WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000 Music. 00:00:10.157 --> 00:00:15.097 To the edition podcast where we explore the crossover of media and tech. I'm Charlotte Henry. 00:00:15.617 --> 00:00:19.037 This week, I'm thrilled to be joined by Benjamin Mullen, the media reporter 00:00:19.037 --> 00:00:22.137 at the New York Times. Welcome, Ben. How are you? 00:00:22.577 --> 00:00:25.377 Hey, I'm well. Thanks for having me. Thrilled to have you on. 00:00:25.417 --> 00:00:27.617 And we've got a fascinating story to discuss. 00:00:27.737 --> 00:00:31.077 It's about a row at a major news organization in the US. 00:00:31.497 --> 00:00:34.497 The most amazing thing about this story is it's not the place where you work, 00:00:34.537 --> 00:00:36.037 Ben. There's a row somewhere else. 00:00:36.357 --> 00:00:39.497 It's a row at NPR, which 00:00:39.497 --> 00:00:42.577 you've listened have probably picked up on uh well i 00:00:42.577 --> 00:00:45.697 guess we should go to the beginning which is erie bellina who 00:00:45.697 --> 00:00:48.737 is a long-term npr editor who's 00:00:48.737 --> 00:00:51.717 editor on the business desk isn't he um he 00:00:51.717 --> 00:00:57.857 wrote an exhoriating essay for the free press uh in which he basically discussed 00:00:57.857 --> 00:01:03.537 his um his then current employer he went then went on the same the free press 00:01:03.537 --> 00:01:08.417 podcast with barry weiss chet talking about all the the different issues as 00:01:08.417 --> 00:01:10.857 he saw it at his employer NPR. 00:01:11.917 --> 00:01:13.557 Unsurprisingly, he's since left. 00:01:14.657 --> 00:01:18.097 But I got the feeling he was just a sort of, 00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:22.280 one person that personified a lot of the criticism of 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.440 NPR both inside and out so 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:28.800 I guess to start we should get you to explain Ben NPR 00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:32.920 and its significance in the US media ecosystem because obviously I have listeners 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:38.520 in the US listeners in the UK so if you could put NPR in context for us yeah 00:01:38.520 --> 00:01:45.640 NPR and its counterpart PBS are probably the closest thing we have in the United 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:47.300 States to something like the BBC. 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:53.320 It's a news organization that is partially funded by the Corporation for Public 00:01:53.320 --> 00:01:57.840 Broadcasting, which was created in 1967 by Lyndon Johnson. 00:01:58.800 --> 00:02:03.040 And so they get some money from government appropriation. They get most of their 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:07.180 money by selling their news magazines, like all things considered, 00:02:07.300 --> 00:02:11.040 their radio shows, to this network of stations across the US. 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:12.740 So that's kind of what NPR is. 00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:17.720 And yeah, and unlike the BBC, there's not a license fee. There's not a compulsory fee. 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:21.960 It's made up of revenue from a different sources. And there are commercial elements 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:24.760 to it, which is different to the domestic BBC. 00:02:25.600 --> 00:02:29.400 That's right. They sell sponsorships, basically advertising. 00:02:30.320 --> 00:02:33.280 They do get a lot of money by selling shows to their members. 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:38.420 And they've also recently experimented with getting people to pay them money directly 00:02:38.580 --> 00:02:41.380 for uh subscription podcasts yeah and as 00:02:41.380 --> 00:02:44.060 i understand it donation drives are a big thing as well 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:46.780 right with npr donation drives are a really 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:51.560 big deal and have been for decades yeah yeah and so we have this character uh 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:56.600 uri berlina was he like a well-known figure in npr is f or is he more of kind 00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:00.520 of background he didn't have a prominent show or something did he did not have 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:05.280 a prominent show as far as i know it was not a real big on-air personality but was one of these 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:10.020 guys who gets a lot of work done behind the scenes had been there for 25 years as you say. 00:03:10.620 --> 00:03:13.600 Yeah so a kind of significant figure and he 00:03:13.600 --> 00:03:19.860 says he started raising all sorts of issues particularly around diversity but 00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:23.980 what he meant was diversity of views because as he tells the story in the early 00:03:23.980 --> 00:03:30.880 2020s he for example mentions the fallout after the the death of george floyd there was lots 00:03:31.060 --> 00:03:36.620 of focus on diversity, but in terms of race and gender and sexuality and those things. 00:03:36.720 --> 00:03:41.160 And he was also saying, well, hang on, we need to have a diversity of views as well. 00:03:41.260 --> 00:03:46.080 He clearly feels it's got very left leading, not just the kind of soft left 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.440 liberal bias that everyone sort of, as I gather it, associates with NPR. 00:03:49.580 --> 00:03:53.620 But he felt there was a real problem in terms of the political narrative the 00:03:53.620 --> 00:03:58.220 station took and how that reflected in various stories. 00:03:58.640 --> 00:04:02.480 So he talks, doesn't he, in his essay for the free press about their coverage 00:04:02.480 --> 00:04:08.060 of COVID, the reaction to Donald Trump being elected in 2016, things like that. 00:04:09.347 --> 00:04:13.407 Yeah, he talks about all of those stories, and he said that basically NPR had 00:04:13.407 --> 00:04:19.107 sort of coalesced around a progressive worldview and that many of the journalists 00:04:19.107 --> 00:04:24.387 there were unwilling to challenge the liberal orthodoxy around those stories. 00:04:24.387 --> 00:04:29.407 And I should say, you know, there are people at the network, 00:04:29.567 --> 00:04:34.047 as you probably have noticed in your research, that have really pushed back 00:04:34.047 --> 00:04:37.247 against his essay and said, in many cases, 00:04:37.447 --> 00:04:41.747 they found fault with some of the specific examples that he cited in his essay. 00:04:41.747 --> 00:04:43.927 Yeah, so we will come to that. 00:04:44.167 --> 00:04:50.747 But he talks about how many times they have Representative Adam Schiff on, 00:04:50.867 --> 00:04:54.447 who was really pushing the sort of Russia links, if I understand it correctly. 00:04:54.967 --> 00:05:00.007 He talks about how the sort of idea of a COVID lab leak was completely dismissed 00:05:00.007 --> 00:05:04.807 in the early days of the pandemic by senior staff. 00:05:04.807 --> 00:05:09.007 And actually, what was interesting about it as I was reading this is he wasn't 00:05:09.007 --> 00:05:10.907 only talking about the big bosses, was he? 00:05:11.007 --> 00:05:15.267 He seemed to think there was a sort of endemic culture within the staff who 00:05:15.267 --> 00:05:18.227 were also just making the content. It wasn't just coming from on high. 00:05:19.347 --> 00:05:20.887 That was his contention, yes. 00:05:22.387 --> 00:05:27.327 Go on then. As a listener, as someone who studies the media for their job, 00:05:28.047 --> 00:05:32.727 did his complaints have any merit? Is this idea that it was all just a sort 00:05:32.727 --> 00:05:37.247 of a broadcasting college campus, for want of a better phrase, accurate? 00:05:38.830 --> 00:05:42.410 Well, in the wake of his essay getting published, as you probably have seen, 00:05:42.570 --> 00:05:46.650 there were a lot of conservative activists who basically said this is exactly 00:05:46.650 --> 00:05:49.090 what we've been saying the whole time. 00:05:49.150 --> 00:05:51.910 And it's incredibly progressive and liberal. 00:05:53.090 --> 00:05:58.030 And to make any protestations to the contrary is just frankly inaccurate. accurate. 00:05:58.190 --> 00:06:02.950 And I think what the employees of NPR have said is basically, 00:06:03.030 --> 00:06:08.690 in every instance that he brought up, including, you know, when I talked to 00:06:08.690 --> 00:06:10.830 their head of standards around the lab leak story, 00:06:11.150 --> 00:06:18.370 he was telling me that at the time in 2020, the fact that COVID was originated 00:06:18.370 --> 00:06:20.870 in a wet market was the prevailing point of view. 00:06:21.110 --> 00:06:25.470 So for NPR to sort of cover that more prominently than the lab bleak theory, 00:06:25.670 --> 00:06:30.230 that was kind of what everyone or most mainstream organizations were doing at the time. 00:06:30.430 --> 00:06:34.510 Yeah, but he's arguing, as I understand it, and this has been put to other journalistic 00:06:34.510 --> 00:06:38.370 organizations as well, because it is absolutely true that that's kind of what 00:06:38.370 --> 00:06:39.410 we all assumed at the beginning. 00:06:39.490 --> 00:06:42.870 And the truth is, we don't really know the origins and we possibly never will. 00:06:43.770 --> 00:06:47.230 But he, I think, if I read in between the lines of his essays, 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:53.110 arguing that something like NPR should be pushing more and not just accepting a single worldview. 00:06:53.490 --> 00:06:59.390 And he talks also about this idea that as soon as something maybe was discredited. 00:07:01.910 --> 00:07:06.450 NPR didn't do like a mea culpa and just accept, you know, admit that they made a mistake. 00:07:06.810 --> 00:07:09.930 He's obviously quite worried that they just moved on. So he says, 00:07:10.050 --> 00:07:12.970 when the Mueller report found no credible evidence of collusion, 00:07:13.070 --> 00:07:14.830 NPR's coverage was notably sparse. 00:07:15.250 --> 00:07:19.110 Russiagate quietly faded from our programming. That's just one of the examples 00:07:19.110 --> 00:07:21.790 he uses. Was this kind of thing? 00:07:23.230 --> 00:07:28.230 I'm sorry, go ahead. No, please. Well, I was going to say I talked to somebody 00:07:28.230 --> 00:07:33.750 familiar with NPR's Russiagate coverage at the organization who said that they 00:07:33.750 --> 00:07:38.030 actually read the Mueller report on air after it was released. 00:07:38.030 --> 00:07:45.210 So that's another example of an example for which NPR employees basically believe 00:07:45.210 --> 00:07:48.430 that some of his criticism of the network wasn't based in fact. 00:07:49.830 --> 00:07:54.770 Yes. And I was going to ask you, is this kind of thing what people were discussing 00:07:54.770 --> 00:07:56.830 as it was playing out in real time? 00:07:56.930 --> 00:08:00.270 Were people going, oh, NPR isn't covering this properly? 00:08:00.590 --> 00:08:03.530 You know, this is so silly because, you know, for example, there are contentious 00:08:03.530 --> 00:08:07.650 issues here in the UK. UK, for example, the war in Gaza at the moment, 00:08:07.690 --> 00:08:12.730 where people are constantly questioning and pushing back against the BBC's coverage. 00:08:14.101 --> 00:08:17.001 From one direction or the other. Is that what was happening with NPR? 00:08:17.941 --> 00:08:21.681 Definitely. I mean, but NPR wasn't alone. I mean, there are always people who 00:08:21.681 --> 00:08:24.541 take exception with coverage from every news organization. 00:08:25.581 --> 00:08:28.361 NPR, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times. 00:08:28.561 --> 00:08:33.601 I'm sure people targeted NPR for criticism, but I don't think they're alone 00:08:33.601 --> 00:08:36.041 among mainstream news organizations in that respect. 00:08:37.581 --> 00:08:44.521 Expect. Just while we're on it, how significant is NPR in the kind of news ecosystem of the US? 00:08:44.601 --> 00:08:48.721 Because we kind of think it's the New York Times that really makes the waves, 00:08:48.801 --> 00:08:52.721 and then you've got the Washington Post, and then over on TV, 00:08:52.841 --> 00:08:57.141 CNN, Fox News, those kind of the ones that make the waves. 00:08:57.681 --> 00:09:00.801 Is NPR in that bracket, or are we a bit of a lower tier? 00:09:01.621 --> 00:09:08.621 NPR is a really big deal. I think 98% percent of Americans live within a few miles of NPR signals. 00:09:09.001 --> 00:09:12.881 And for people who don't have a broadband connection to the internet, 00:09:13.341 --> 00:09:16.941 NPR is one of the few reliable sources of news that they get. 00:09:17.121 --> 00:09:20.181 So especially in rural areas, NPR is really, really important. 00:09:20.661 --> 00:09:25.521 Yeah. Uri Berliner in his essay talked actually about this image of a farmer 00:09:25.521 --> 00:09:33.101 at dawn listening to NPR on his tractor, which is, that's kind of what they really want, right? 00:09:33.121 --> 00:09:37.701 Because they don't want to be seen as it's kind of only trendy people in New 00:09:37.701 --> 00:09:39.741 York and California that listen to NPR. 00:09:40.421 --> 00:09:43.961 That's not how they see themselves, right? Yeah. 00:09:44.041 --> 00:09:46.701 One of the people I talked to over the last few months was this guy, 00:09:46.741 --> 00:09:49.601 Bill Seemering, who was involved with the founding of NPR. 00:09:50.321 --> 00:09:54.181 And I looked at some of NPR's founding documents for the story. 00:09:54.281 --> 00:09:58.201 And one of the things they really make clear is that NPR is supposed to be for 00:09:58.201 --> 00:09:59.341 Americans of all stripes. 00:10:00.301 --> 00:10:03.121 So yeah, it really is supposed to be something for everyone. 00:10:04.154 --> 00:10:08.954 So we should say if you're impressed by the number of stats and facts, Ben is rattling off. 00:10:08.994 --> 00:10:13.674 It's because he's got a very big, long read in the New York Times on the subject of NPR on its way. 00:10:13.774 --> 00:10:16.634 And it should, by the time you're listening, should be available to read. 00:10:16.714 --> 00:10:19.654 And that will be in the show notes. And I look forward to reading it myself. 00:10:20.554 --> 00:10:24.274 But yeah, Ben's putting two figures after me. 00:10:25.134 --> 00:10:28.934 In case his editor spikes him after we've recorded this, we'll find out. 00:10:29.014 --> 00:10:29.954 We've all been there, Ben. 00:10:30.054 --> 00:10:33.554 We've all been there. um but i'm just 00:10:33.554 --> 00:10:36.294 interested in this idea because for us the bbc is 00:10:36.294 --> 00:10:38.954 so central to the media ecosystem of the 00:10:38.954 --> 00:10:42.014 uk and i'm trying to put npr in 00:10:42.014 --> 00:10:46.894 perspective in a much bigger country with a very different media ecosystem and 00:10:46.894 --> 00:10:52.134 it's interesting you said oh npr sees itself as for people with all stripes 00:10:52.134 --> 00:10:57.134 because actually that's kind of what uri belina was arguing right he was saying 00:10:57.134 --> 00:11:00.434 look we are meant to be for everyone. 00:11:00.574 --> 00:11:03.714 And he says he couldn't find a single registered Democrat in the news, 00:11:03.814 --> 00:11:06.554 sorry, registered Republican in the newsroom. 00:11:06.914 --> 00:11:12.974 He is talking about that he thought there was just no diversity of views. 00:11:13.034 --> 00:11:14.094 That's his whole argument. 00:11:14.374 --> 00:11:18.874 And again, I'm assuming this is criticism we hear quite regularly amongst people 00:11:18.874 --> 00:11:21.254 that bother to talk about this kind of thing in the US. 00:11:22.874 --> 00:11:31.074 Yeah, I brought this question up to NPR recently, basically raising this question 00:11:31.074 --> 00:11:36.514 of ideological diversity and the fact that, according to Uri, there aren't any. 00:11:37.921 --> 00:11:45.161 There aren't any or many conservative people in NPR's Washington Bureau, I think was his claim. 00:11:45.421 --> 00:11:51.061 He talks about how NPR has made an effort to recruit people of color, 00:11:51.101 --> 00:11:54.861 but they haven't made an effort to recruit people that have differing points of view. 00:11:55.301 --> 00:12:00.281 When I raised this with NPR, they said, quote, there is nothing about the strategy 00:12:00.281 --> 00:12:04.101 to include more black and Hispanic listeners that is at odds with ideological 00:12:04.101 --> 00:12:06.921 diversity. We're increasing the people we hire. 00:12:07.081 --> 00:12:10.161 We don't screen them for their ideological beliefs. 00:12:10.421 --> 00:12:14.341 But there's no reason to believe we're not getting ideological diversity when 00:12:14.341 --> 00:12:15.621 we get other forms of diversity. 00:12:16.061 --> 00:12:19.521 People of color are not an ideological monolith. with 00:12:19.521 --> 00:12:22.861 right it's a it's a very clever and 00:12:22.861 --> 00:12:26.141 succinct answer actually because that's of course true that we 00:12:26.141 --> 00:12:31.781 you can't throw different people you know racial groups are not one ideological 00:12:31.781 --> 00:12:37.401 block and so it's a it's a fair point if you're focusing on one kind of diversity 00:12:37.401 --> 00:12:42.041 you should in theory get other kinds and he was quite critical wasn't he of 00:12:42.041 --> 00:12:44.641 sort of all if not you know, 00:12:44.681 --> 00:12:49.501 all the different kind of groups for different identity. 00:12:49.741 --> 00:12:53.401 So there was a sort of LGBT group. There was a group for people of color. 00:12:53.461 --> 00:12:57.121 There was a group for, I think there was a Jewish group he mentioned as well. 00:12:58.781 --> 00:13:03.981 And he was, he was sort of, I didn't think he seemed concerned about that because 00:13:03.981 --> 00:13:05.661 it sort of put everyone in silence. 00:13:05.701 --> 00:13:10.021 And he says they had a very big influence on the language everyone at NPR used. 00:13:10.861 --> 00:13:23.181 Yeah. Somebody forwarded me an email exchange that Uri sent to – that Uri sent 00:13:23.181 --> 00:13:28.481 to people when they were going over whether or not to use terminology to Gaza and Israel. 00:13:28.481 --> 00:13:35.561 And the question was basically whether they should include language from journalistic 00:13:35.561 --> 00:13:36.801 associations of people, 00:13:37.041 --> 00:13:43.801 for example, Jewish groups or people from – journalism organizations from the Middle East. 00:13:44.721 --> 00:13:48.241 And he said in this email exchange, which I think is interesting, 00:13:48.621 --> 00:13:52.341 he said, we are NPR journalists. 00:13:52.661 --> 00:13:57.401 We don't need to rely on an advocacy group's guidance. Our job is to seek out 00:13:57.401 --> 00:13:58.521 the facts and report them. 00:13:59.001 --> 00:14:04.821 So he was kind of taking issue with this idea of there being guidance from different 00:14:04.821 --> 00:14:07.221 kinds of journalists who associate for different reasons. 00:14:08.341 --> 00:14:13.041 Yeah, he did seem to be comfortable with that. But I'm thinking like in any 00:14:13.041 --> 00:14:16.961 other large organization, I don't know if it's the case where you work. 00:14:18.001 --> 00:14:23.581 There are these kind of groups to help bring people from different backgrounds 00:14:23.581 --> 00:14:27.581 together. together, you know, it can be a source of comfort amongst colleagues. 00:14:27.661 --> 00:14:29.921 It can be great networking opportunities. 00:14:30.661 --> 00:14:35.201 It doesn't seem to me so strange that an organisation the size of NPR would have groups like that. 00:14:36.562 --> 00:14:42.142 No. And many people in those groups, you know, after his essay was published, 00:14:42.382 --> 00:14:48.362 as you can imagine, the Slack channels were full of messages in those groups 00:14:48.362 --> 00:14:49.942 basically taking issue with his essay. 00:14:51.062 --> 00:14:55.922 Yeah. So let's come to that, because I'm interested in what the reaction both 00:14:55.922 --> 00:15:02.222 in NPR and the wider American kind of journalism fraternity has been to all of this route, 00:15:02.302 --> 00:15:07.702 because it's been a very significant route that's gone on for a couple of weeks now. Yeah, definitely. 00:15:09.462 --> 00:15:14.522 I've heard from a lot of NPR employees who, like I said, dispute some of the 00:15:14.522 --> 00:15:15.822 basic facts in his essay. 00:15:17.322 --> 00:15:22.022 Uri has said that there are many people who've reached out to support him, 00:15:22.062 --> 00:15:26.882 and I found at least two examples of former or very senior NPR employees who 00:15:26.882 --> 00:15:32.982 said that his essay was brave and basically gave him plaudits for writing it. 00:15:32.982 --> 00:15:38.482 I think definitely among conservatives, you're seeing a reaction of either explicit 00:15:38.482 --> 00:15:43.062 support or in some cases you're seeing conservative activists using it as a 00:15:43.062 --> 00:15:47.042 – to make the argument that NPR should be stripped of its government funding 00:15:47.042 --> 00:15:48.642 because it's too liberal. 00:15:49.382 --> 00:15:53.782 And then basically while he was still there, when I was hearing from people 00:15:53.782 --> 00:15:58.602 who worked with him, they basically told me that it was hard for them to trust 00:15:58.602 --> 00:16:01.422 him and that they didn't feel comfortable working with him anymore. 00:16:01.422 --> 00:16:04.402 Which is of course leads us to why 00:16:04.402 --> 00:16:07.582 he ultimately left has there been 00:16:07.582 --> 00:16:10.862 and i haven't heard it have there been other public 00:16:10.862 --> 00:16:15.682 declarations of support of other npr relatively senior figures because he was 00:16:15.682 --> 00:16:20.082 a you know a fairly senior editor have other figures come forward and said actually 00:16:20.082 --> 00:16:25.482 this is right it's a problem i've been trying to raise within npr it's a good 00:16:25.482 --> 00:16:27.122 question um there was one There 00:16:27.122 --> 00:16:30.022 was one person who said that his essay was brave, a former NPR employee. 00:16:30.662 --> 00:16:34.502 But wouldn't put their name to that comment. They said that on Facebook. 00:16:34.962 --> 00:16:38.462 Okay. I believe that person did put his name to that comment, 00:16:38.522 --> 00:16:40.142 but I can't recall his name at the moment. 00:16:41.822 --> 00:16:48.262 Former NPR public editor or ombudsman also said that Yuri wasn't wrong in his essay. 00:16:49.422 --> 00:16:53.522 So there have been some people who've expressed support with his essay. 00:16:53.522 --> 00:17:04.662 I talked to a – an employee of an NPR member station who basically is suing NPR, 00:17:05.002 --> 00:17:09.062 the public university system that he belongs to. 00:17:09.422 --> 00:17:16.202 He said – he agrees with Uri, and he said it hasn't taken ideological diversity into account. 00:17:16.202 --> 00:17:19.422 He said, quote, the demographics of the country being what they are, 00:17:19.522 --> 00:17:22.702 it goes without saying that if you want to have a sustainable business going 00:17:22.702 --> 00:17:24.902 forward, you have to reach new audiences. 00:17:25.402 --> 00:17:27.442 I think the question is how you're doing that. 00:17:28.596 --> 00:17:33.096 So, yeah, there are people who agree with him, for sure. What's fascinating 00:17:33.096 --> 00:17:37.416 as you're laying all this out is, once again, how familiar some of this is with 00:17:37.416 --> 00:17:38.716 the arguments against the BBC. 00:17:39.096 --> 00:17:44.616 There's often people, usually from the right, who talk about wanting to defund 00:17:44.616 --> 00:17:48.756 the BBC, who don't want to have to pay the licence fee, which is, of course, compulsory. 00:17:48.776 --> 00:17:53.056 It's a criminal offence not to pay the licence fee and to watch live television here in the UK. 00:17:53.056 --> 00:18:00.016 Um and as soon as you said oh yeah people conservatives small c in your case 00:18:00.016 --> 00:18:07.496 want to defund npr strip npr of its government funding i'm just seeing the comparisons the whole time, 00:18:08.056 --> 00:18:10.816 yeah are they already are they made any headway in the 00:18:10.816 --> 00:18:13.916 uk well we're at a very interesting 00:18:13.916 --> 00:18:17.096 inflection point because we're at the point where there's there are discussions 00:18:17.096 --> 00:18:20.196 about the future of the the bbc in the future licensing arrangement which 00:18:20.196 --> 00:18:22.936 ends is coming to it you know they're having 00:18:22.936 --> 00:18:26.036 to decide the end of that i think it's end of 24 to 00:18:26.036 --> 00:18:28.896 start of 25 is the need there's a couple of 00:18:28.896 --> 00:18:33.556 boards in place which i've written about and there's a couple so this process 00:18:33.556 --> 00:18:38.476 is in tract and you know people even senior levels within the bbc are starting 00:18:38.476 --> 00:18:42.596 to have to consider life without the license fee i think is you know from the 00:18:42.596 --> 00:18:46.496 conversations i'm having and you know even even public speeches that you're seeing. 00:18:46.676 --> 00:18:51.516 And so that's why this comparison is so interesting and why that is why I was 00:18:51.516 --> 00:18:55.096 so keen to discuss this story, because I think it has relevance both sides of the Atlantic. 00:18:55.716 --> 00:18:58.696 You know, it's interesting to me. I don't know if you have this expression in 00:18:58.696 --> 00:19:02.616 the UK, but we say in the US occasionally people hate Congress, 00:19:02.676 --> 00:19:03.976 but they love their congressmen. 00:19:05.276 --> 00:19:09.436 And I think the same is true of NPR. You know, there are a lot of people who 00:19:09.436 --> 00:19:10.916 believe in defunding NPR. 00:19:11.096 --> 00:19:14.616 And like clockwork every 10 years or so, So, um... 00:19:15.597 --> 00:19:18.397 Legislators talk about it but one of the reasons that it 00:19:18.397 --> 00:19:21.337 never happens is because people actually do like their 00:19:21.337 --> 00:19:24.297 local npr station whether they're liberal or conservative for 00:19:24.297 --> 00:19:27.977 the most part right and people we 00:19:27.977 --> 00:19:31.157 don't need to have a whole debate about the license but there is obviously 00:19:31.157 --> 00:19:34.137 at certain point um a regressive nature 00:19:34.137 --> 00:19:37.777 to the license fee right i pay as much to 00:19:37.777 --> 00:19:41.037 watch television as a millionaire pays the 00:19:41.037 --> 00:19:45.817 cost is the same and so there's obviously a intrinsic sort 00:19:45.817 --> 00:19:48.637 of regressive nature to it i also happen to think it's 00:19:48.637 --> 00:19:51.797 whatever my criticism of the bbc it's the best subscription i 00:19:51.797 --> 00:19:55.637 ever pay for it is immensely good value because it covers pays for the radio 00:19:55.637 --> 00:19:59.897 stations basically online it pays for everything but there's obviously a regressive 00:19:59.897 --> 00:20:05.857 nature to it whereas with npr you you know if you're a sort of richer person 00:20:05.857 --> 00:20:09.917 who likes npr you can put your money directly to it as part of a donation drive 00:20:09.917 --> 00:20:11.637 and things like that Yeah, 00:20:11.737 --> 00:20:13.897 they don't get more NPR for their money, 00:20:14.057 --> 00:20:18.597 just like the millionaire doesn't get more BBC for their money. Right, exactly. 00:20:19.017 --> 00:20:22.857 And there'll be, I guess, discussions in both organizations as we go forward 00:20:22.857 --> 00:20:27.777 about how to make people give more and perhaps therefore get more from those organizations. 00:20:29.217 --> 00:20:33.557 But I guess there's no serious, from what you're saying, it doesn't seem like 00:20:33.557 --> 00:20:37.657 there's any serious risk of any kind of major defunding of NPR. 00:20:38.217 --> 00:20:43.317 No, if I had to bet, I would say the saber rattling, including by former President 00:20:43.317 --> 00:20:45.177 Donald Trump. Oh, you shocked me. 00:20:48.386 --> 00:20:52.126 That probably won't result in uh in defunding 00:20:52.126 --> 00:20:55.226 npr isn't he too busy having naps in courtrooms and 00:20:55.226 --> 00:20:58.266 things to be worried about npr he posted on 00:20:58.266 --> 00:21:04.106 truth social that he thinks npr should be defunded um so but but again that 00:21:04.106 --> 00:21:09.266 you know that power doesn't doesn't belong to him i don't you know even if he's 00:21:09.266 --> 00:21:14.906 elected that'll be the congress um and it does lead me to this question i guess 00:21:14.906 --> 00:21:17.266 of What is next for NPR after this? 00:21:17.406 --> 00:21:22.166 You know, you're saying there's some people that think there's some very good points being made here. 00:21:22.306 --> 00:21:29.846 Some people, including his direct colleagues, are disputing the account of the problems at NPR. 00:21:31.086 --> 00:21:36.886 No newsroom is perfect. And I think the early 2020s were a bit of a shock to 00:21:36.886 --> 00:21:41.146 the system and a chance to reassess for lots of people in media in all sorts of ways. 00:21:41.566 --> 00:21:44.306 Where does NPR go from here? 00:21:45.146 --> 00:21:48.086 But there's obviously a new person in charge as well, isn't there? 00:21:48.146 --> 00:21:49.266 We haven't talked about the new CEO. 00:21:49.886 --> 00:21:54.766 That's right. They have a new CEO, Catherine Marr, who was previously the CEO 00:21:54.766 --> 00:21:58.486 of Wikimedia Foundation, which is the nonprofit that supports Wikipedia. 00:21:59.586 --> 00:22:06.706 And she's not really a news person. There's been a lot of criticism of her social media posts. 00:22:06.886 --> 00:22:10.366 Yes. The ones that criticized former President Donald Trump, 00:22:10.506 --> 00:22:15.346 that expressed solidarity with with with liberal candidates. 00:22:16.606 --> 00:22:20.886 So but she's kind of an unconventional choice for CEO. And I think it's very 00:22:20.886 --> 00:22:23.706 unclear which direction she's going to take the network. 00:22:24.426 --> 00:22:27.286 Presumably they want I'm just thinking out loud. Presumably they wanted her 00:22:27.286 --> 00:22:32.126 with her tech background because that's how any news organization has to think in 2024. 00:22:32.706 --> 00:22:39.286 Yes. You know, I think one point that we haven't discussed yet that I think 00:22:39.286 --> 00:22:41.426 really gets to the heart of what NPR's. 00:22:42.667 --> 00:22:46.927 Problem is, or what their big challenge is, is that because of the way that 00:22:46.927 --> 00:22:53.347 NPR was set up, their board of directors is by government fiat made up of a 00:22:53.347 --> 00:22:54.867 majority of their member stations. 00:22:55.927 --> 00:23:01.527 And what that means is that basically members of NPR, the primary customers 00:23:01.527 --> 00:23:03.927 of their content, control the nonprofit. 00:23:04.447 --> 00:23:07.787 And that's never going to change unless they amend their bylaws. 00:23:08.067 --> 00:23:09.667 Which is not the accident, I'm guessing. 00:23:10.087 --> 00:23:14.287 Right. And I think the reason that's important is because these member stations 00:23:14.287 --> 00:23:21.627 are in many ways competitors to NPR for donors and in some ways for subscribers. 00:23:22.467 --> 00:23:29.067 And so it's hard for NPR basically to build a big subscription business and 00:23:29.067 --> 00:23:35.047 to be a fundraising powerhouse if they have to be in direct competition with their members. 00:23:35.407 --> 00:23:40.947 And that's not going to change as far as I can see. So there's this intrinsic conflict in there. 00:23:41.847 --> 00:23:45.107 Yeah, it's built into their bylaws and it's probably not going to change. 00:23:46.127 --> 00:23:51.247 Yeah, I mean, I guess if you or I could fix it, we'd be high-flying executives 00:23:51.247 --> 00:23:52.587 not chatting on a podcast. 00:23:52.767 --> 00:24:00.167 But it's an interesting dilemma because there's this idea that they're making, 00:24:00.467 --> 00:24:04.207 they're both a content, you know, they distribute content on their channels 00:24:04.207 --> 00:24:07.447 and also sell it off to other people. It's quite an interesting dynamic. 00:24:08.367 --> 00:24:12.307 Yeah, it's a really, I think it's a really, in some ways, it's a great business 00:24:12.307 --> 00:24:16.727 model because they're kind of guaranteed to have a buyer for their programming every year. 00:24:18.187 --> 00:24:24.567 But when they want to basically, you know, build a business that's in competition 00:24:24.567 --> 00:24:29.327 with their members, like a subscription business, that's when it gets really dicey. 00:24:30.496 --> 00:24:34.156 And it's interesting because we see this in lots of other ways in the tech sector, 00:24:34.216 --> 00:24:37.716 you know, the different streaming services and who freaks out when someone wants 00:24:37.716 --> 00:24:39.696 to launch a streaming service and that kind of thing. 00:24:39.876 --> 00:24:44.096 And then, you know, you've got the sports broadcasters both working together 00:24:44.096 --> 00:24:45.936 and then trying to launch their own products. 00:24:46.516 --> 00:24:48.296 There's all sorts of things going on there. 00:24:49.236 --> 00:24:51.976 The other element of this story I wanted to discuss with you, 00:24:52.016 --> 00:24:55.296 and this is because we're in a safe space for media nerds, so we're OK. 00:24:56.416 --> 00:25:01.536 This is a safe space. No, it's OK. OK, I found it interesting, 00:25:01.816 --> 00:25:04.856 fascinating about where this essay was published. 00:25:05.056 --> 00:25:09.076 It was published in the Free Press, which obviously is run by Barry Weiss. 00:25:10.276 --> 00:25:14.396 We know she's done her own essay about her former employer as well, 00:25:14.476 --> 00:25:15.796 which I'll infamously now. 00:25:16.236 --> 00:25:20.456 I just found it really interesting that this, you know, people like you and 00:25:20.456 --> 00:25:25.196 I know about the Free Press, but I'm not sure how many others do, 00:25:25.296 --> 00:25:28.956 although I think they're pushing a million or something. I know they're doing pretty well. 00:25:29.556 --> 00:25:37.196 But it's an interesting choice to have published it there. It's a good get by the free press. 00:25:37.396 --> 00:25:41.096 It was a fascinating dynamic to this, which I haven't heard discussed elsewhere. 00:25:41.936 --> 00:25:49.396 Yeah. It's my understanding that Uri knew Nellie Bowles. Ah, Barry Weiss's wife. 00:25:50.116 --> 00:25:55.116 And who, as you know, is quite a good tech journalist. 00:25:55.596 --> 00:26:00.916 She is. I believe had worked for the New York Times for some time. 00:26:01.296 --> 00:26:06.576 So I think that there was a connection there, and it's possible that the decision 00:26:06.576 --> 00:26:10.356 to write for the Free Press could have emanated from those conversations. publications. 00:26:11.116 --> 00:26:16.876 But I also took note of that too, that it wasn't published in the New York Times 00:26:16.876 --> 00:26:18.756 or the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post. 00:26:19.916 --> 00:26:26.336 And I wonder if that was just because of the fact that he already knew some 00:26:26.336 --> 00:26:31.616 of the people over there or because he might've had an inkling that the free 00:26:31.616 --> 00:26:34.836 press would have been sympathetic to his point of view. 00:26:35.376 --> 00:26:39.936 Yeah. And ultimately, It's a pretty good get for the free press now. 00:26:39.976 --> 00:26:43.776 It's had significant people. It's had stories that have caused ripples before. It absolutely has. 00:26:43.996 --> 00:26:47.736 But this in kind of media world, particularly American media world, 00:26:47.816 --> 00:26:50.616 has really caused kind of ripples. 00:26:51.136 --> 00:26:54.936 So it was interesting. They've done pretty well out of that as well, Barry Weiss and co. 00:26:56.189 --> 00:27:00.329 They definitely have been. I think I saw after Uri resigned, 00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:02.269 I think they re-shared his essay. 00:27:03.269 --> 00:27:07.449 And he, as you probably remember, he was briefly suspended by NPR, 00:27:07.629 --> 00:27:12.549 not because of what he said, but for violating their guidelines around outside work. 00:27:13.009 --> 00:27:18.909 And if I remember correctly, the Free Press re-shared his essay in those cases. 00:27:20.889 --> 00:27:23.889 Okay that's interesting so yeah there's 00:27:23.889 --> 00:27:27.949 all this we go obviously he's now no longer at npr 00:27:27.949 --> 00:27:30.669 do we think there is a sort of we're going to see him 00:27:30.669 --> 00:27:34.149 become the free press media correspondent or something aren't we surely i 00:27:34.149 --> 00:27:39.569 called him um after he resigned and uh he basically said that he has no plans 00:27:39.569 --> 00:27:45.089 except um you know to spend more time with his family um and i think you know 00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:49.889 my My impression is that I was joking with him that he must be relieved not 00:27:49.889 --> 00:27:52.389 to have a deadline after 25 years at NPR. 00:27:52.609 --> 00:27:55.089 And he laughed and he said that that was definitely the case. 00:27:56.189 --> 00:28:00.129 Yeah, I mean, we can all have some sympathy with that point of view. 00:28:00.669 --> 00:28:04.909 It is. I wonder if, as I was listening on the podcast, 00:28:05.029 --> 00:28:08.689 I kind of also thought this is someone who has had, you know, 00:28:08.709 --> 00:28:13.229 by any standards, an impressive career to stay within journalism, 00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:18.569 within NPR, to be a senior figure within an organisation that is without doubt impressive. 00:28:18.569 --> 00:28:23.149 If he's clearly he could he clearly cared about NPR when you listen to when 00:28:23.149 --> 00:28:30.069 you read him this wasn't a sort of lashing out it was a frustration uh sort 00:28:30.069 --> 00:28:32.209 of at something that he really cared about, 00:28:33.149 --> 00:28:38.229 yeah when I talked to him he told me that he loved NPR yeah um you know there 00:28:38.229 --> 00:28:42.749 are a lot of people who I've heard from who worked with him um who really enjoyed 00:28:42.749 --> 00:28:47.749 their experience um so yeah I I definitely don't think this is a case where 00:28:47.749 --> 00:28:50.789 this guy was just a ticking time bomb within NPR, 00:28:50.869 --> 00:28:53.409 just waiting to lash out at the organization. 00:28:54.489 --> 00:28:59.809 No, it doesn't feel like that. And I guess in some ways that makes it more important 00:28:59.809 --> 00:29:02.349 for NPR to take some of it on board. 00:29:02.449 --> 00:29:06.169 It's easy in these situations to kind of have a siege mentality, 00:29:06.469 --> 00:29:08.889 right? And be like, oh, he's a one-off. 00:29:09.009 --> 00:29:12.189 He's, you know, he's 25 years. He's a bit of an old hand. 00:29:12.329 --> 00:29:16.849 Things have moved on. You know, you can imagine the sort of OK Boomer kind of 00:29:16.849 --> 00:29:18.229 view amongst some of the staff. 00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:24.709 But sort of if he's a reasonable guy, people have liked work with him. 00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:27.329 I guess NPR could do worse than take some of it on board. 00:29:28.714 --> 00:29:32.654 My view as a media reporter, and it would be hypocritical if I didn't feel this 00:29:32.654 --> 00:29:37.354 way, is that basically you always learn something when you listen to your critics. 00:29:37.874 --> 00:29:41.334 It's always good to listen to your critics, even if you disagree with them. 00:29:43.274 --> 00:29:46.874 So that's basically fundamentally where I proceed from philosophically. 00:29:48.434 --> 00:29:52.174 Well, of course, there's never any criticism of your story, so it's absolutely fine. 00:29:52.174 --> 00:29:55.014 Fine um i'm kind of 00:29:55.014 --> 00:29:57.994 obviously look i do the show because i i love watching how 00:29:57.994 --> 00:30:02.574 these stories play out i remain unconvinced this will be the last time we hear 00:30:02.574 --> 00:30:09.134 either about ructions within npr particularly as we get towards the 2024 election 00:30:09.134 --> 00:30:12.654 i think that's going to be very interesting because i think there's going to 00:30:12.654 --> 00:30:17.154 be so much scrutiny of their coverage now i think that the next 00:30:17.334 --> 00:30:20.074 six months or so is going to 00:30:20.074 --> 00:30:22.734 be incredibly interesting it's going to 00:30:22.734 --> 00:30:27.294 be an interesting time to be covering media in the u.s because um there's 00:30:27.294 --> 00:30:32.914 a ton of stories including president trump uh being on trial and how do you 00:30:32.914 --> 00:30:38.954 cover the election when president trump is essentially campaigning from the 00:30:38.954 --> 00:30:43.874 courthouse steps and president biden isn't doing much campaigning at all as far as i 00:30:43.914 --> 00:30:52.434 can tell um it's and also um you know we we are truly in unprecedented times 00:30:52.434 --> 00:30:57.994 for this election and i think um it's i think every media organization is going 00:30:57.994 --> 00:30:59.234 to have their fair share of, 00:31:00.414 --> 00:31:05.914 um you know opportunities to excel and potentially let their readers down. 00:31:07.254 --> 00:31:10.334 Well you've just talked yourself into coming back on the show to discuss all 00:31:10.334 --> 00:31:12.094 of this as we get Yeah, towards November. 00:31:12.994 --> 00:31:16.014 Ben Mullen of the New York Times, thanks so, so much for joining me. 00:31:16.014 --> 00:31:17.754 Where can people keep up with all your fantastic work? 00:31:19.314 --> 00:31:22.794 You can read anything I write on the New York Times and then I'm on Twitter 00:31:22.794 --> 00:31:25.394 and threads at Ben Mullen. 00:31:26.874 --> 00:31:32.034 Yes, I follow him there. Keep up with it. I look forward to reading your long read on NPR as well. 00:31:32.454 --> 00:31:37.414 I'm at Charlotte A. Henry across the social, so come check me out there. 00:31:37.574 --> 00:31:41.074 But of course, head over to theedition.net where there's blog posts there. 00:31:41.134 --> 00:31:43.154 You can subscribe to the newsletter. 00:31:44.014 --> 00:31:47.614 Obviously, I would love you, particularly if you take out a paid subscription to the newsletter. 00:31:48.314 --> 00:31:52.694 Send that $5 my way. NPR don't need it. They're fine, honestly. 00:31:53.294 --> 00:31:56.034 Send it my way. I'll really appreciate it. 00:31:57.194 --> 00:32:01.134 Ben, thank you once again for joining me and I'll see you all next week. 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:10.845 Music.