --> 00:15:13.635 It's a large regional paper, so it's perfectly appropriate for them to weigh 00:15:13.635 --> 00:15:17.535 in on national politics from time to time. 00:15:18.195 --> 00:15:21.375 But I don't think it ought to become their obsession. 00:15:21.795 --> 00:15:25.375 And they've shown no signs that it is going to become their obsession. 00:15:25.595 --> 00:15:29.855 They do a really good job of serving as a regional forum. 00:15:29.855 --> 00:15:32.815 Wrong yeah again i'm thinking of the the evening 00:15:32.815 --> 00:15:35.535 standard here in london which does by definition it has 00:15:35.535 --> 00:15:38.775 to cover national politics because our national politics takes 00:15:38.775 --> 00:15:42.315 place in this city but also if 00:15:42.315 --> 00:15:45.375 it overcompensates so that you have to keep the core of 00:15:45.375 --> 00:15:49.975 londonness as well i get i mean i could talk to you guys for ages this has been 00:15:49.975 --> 00:15:53.595 a fascinating conversation but i do have to ask dan something in particular 00:15:53.595 --> 00:16:00.395 because dan has a fantastic blog dankennedy.net and my My obsession for the 00:16:00.395 --> 00:16:04.055 first six months of this year is that 2024 is the year that blogging comes back. 00:16:05.195 --> 00:16:09.715 It's how I started doing journalism. I love blogging. I love the form factor. 00:16:09.755 --> 00:16:14.215 I think people think we've all lost out to TikTok and even, dare I say it, podcasts. 00:16:14.595 --> 00:16:19.675 But, Dan, can I have some confidence that blogging is coming back or at least is still a thing? 00:16:20.995 --> 00:16:26.415 Oh, you know, I've been doing it since 2002, I think. I mean, 00:16:26.455 --> 00:16:32.015 I think I was in the second, the early second wave of media bloggers, 00:16:32.015 --> 00:16:33.855 and I have never stopped. 00:16:34.255 --> 00:16:37.895 But the problem is, since we're talking about business models here, 00:16:38.215 --> 00:16:40.835 you know, you need to be subsidized. 00:16:40.835 --> 00:16:47.695 I was either doing it for the Boston Phoenix for a few years or for the last 00:16:47.695 --> 00:16:50.715 20 years or 15 years or whatever it's been. 00:16:51.475 --> 00:16:56.515 It's just part of what I do at Northeastern. It's certainly no way to make a living. 00:16:58.024 --> 00:17:03.924 Okay, well, I'm just off to cry then in the corner, because that's all my hopes and dreams evaporated. 00:17:03.944 --> 00:17:08.384 But I really do enjoy reading dankennedy.net. 00:17:08.484 --> 00:17:13.104 And I do like the idea, I think there is something important about blogging 00:17:13.104 --> 00:17:16.424 and the kind of update and the conversational tone to it. 00:17:16.484 --> 00:17:20.224 And obviously, that can have a regional and local element to it as well. 00:17:20.244 --> 00:17:23.764 If you're someone that becomes known in your community or your city, 00:17:23.804 --> 00:17:26.184 that can do the kind of jobs you're talking about, can't it, 00:17:26.204 --> 00:17:28.584 Ellen? And I mean, I don't know if you're a big reader of Dan as well. 00:17:28.584 --> 00:17:29.664 You have enough of him, but. 00:17:30.344 --> 00:17:35.264 No, I I read him every day. I I love Dan's. 00:17:35.904 --> 00:17:41.444 Dan is fast off the block to get some something up, something that's newsy. 00:17:41.464 --> 00:17:43.504 And I love your commentary, Dan. 00:17:43.624 --> 00:17:47.544 I'm not just saying that because we've been writing together for years and years now. 00:17:47.704 --> 00:17:54.364 But he's done some very important and reporting on The Washington Post situation. 00:17:54.364 --> 00:17:57.464 Situation and he provides lots of links 00:17:57.464 --> 00:18:01.364 so you can always go deeper yeah you're 00:18:01.364 --> 00:18:04.684 both very kind what can i say well i like 00:18:04.684 --> 00:18:08.064 that you mentioned it because i also think you know i was saying that oh journalists 00:18:08.064 --> 00:18:12.224 we're all scared of talking about money um i'm interested you picked that excellent 00:18:12.224 --> 00:18:16.684 because also we're often really bad at giving other people um credit i'm sure 00:18:16.684 --> 00:18:19.724 i'm terrible at it sometimes because we like to think we're all brilliant ourselves 00:18:19.724 --> 00:18:23.224 but that doesn't actually give a good media ecosystem, does it? 00:18:24.004 --> 00:18:29.104 No. And I mean, I make no bones about the fact that, you know, 00:18:29.144 --> 00:18:34.944 my original reporting these days is pretty much restricted to my books and maybe 00:18:34.944 --> 00:18:37.124 a few longer pieces here and there. 00:18:37.584 --> 00:18:45.144 The blog is basically aggregation plus commentary, which is kind of the definition of a blog. 00:18:45.404 --> 00:18:49.204 And, you know, sometimes sometimes somebody will say, 00:18:49.204 --> 00:18:52.484 well you should go out and do and report this and 00:18:52.484 --> 00:18:55.384 i'm saying i'm not doing any reporting for my blog are 00:18:55.384 --> 00:18:58.824 you kidding but that's the problem if we 00:18:58.824 --> 00:19:03.764 all talk like that then the whole form factor disappears no isn't there a joy 00:19:03.764 --> 00:19:06.644 in doing original stuff i try and put original reporting into the newsletter 00:19:06.644 --> 00:19:13.684 onto the blog well i mean i think that if people can make a lot of money blogging 00:19:13.684 --> 00:19:15.584 then then they ought to go out and do reporting. 00:19:15.844 --> 00:19:21.004 But if they're doing it almost for free, as I am, then no. 00:19:22.284 --> 00:19:27.004 Fair enough. But Dan, you are working from a deep well of knowledge. 00:19:27.044 --> 00:19:32.544 And so you're building on a career based on incredible reporting. 00:19:33.004 --> 00:19:35.084 Yeah. Which is saying here that I'm old. 00:19:36.504 --> 00:19:40.524 Listen, you two are writing partners. You can hack all this out yourselves. 00:19:40.924 --> 00:19:45.164 I've so enjoyed having you both on the show what are the best ways where people 00:19:45.164 --> 00:19:46.144 can keep up with you Ellen? 00:19:47.438 --> 00:19:54.638 The best ways for keeping up with me are just to read Dan's blog, in case I'm in it. 00:19:56.798 --> 00:20:01.958 And feel free, readers, if somebody wants to contact me, I'm at ellencleg, 00:20:02.018 --> 00:20:06.758 at gmail.com, E-L-L-E-N-C-L-E-G-G. 00:20:07.638 --> 00:20:10.838 And and our uh overall website 00:20:10.838 --> 00:20:15.198 for this project where you can also find Ellen and she does write from time 00:20:15.198 --> 00:20:22.718 to time is uh whatworks.news yes I would link to that and also you I know are 00:20:22.718 --> 00:20:29.498 quite active on threads Dan aren't you I'm sorry what you you you often I think I've seen you pop up 00:20:29.578 --> 00:20:32.618 on threads oh yes i am on threads at dan kennedy 00:20:32.618 --> 00:20:35.858 underscore and you which i 00:20:35.858 --> 00:20:39.718 i think that's why i discovered you so and ellen is 00:20:39.718 --> 00:20:44.238 on threads as well boston clagg there you go i'll link to all of that in the 00:20:44.238 --> 00:20:48.698 show notes so that you can find them after this show goes out thank you both 00:20:48.698 --> 00:20:53.698 so so much for being on the show um i'm of course at charlotte henry across 00:20:53.698 --> 00:20:57.798 social media uh if you head over to theedition.net. 00:20:57.838 --> 00:21:00.038 You can read blogs and newsletter stuff there. 00:21:00.758 --> 00:21:04.158 Obviously, you've listened to all our conversation about business models. 00:21:04.658 --> 00:21:09.278 Obviously, I would love you to subscribe. You can do that directly at newsletter.thedition.net. 00:21:09.858 --> 00:21:14.038 It's outrageous value. So head over there and I'll see you all next week. 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:23.734 Music.