WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.457 Hey, it's Charlotte. I've got something exciting to share. There's going to 00:00:03.457 --> 00:00:07.477 be more podcast episodes from the edition each week. 00:00:08.317 --> 00:00:11.617 Some of them are going to be just me talking about a subject for a few minutes. 00:00:11.637 --> 00:00:16.537 Some of them are going to be the second part of longer conversations I've had with people. 00:00:16.637 --> 00:00:18.757 And that's what we kick off with today. 00:00:19.157 --> 00:00:23.317 But I just love making podcasts. I love having you guys listen to them. 00:00:23.437 --> 00:00:26.197 So I thought we'd make more of them. Let me know what you think. 00:00:26.277 --> 00:00:30.797 Hopefully you like it. and yeah, enjoy these first episodes. 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:41.200 Music. 00:00:40.197 --> 00:00:44.077 Hello and welcome to The Edition Podcast. I'm your host Charlotte Henry. 00:00:44.217 --> 00:00:48.737 This week I'm very excited because normally I have one wonderful guest on the show. 00:00:49.397 --> 00:00:54.037 This week I have two and they're two quite staggeringly brilliant guests. 00:00:54.117 --> 00:00:56.457 I have the two authors of What Works in Community News. 00:00:57.297 --> 00:01:00.657 Ellen Clegg and Dan Kennedy. Ellen, for those who don't know, 00:01:00.697 --> 00:01:02.097 is a top editor at the Boston Globe. 00:01:02.577 --> 00:01:07.137 And Dan Kennedy is a professor at Northwestern University. Such a lustrous guest. Excuse me. 00:01:08.137 --> 00:01:11.657 Northeastern. Northeastern. Oh, sorry. I've caused a civil war already. 00:01:11.917 --> 00:01:14.517 You will. I know. Chaos. Chaos. 00:01:15.397 --> 00:01:17.097 But thank you both for being here. 00:01:18.177 --> 00:01:22.917 We've got a lot to get on with, but why don't we start, Ellen, 00:01:23.057 --> 00:01:25.517 with you laying out the premise of the book? 00:01:25.577 --> 00:01:29.557 Obviously, one of the world's most famous quote-unquote regional 00:01:29.557 --> 00:01:32.477 newspapers you work at lay out the premise 00:01:32.477 --> 00:01:38.597 of the book and how you and Dan came to write it sure well actually uh this 00:01:38.597 --> 00:01:45.797 came about after I retired from the Boston Globe where I worked for 35 plus 00:01:45.797 --> 00:01:51.157 years uh in 2018 I retired as I was editorial page editor. 00:01:51.357 --> 00:01:56.997 Dan and I have known each other a long time, and we wanted to do a project together. 00:01:57.457 --> 00:02:00.537 This, frankly, was Dan's idea. 00:02:02.197 --> 00:02:05.977 And we met at Northeastern University, where he's a professor, 00:02:06.257 --> 00:02:14.457 and sketched out our premise, which was to take a positive approach to look 00:02:14.457 --> 00:02:20.817 at media entrepreneurs who are starting new news sites in news deserts. 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:28.190 Yeah, I love this idea because, first of all, I love the idea of media entrepreneurialism. 00:02:28.390 --> 00:02:33.230 And also I love that there's because there's so much negativity often when we 00:02:33.230 --> 00:02:34.390 talk about this industry. Right. 00:02:34.470 --> 00:02:38.590 I have guests on week in, week out who talk about the death of media and they're 00:02:38.590 --> 00:02:41.110 all fabulous, but it can get a bit depressing. Right. 00:02:41.310 --> 00:02:46.810 I like how you guys try to put a proactive spin on what, you know, 00:02:46.830 --> 00:02:49.090 kind of what can be done. Was that important to you, Dan? 00:02:50.610 --> 00:03:00.690 Oh, absolutely. You know, this is actually my third book in this space and going back to 2012. 00:03:01.210 --> 00:03:10.230 And I have been optimistic all along, and we've seen the sheer quantity of these 00:03:10.230 --> 00:03:13.630 projects accelerating as time has gone on. 00:03:13.630 --> 00:03:17.750 There were a handful when I was writing my first book about this, 00:03:17.870 --> 00:03:21.490 The Wired City, some years back. And today there are hundreds. 00:03:21.950 --> 00:03:26.210 When Alan talks about us getting together at Northeastern with a whiteboard 00:03:26.210 --> 00:03:31.930 to figure out what we were going to actually write about, there were literally 00:03:31.930 --> 00:03:35.050 three or four hundred projects that we could have chosen from. 00:03:35.050 --> 00:03:45.370 And we said, well, we want a diversity of size, geography, ethnic orientation, and business model. 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:47.930 And so we chose on that basis. 00:03:48.270 --> 00:03:54.850 But we have about a dozen projects that we looked at in nine parts of the country, 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:59.490 and we easily could have picked a different dozen. No problem whatsoever. 00:04:01.490 --> 00:04:06.710 What did you make of it? Yeah, we'll come back to the news desert issue and 00:04:06.710 --> 00:04:09.470 local media and regional media in America. 00:04:10.130 --> 00:04:15.190 When you, I assume, even if it's not in the book, you've looked abroad as well to find comparison. 00:04:15.590 --> 00:04:18.890 What strikes you about, say, some of the things happening here in the UK? 00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:22.370 I could name a couple. There's the Manchester Mill, which is a substat that's 00:04:22.370 --> 00:04:25.250 done well in the city of Manchester and a couple of others. 00:04:26.210 --> 00:04:30.690 What's your perception of, are people copying the models you're seeing in the US? 00:04:30.950 --> 00:04:34.670 Are you seeing some kind of positivity from abroad you guys? 00:04:34.770 --> 00:04:38.930 What are you making of the way this is playing out internationally as well? So. 00:04:39.973 --> 00:04:46.593 I was in the UK last year with my spouse, Ellen Zucker, and she was giving a 00:04:46.593 --> 00:04:48.013 lecture. She's an attorney. 00:04:48.193 --> 00:04:54.713 She was giving a lecture at Oxford at Maidland College on American juries. 00:04:55.753 --> 00:05:00.873 And it came up during the lecture that Dan and I had written this book. 00:05:01.053 --> 00:05:05.913 I myself have been part of a nonprofit news outlet in Brookline, 00:05:06.013 --> 00:05:12.733 Massachusetts, where I live. And the discussion was intense and suddenly very personal. 00:05:12.913 --> 00:05:19.713 Everybody was seeing the collapse of their local, largely print newspapers in the UK. 00:05:20.113 --> 00:05:25.293 And everybody was very concerned about the lack of information, 00:05:25.533 --> 00:05:31.853 particularly on local elections and, you know, local issues like public health and climate change. 00:05:32.373 --> 00:05:39.153 Ellen is a lot more worldly than I am, so I'm glad she had a good answer to 00:05:39.153 --> 00:05:40.513 that question. That's why I let her answer. 00:05:41.453 --> 00:05:44.713 First of all, I think it's Magdalen College, and I think they're going to shout at us for that one. 00:05:45.933 --> 00:05:48.613 Magdalen College. Yeah, I think they're very particular. Forgive me. 00:05:49.513 --> 00:05:52.033 It's not me that you need to ask forgiveness from, I promise you. 00:05:52.113 --> 00:05:54.653 I've never been anywhere near Oxford College. 00:05:55.313 --> 00:06:01.293 But let me offer, perhaps, a wrinkle to the optimism that I spoke about, 00:06:01.293 --> 00:06:05.313 Because, you know, as optimistic as we are, 00:06:05.533 --> 00:06:10.693 one of the things that we have found in our reporting, and this is borne out 00:06:10.693 --> 00:06:16.873 by Penny Abernathy, who really is at Northwestern, and we love Penny. 00:06:16.953 --> 00:06:18.853 She's been on our podcast. 00:06:20.987 --> 00:06:27.927 This is much easier to do in affluent suburban communities than it is in urban 00:06:27.927 --> 00:06:31.227 communities of color and rural communities. 00:06:31.447 --> 00:06:34.547 Those are the two difficult nuts to crack. 00:06:34.927 --> 00:06:41.787 So I guess what we're hoping is that maybe this problem can be solved or at 00:06:41.787 --> 00:06:45.187 least partially solved in the more affluent areas. 00:06:45.387 --> 00:06:50.527 And then maybe it can start to spread out to the more difficult parts of the country. 00:06:50.527 --> 00:06:54.307 And, of course, a lot of those communities that you're describing as already, 00:06:54.467 --> 00:06:59.007 you know, it's harder to start these local news projects are already poorly 00:06:59.007 --> 00:07:00.847 served by mainstream media, aren't they, Dan? 00:07:02.387 --> 00:07:08.047 In lots of cases, anyway. Well, in some cases, I mean, certainly the startups 00:07:08.047 --> 00:07:13.067 that we see tend to be in places that really don't have anything. thing. 00:07:13.587 --> 00:07:19.807 But what we have also seen, we've seen some of this in the Boston area where we're from. 00:07:20.287 --> 00:07:25.807 There are some areas that are extremely affluent and extremely well-educated. 00:07:25.847 --> 00:07:30.507 And all of a sudden, they've got two or three of these local startups. 00:07:30.967 --> 00:07:36.707 And I live in a terrific small city, but it's not as affluent as some of these other areas. 00:07:36.867 --> 00:07:39.767 And I'm thinking, gee, come on, why don't you start one in 00:07:39.767 --> 00:07:42.967 my community well maybe you 00:07:42.967 --> 00:07:45.907 can uh well uh if 00:07:45.907 --> 00:07:49.207 i were retired i would strongly consider it 00:07:49.207 --> 00:07:52.227 but still going full blazes ahead 00:07:52.227 --> 00:07:55.227 it is a lot of it 00:07:55.227 --> 00:07:58.267 takes a lot of dedication and time to do 00:07:58.267 --> 00:08:01.147 this hats off to all the founders we talked 00:08:01.147 --> 00:08:04.067 with i'm fascinated by the 00:08:04.067 --> 00:08:08.107 language you're using startup founders use 00:08:08.107 --> 00:08:13.807 the word entrepreneurism at the beginning dan i i'm often struck by how little 00:08:13.807 --> 00:08:18.927 entrepreneurism or even intrapreneurism you know where you're in a big organization 00:08:18.927 --> 00:08:24.347 do something entrepreneur from within it there is i as listeners might imagine 00:08:24.347 --> 00:08:27.667 whiz through Kara Swisher's biography. 00:08:29.267 --> 00:08:36.707 And once I'd stopped sort of fangirling, I, she, there's so much about what 00:08:36.707 --> 00:08:40.427 she and Walt Mossberg did that is the definition of entrepreneurism. 00:08:40.447 --> 00:08:43.207 And she often describes, you know, we only have her word for it, 00:08:43.227 --> 00:08:45.947 the sort of nervousness around the Wall Street Journal. 00:08:46.187 --> 00:08:50.067 But do you think, I mean, you use this language, and do you think that there 00:08:50.067 --> 00:08:55.307 should be more of a sense entrepreneurism and startup culture within media? 00:08:55.407 --> 00:08:58.007 Is that what we kind of need at the moment? Yes, absolutely. 00:08:58.427 --> 00:09:02.307 And one of the things that I think... She's welcome on the show anytime. 00:09:03.136 --> 00:09:08.596 That's right. I think one of the things that we would both emphasize is that 00:09:08.596 --> 00:09:14.256 even though the majority of the projects that we looked at are nonprofit organizations, 00:09:14.956 --> 00:09:19.856 the people who started them are just as entrepreneurial as people who start 00:09:19.856 --> 00:09:21.456 for-profit organizations. 00:09:22.316 --> 00:09:30.136 In fact, what we've seen is that some of the true entrepreneurs who've started 00:09:30.136 --> 00:09:36.816 for-profits never lose sight of where the business is going. 00:09:37.116 --> 00:09:42.236 And so a couple of the projects that we looked at, the Colorado Sun and Santa 00:09:42.236 --> 00:09:48.016 Cruz Local, have switched from for-profit to non-profit just in the time that 00:09:48.016 --> 00:09:49.376 we've been reporting on them. 00:09:49.996 --> 00:09:57.816 So you always have to be attuned to changes in the economic environment and 00:09:57.816 --> 00:10:01.576 be very nimble and entrepreneurial about doing that. 00:10:01.836 --> 00:10:07.436 Yeah, I agree with Dan. And the word nimble is key here. 00:10:08.436 --> 00:10:18.196 I think media, legacy, mainstream media, was not entrepreneurial enough as we 00:10:18.196 --> 00:10:21.876 entered the digital age, as readership patterns changed, 00:10:22.036 --> 00:10:24.976 as the print ad model declined. 00:10:25.496 --> 00:10:33.976 And so once it kind of started to collapse, I think there's this new breed of 00:10:33.976 --> 00:10:37.436 journalists who are willing to take risks, try new things, 00:10:37.556 --> 00:10:41.756 and try new ways of reaching and building an audience. 00:10:43.908 --> 00:10:47.548 I mean, you obviously have the experience, Ellen, from within one of, 00:10:47.628 --> 00:10:53.248 you know, a very well-known legacy media institution at the Boston Globe. 00:10:53.408 --> 00:10:58.788 Did you see the need for that kind of entrepreneurial spirit within the newsroom? 00:10:58.888 --> 00:11:01.028 Were you the person trying to drive it forward? 00:11:01.168 --> 00:11:03.388 What was what was your experience once you were in there? 00:11:03.868 --> 00:11:11.168 There were many people trying to drive it forward. And I think sometimes media 00:11:11.168 --> 00:11:18.308 executives are wrongly maligned for not adapting to the onset of the digital age. 00:11:18.528 --> 00:11:22.908 I think they were slow at the beginning. But at the Boston Globe, 00:11:23.248 --> 00:11:26.388 there was something called the Globe Media Lab. 00:11:26.388 --> 00:11:32.468 There was, as you say, intrapreneurship, developing test websites, 00:11:32.888 --> 00:11:39.968 developing ways of testing, A-B testing for headlines, developing new blogs, 00:11:40.208 --> 00:11:46.068 and even an internal radio station that was on digital. 00:11:46.068 --> 00:11:49.168 It was mostly alternative rock. 00:11:50.188 --> 00:11:59.788 The Globe imported the cast of characters and producers who were on a famous FM rock radio station, 00:11:59.928 --> 00:12:06.628 installed them in our offices with a studio, and they had great programming. 00:12:06.908 --> 00:12:08.848 So we were trying all sorts of things. 00:12:09.608 --> 00:12:16.608 I spent the better part of my career before going into Northeastern at the Boston 00:12:16.608 --> 00:12:22.128 Phoenix, which was a large alternative weekly paper. 00:12:22.608 --> 00:12:27.668 For your listeners who haven't heard of it, it's similar to the Village Voice, except we were better. 00:12:28.368 --> 00:12:32.908 Sure, sure. And, you know, it went out of business in 2013, unfortunately, 00:12:33.128 --> 00:12:40.468 because at the end there were plenty of readers, no ads, free website, free paper. 00:12:40.608 --> 00:12:47.008 And that doesn't work. But during the 40 plus years that they were in existence, 00:12:47.428 --> 00:12:53.808 you're talking about a very entrepreneurial organization that always was moving 00:12:53.808 --> 00:13:00.828 into new businesses that that helped subsidize the other businesses. 00:13:01.708 --> 00:13:05.328 The Phoenix was very well known for its personal ads. You know, 00:13:05.368 --> 00:13:07.748 I want a girlfriend, I want a boyfriend or whatever. 00:13:08.068 --> 00:13:14.508 But what a lot of people didn't know is that the Phoenix pioneered something 00:13:14.508 --> 00:13:19.088 called voice personals, which were based on voicemail back in the day. 00:13:19.168 --> 00:13:25.208 And they did it for like 100 papers around the country. So that's the kind of 00:13:25.208 --> 00:13:26.968 entrepreneurial thinking that 00:13:26.968 --> 00:13:31.728 unfortunately at the Phoenix ended up winding down at a certain point. 00:13:31.828 --> 00:13:38.448 But it's that focus on what's next, what's next, what's next that is going to 00:13:38.448 --> 00:13:41.508 keep a lot of these local news organizations going. 00:13:42.693 --> 00:13:46.473 I mean, the idea of a voice note personal ad sounds absolutely terrifying. 00:13:46.973 --> 00:13:51.233 But anyway, we'll brush over that because I can't really cope with it. 00:13:51.573 --> 00:13:55.773 I won't even tell you about the day that we patched one into the PA system because 00:13:55.773 --> 00:13:58.353 it was very amusing. Oh, no. 00:14:00.133 --> 00:14:05.253 I mean, the idea of playing a personal ad in front of a bunch of journalists 00:14:05.253 --> 00:14:06.813 is just too horrific for words. 00:14:06.893 --> 00:14:10.833 I think we should move on. but um almost deliberately 00:14:10.833 --> 00:14:14.373 you you've brought me to the point about business models 00:14:14.373 --> 00:14:17.393 which really is the centerpiece of the whole thing right your 00:14:17.393 --> 00:14:21.613 book is looking at different business models every conversation we 00:14:21.613 --> 00:14:25.053 have on this show ultimately boils down to a business model add subscriptions 00:14:25.053 --> 00:14:27.873 a combination of the two i'm being a bit crude 00:14:27.873 --> 00:14:30.673 but that's really where it is and you also dan will 00:14:30.673 --> 00:14:35.173 talk about things becoming non-profits is 00:14:35.173 --> 00:14:37.893 jeff bezos going to save media then that's what we all need we need 00:14:37.893 --> 00:14:41.533 a nice uh malevolent billionaire i'm 00:14:41.533 --> 00:14:44.613 not going to describe the face ellen's making as i'm asking talk about jeff 00:14:44.613 --> 00:14:50.253 bezos saving the world um you know this idea of benevolent millionaire saving 00:14:50.253 --> 00:14:55.793 media because just because they can and want to well i mean you know jeff bezos 00:14:55.793 --> 00:15:01.473 and the washington post were the major part uh subject of my last book and um Um, 00:15:01.593 --> 00:15:06.933 Bezos was looking like a pretty benevolent, uh, owner of the post until recently. 00:15:07.133 --> 00:15:11.373 And, uh, I, I hope he may assert the benevolent side of himself again. 00:15:11.793 --> 00:15:19.793 Uh, but, um, what we have found, even though we did look at one legacy newspaper, 00:15:20.213 --> 00:15:24.953 one large legacy newspaper, the Minneapolis Star Tribune, which, 00:15:25.033 --> 00:15:32.753 which Ellen visited and several other for-profits, we're at this odd moment in the U.S. 00:15:32.833 --> 00:15:40.093 Where if you want to start a local news organization, the money tends to be in non-profit. 00:15:40.373 --> 00:15:45.593 There are just more pots of money that you can go after that way. 00:15:45.933 --> 00:15:51.013 You go after voluntary memberships. You go after large foundation grants if 00:15:51.013 --> 00:15:54.973 you can get them gifts from rich people. 00:15:55.733 --> 00:16:01.253 You can still take advertising, try to build an events business. 00:16:01.913 --> 00:16:07.013 Whereas if you're a for-profit startup, you're pretty much stuck with advertising, 00:16:07.333 --> 00:16:14.173 which as we know is not what it used to be, and trying to charge for digital subscriptions, which, 00:16:14.733 --> 00:16:20.713 even though it's worked well at a few national and regional publications is 00:16:20.713 --> 00:16:23.653 not working well at the hyperlocal level. 00:16:25.562 --> 00:16:30.262 I think Ellen and I find ourselves a little bit frustrated in that we think 00:16:30.262 --> 00:16:35.182 we need a diversity of business models for local news. 00:16:35.502 --> 00:16:41.902 And we would love to see some ideas for a robust for-profit alternative. 00:16:42.642 --> 00:16:49.062 But as it turns out, it seems that not only are almost all of the larger ones 00:16:49.062 --> 00:16:54.962 with any reporting capacity, already non-profit, but increasingly some of the 00:16:54.962 --> 00:16:57.102 for-profits are becoming non-profit. 00:16:57.902 --> 00:17:02.882 What was the for-profit model that worked then, Ellen, when you were over in Minneapolis? 00:17:04.362 --> 00:17:11.322 I grew up in Minneapolis and it used to have a morning and an afternoon paper which merged. 00:17:11.602 --> 00:17:17.722 It's called the Minneapolis Star Tribune and it was sold to by a family owner 00:17:17.722 --> 00:17:23.322 in the 90s to a chain called McClatchy. 00:17:24.062 --> 00:17:29.562 McClatchy took on a lot of debt. It's a publicly traded company and eventually 00:17:29.562 --> 00:17:31.202 had to declare bankruptcy. 00:17:31.922 --> 00:17:38.322 So the Star Tribune, which circulates through the entire state of Minnesota 00:17:38.322 --> 00:17:44.682 and some of the adjoining states, was really acquired for parts. 00:17:44.682 --> 00:17:49.782 It's a for-profit paper, 00:17:50.042 --> 00:17:58.642 but they brought back a Minnesotan named Mike Klingensmith from Time Incorporated 00:17:58.642 --> 00:18:03.342 to be in charge, to be the publisher. 00:18:03.342 --> 00:18:07.082 And he restored the newsroom. 00:18:07.182 --> 00:18:11.022 He won Pulitzer Prizes, he and his staff. 00:18:11.222 --> 00:18:15.922 He sold the building, moved to cheaper digs, still downtown. 00:18:16.302 --> 00:18:22.022 And finally, it was purchased by a sports mogul, a billionaire who owns the 00:18:22.022 --> 00:18:23.522 Minnesota Timberwolves basketball 00:18:23.522 --> 00:18:29.122 team. and they've plowed a lot of money into a statewide expansion. 00:18:29.522 --> 00:18:34.122 I think they are considered, along with the Boston Globe, one of the most successful 00:18:34.122 --> 00:18:38.022 regional for-profit newspapers in the United States. 00:18:39.262 --> 00:18:42.462 I hope you enjoyed that first part of the conversation. I found it fascinating. 00:18:42.922 --> 00:18:45.782 The second part is going to drop tomorrow. It's also brilliant. 00:18:46.462 --> 00:18:47.802 And so I'll see you then. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:57.325 Music.