WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.840 Music. 00:00:09.689 --> 00:00:13.649 Hello and welcome to The Edition podcast. I'm Charlotte Henry. 00:00:13.809 --> 00:00:17.609 I'm very pleased to have you here. It's a bright sunny day and it's not just 00:00:17.609 --> 00:00:22.049 Independence Day in America, it is Voting Day here in the UK. 00:00:22.129 --> 00:00:26.109 We're recording this on Thursday the 4th of July, which means the polls have opened in the UK. 00:00:26.329 --> 00:00:30.029 It also means I don't know the results of the election when I'm recording this. 00:00:30.109 --> 00:00:33.569 It means my lovely guest Chris Stoker-Walker doesn't know the results when we're 00:00:33.569 --> 00:00:34.709 recording this. Hello, Hello, Chris. 00:00:35.009 --> 00:00:39.709 Hello. I mean, we do kind of know the results. We do kind of know anyway, sort of, yes. 00:00:39.909 --> 00:00:42.969 But what we want to talk about is not the results, of course, 00:00:43.049 --> 00:00:44.189 because that's not really for this show. 00:00:44.289 --> 00:00:47.209 If you want to hear me talk about that, head over to House of Comments, 00:00:47.209 --> 00:00:50.309 where I discuss all things politics with Emma Bunnell. 00:00:50.569 --> 00:00:55.449 What I want to discuss here is the kind of media campaign around this election, 00:00:55.569 --> 00:00:58.789 and in particular, the social media campaign around this election, 00:00:58.989 --> 00:01:00.609 and in particular, TikTok. 00:01:01.249 --> 00:01:04.609 I just found the guy that wrote a book on it. That's amazing that I have you 00:01:04.609 --> 00:01:05.849 here, Chris, isn't it? What a coincidence. 00:01:06.509 --> 00:01:10.509 Weird, very weird. Weird how this worked out. So Chris is here. 00:01:11.189 --> 00:01:14.849 There was talk, wasn't there, Chris, before all this happened. 00:01:14.889 --> 00:01:18.089 When Rishi Sunak in the rain announced the election, there was lots of, 00:01:18.089 --> 00:01:19.529 oh, is this going to be the TikTok election? 00:01:20.546 --> 00:01:23.466 So let's start with the key question. Has this been the TikTok election? 00:01:23.826 --> 00:01:28.326 It's been an election where TikTok did happen and where people did communicate 00:01:28.326 --> 00:01:30.146 via TikTok. TikToks were made? 00:01:30.546 --> 00:01:33.966 Yeah, TikToks were made during this election, an awful lot of them, in fact. 00:01:34.046 --> 00:01:40.466 There was a bit of data put out by Fenimore Harper, which was like an agency 00:01:40.466 --> 00:01:43.246 that has been looking at this, was posted by Sophia Smith-Gaylor, 00:01:43.326 --> 00:01:47.106 who is not unknown to have TikToked. And Labour... 00:01:47.786 --> 00:01:50.886 I've interviewed her for Media Voices. Exactly. So, you know, 00:01:50.886 --> 00:01:55.566 Labour put out 162 TikToks over the course of the campaign, which is, 00:01:55.606 --> 00:01:57.266 you know, a lot of TikToks. 00:01:57.266 --> 00:02:00.346 But I mean, whether or not this will actually make the slightest bit of difference 00:02:00.346 --> 00:02:03.206 at the ballot box, I'm not so certain. 00:02:03.226 --> 00:02:09.086 In part because I think that we do in the media love a good, this is new narrative. 00:02:09.266 --> 00:02:14.586 God bless us for our news values. And I think, you know, I'm at that grizzled 00:02:14.586 --> 00:02:17.546 age now where I can talk about these things in the past and say, 00:02:17.546 --> 00:02:21.866 I have covered previous elections where we have said this is the first social 00:02:21.866 --> 00:02:23.626 media election about three times. 00:02:23.786 --> 00:02:26.826 And so I think the idea that this is the first TikTok election or that it really 00:02:26.826 --> 00:02:31.406 makes a difference, not so sure about it. Although I guess it does help in some 00:02:31.406 --> 00:02:34.646 way in terms of osmosis of candidates and parties. 00:02:34.986 --> 00:02:38.586 Yeah. And I've noticed a different tone, actually. 00:02:39.006 --> 00:02:44.006 So like I've seen a few different parties publish stuff on social media in particular. 00:02:44.006 --> 00:02:50.466 And they tend to take a much more relaxed sort of piss-taking tone often on 00:02:50.466 --> 00:02:53.126 TikTok that they wouldn't take in sort of more formal communications. 00:02:54.246 --> 00:03:01.366 And I think that is the thing, and it's interesting. So I have been asked a 00:03:01.366 --> 00:03:05.106 few times to write stories about how TikTok is being used in this election campaign. 00:03:05.126 --> 00:03:09.206 And through that, I've spoken to people, not actually on the Labour side. 00:03:09.306 --> 00:03:13.886 They were too busy repairing, I guess, for government. but on the Tory side 00:03:13.886 --> 00:03:17.846 who pointed out that that kind of flippancy. 00:03:19.223 --> 00:03:22.183 Is fine but they questioned 00:03:22.183 --> 00:03:25.063 the extent to which that would cut through they were like actually 00:03:25.063 --> 00:03:28.643 does it matter if you make a load of memes on tiktok like 00:03:28.643 --> 00:03:32.123 does that actually translate into people voting on election 00:03:32.123 --> 00:03:38.843 day for you and i guess the answer to that will be in the exit poll at 10 o'clock 00:03:38.843 --> 00:03:44.143 tonight but also i suppose the answer has also been in terms of um yeah the 00:03:44.143 --> 00:03:48.003 polling that's gone ahead i'm not sure whether or not that's because of tiktok 00:03:48.003 --> 00:03:50.883 i certainly don't think it is But I do think you're right in that there is a, 00:03:50.903 --> 00:03:55.423 it's kind of like the digital equivalent of Ed Davey doing all of his weird stunts, right? 00:03:55.943 --> 00:03:59.303 It's a different way of communicating to the electorate. And actually, 00:03:59.423 --> 00:04:03.143 if it gets you out in front of the public, then maybe that helps. 00:04:03.243 --> 00:04:05.943 But I don't think it's kind of a place where we're seeing huge, 00:04:05.983 --> 00:04:10.243 intense debates on policies and how this is going to change the country. 00:04:10.483 --> 00:04:15.543 No, we certainly haven't. TikTok did launch a UK General Election Centre within the app. 00:04:15.543 --> 00:04:20.343 App they wanted to provide the users with sort of reliable and authoritative information. 00:04:21.023 --> 00:04:24.463 Authoritative information as they put it um did 00:04:24.463 --> 00:04:27.883 you see that working not working did it make any impact i think 00:04:27.883 --> 00:04:33.903 it it stopped a lot of the stuff although you know you will always what do you 00:04:33.903 --> 00:04:37.623 mean by that the sort of disinformation we can get at election times yeah or 00:04:37.623 --> 00:04:42.663 it was labeled with it correctly labeled a lot of the disinformation that we 00:04:42.663 --> 00:04:46.863 saw although there were There were relatively big errors in it. 00:04:46.903 --> 00:04:51.763 Most notably, Reform kicked up a big fuss when their livestream on TikTok of 00:04:51.763 --> 00:04:54.623 Anne Widdicombe talking about stuff was taken down for... 00:04:56.456 --> 00:04:59.536 I don't remember the exact reason. I think it was hate speech or something like 00:04:59.536 --> 00:05:02.656 that, but it breached one of their rules in some shape or form. 00:05:02.876 --> 00:05:09.716 And you're always going to have those errors of judgment that you make. 00:05:09.896 --> 00:05:14.496 And social media is not really any different to traditional media around that. 00:05:14.816 --> 00:05:20.376 We had Gita Gurumurty on the BBC who had to kind of apologise for comments around 00:05:20.376 --> 00:05:24.716 Nigel Farage because in part, Nigel Farage will always complain about his coverage 00:05:24.716 --> 00:05:29.316 on media and social media, but also because people will make mistakes. 00:05:29.356 --> 00:05:32.436 I think the head of the BBC News, when the election was announced, 00:05:32.696 --> 00:05:36.056 actually literally said that and said, we will make mistakes over the course 00:05:36.056 --> 00:05:38.636 of this campaign, and social media is no different. 00:05:38.816 --> 00:05:42.996 But I think TikTok's had a decent election in terms of not being huge amounts 00:05:42.996 --> 00:05:48.516 of cut through, of kind of egregiously false information, not being any kind 00:05:48.516 --> 00:05:51.036 of huge scandals of AI deepfakes, 00:05:51.136 --> 00:05:58.236 not been any kind of major cut through of foreign actors trying to sway our 00:05:58.236 --> 00:06:02.376 view, at least so far as of kind of 10 a.m. on election day. 00:06:02.436 --> 00:06:05.076 And as far as we can tell at this point, yeah. 00:06:05.196 --> 00:06:07.996 You mentioned Nigel Farage and Reform UK a couple of times. 00:06:08.036 --> 00:06:11.376 So I think we should dive into that because they have actually been arguably 00:06:11.376 --> 00:06:20.976 the most successful party. And him in particular has been particularly successful on TikTok. 00:06:21.316 --> 00:06:26.156 There was a bit of reporting from The Guardian on this, and he said that he's 00:06:26.156 --> 00:06:30.956 outperforming all other parties and candidates on TikTok, which is fascinating. 00:06:32.136 --> 00:06:36.596 Yeah, it's fascinating. And also it's fascinating because you did the correct 00:06:36.596 --> 00:06:38.616 thing, Charlotte, there, and that you kind of corrected yourself and that you 00:06:38.616 --> 00:06:39.896 said that's Nigel Farage and reform. 00:06:40.096 --> 00:06:44.736 But actually it's not. It's not reform necessarily. I mean, they do have a TikTok account. 00:06:44.876 --> 00:06:49.616 That's got, based on the Svenimore Harper data, around about an average view 00:06:49.616 --> 00:06:54.896 count of 100,000 per video, which is twice the amount of the Lid Dems and about 00:06:54.896 --> 00:06:57.996 three times the amount of the Green Party. 00:06:57.996 --> 00:07:01.656 But it is in comparison to nigel farage's 00:07:01.656 --> 00:07:04.396 personal account um which had kind of like an 00:07:04.396 --> 00:07:08.236 average view count of something like 820 000 views per 00:07:08.236 --> 00:07:12.676 video really pales into insignificance labor by the way there is around about 00:07:12.676 --> 00:07:19.796 400 000 the tories around about 450 odd thousand per per video so yes it's interesting 00:07:19.796 --> 00:07:23.696 nigel farage has been on tiktok a long time uh long before the election was 00:07:23.696 --> 00:07:27.876 called he's kind of built up there was the whole I'm a celebrity thing as well, 00:07:28.616 --> 00:07:32.916 yeah he's and that's the thing you have to bear in mind he is actually more 00:07:32.916 --> 00:07:37.396 than anything a celebrity right it fits that he went on that show because it's 00:07:37.396 --> 00:07:42.376 he's on there not necessarily as a politician campaigning for your vote he's on there as kind of. 00:07:43.277 --> 00:07:50.277 This weird quasi-media commentator, agitator, celebrity, just nige down the 00:07:50.277 --> 00:07:57.597 pub, who is kind of the position that he's held, I suppose, in politics for decades now. 00:07:57.917 --> 00:08:03.917 But I think that kind of explains in part why he is doing quite so well on TikTok. 00:08:04.017 --> 00:08:08.597 Also, actually, it is fascinating for someone who is kind of relatively old, 00:08:08.737 --> 00:08:18.617 relatively kind of like Shires, sort of, you know, old-fashioned. 00:08:19.917 --> 00:08:24.097 His TikTok account is quite slick, actually. This is what I wanted to get to. 00:08:24.177 --> 00:08:27.857 I was having a look through it, knowing that we were going to have this conversation. 00:08:29.117 --> 00:08:34.177 And I have to say, forget the politics of it, I was rather impressed because 00:08:34.177 --> 00:08:38.517 it jumped from him Him at a sort of Army, 00:08:38.717 --> 00:08:44.257 Armed Forces Day event, him watching England equalising the 95th minute in the 00:08:44.257 --> 00:08:49.777 pub, to him urging people this morning to go out and vote in a very slick, 00:08:50.017 --> 00:08:54.637 sort of very standard with subtitles video, captions video. 00:08:55.057 --> 00:09:00.497 And then also dealing with this controversy around someone that was meant to 00:09:00.497 --> 00:09:03.777 be part of Reform UK who made racist comments about the prime minister. 00:09:03.777 --> 00:09:06.917 He has used it in the 00:09:06.917 --> 00:09:12.397 most natural way you know from the serious to the silly which is how most people 00:09:12.397 --> 00:09:17.057 use tiktok right yeah well and it's you know authenticity with social media 00:09:17.057 --> 00:09:20.817 messaging is always the key thing and you know that's been the case with youtube 00:09:20.817 --> 00:09:23.497 particularly the case with tiktok in part because of the way that the medium 00:09:23.497 --> 00:09:26.577 works is you are up close and personal 00:09:26.837 --> 00:09:30.197 full screen video very close in 00:09:30.197 --> 00:09:33.917 terms of how it's cropped and shot and i think that that 00:09:33.917 --> 00:09:36.697 is kind of what nigel farage is as a 00:09:36.697 --> 00:09:43.177 retail politician right he he is the bloke that you can kind of chat to who 00:09:43.177 --> 00:09:47.797 wears his heart on his sleeve says often for many people ridiculous things but 00:09:47.797 --> 00:09:54.857 like you you kind of believe in some way that he actually trusts what he says and that he has kind 00:09:54.977 --> 00:09:57.597 of an understanding of it. 00:09:57.917 --> 00:10:02.717 Whenever you think about people being vox popped about why they like Nigel Farage, 00:10:02.837 --> 00:10:04.717 it's because he's different to other politicians. 00:10:04.837 --> 00:10:08.477 He says what he means. He lays it out relatively clearly. 00:10:08.757 --> 00:10:11.637 And so I think that is kind of a natural fit for him. 00:10:11.677 --> 00:10:16.577 But it is interesting that alongside the kind of the way that he interacts, 00:10:16.957 --> 00:10:20.237 because I mean, like I've covered him in. 00:10:21.037 --> 00:10:26.717 I don't remember which election, one election for BuzzFeed, remind me of the 2015 one that might, 00:10:27.461 --> 00:10:31.841 timeline kind of adds up. I went to Hartlepool and to Gateshead and followed 00:10:31.841 --> 00:10:32.761 him around a couple of times. 00:10:32.841 --> 00:10:39.961 And, um, it was really interesting to see quite like how magnetic his personality is in person. 00:10:40.081 --> 00:10:47.401 And, um, you know, I think that TikTok allows you to replicate that in some way online, 00:10:47.621 --> 00:10:52.041 but it's kind of, it's interesting that he's managed or whoever is doing his 00:10:52.041 --> 00:10:57.681 social media has managed to kind of capture that offline magnetism that he has 00:10:57.681 --> 00:11:04.901 by kind of getting it close to the in-person Nigel Farage experience that you get offline as well. 00:11:05.021 --> 00:11:08.361 And let's be blunt about it, however hard they try, 00:11:08.821 --> 00:11:13.981 Rishi Sunak and Sakhir Starmer in particular, and Sir Davey as well, 00:11:13.981 --> 00:11:15.921 the leader of the Liberal Democrats, to a certain extent, 00:11:16.101 --> 00:11:21.301 when they put this stuff on social media, it does look a bit staid and stiff 00:11:21.301 --> 00:11:24.501 because that's sort of who they are in real life, right? 00:11:25.541 --> 00:11:32.001 Particularly Sonek and Sakir. Whereas Farage isn't that, like him or loathe him. 00:11:32.121 --> 00:11:36.961 And so he's been able to use the platform to move on from that. 00:11:37.001 --> 00:11:40.461 What's impressive is someone, a politician like him, has embraced it. 00:11:40.521 --> 00:11:44.181 For it to work, the politician themselves has to embrace it, right? 00:11:44.181 --> 00:11:47.401 Yeah which i think is why davy has 00:11:47.401 --> 00:11:50.241 kind of had a transformative election as 00:11:50.241 --> 00:11:54.161 well is that he's like he's embraced the fact that he's 00:11:54.161 --> 00:11:57.281 not going to be prime minister although he may be leader of 00:11:57.281 --> 00:12:00.221 the opposition we don't know depending on how this shakes he did once tell me 00:12:00.221 --> 00:12:04.961 he wanted to be prime minister interview for the house magazine uh when he was 00:12:04.961 --> 00:12:08.921 running for the leadership of the party for the first time uh joe swinson who 00:12:08.921 --> 00:12:13.501 was running had told me she wanted to be prime minister and so i I asked him 00:12:13.501 --> 00:12:15.401 the same question. He said, yeah, I'm going to be the prime minister. 00:12:15.681 --> 00:12:18.921 I mean, everybody wants to be the prime minister. I definitely don't. 00:12:18.921 --> 00:12:20.921 For the record, I definitely don't want to be the prime minister. 00:12:21.581 --> 00:12:24.701 Yeah, actually, that's true. There's too much hassle involved with it. 00:12:24.741 --> 00:12:28.861 Seems like a lot of effort. Yeah, but I think what's interesting is that it's... 00:12:31.242 --> 00:12:36.182 So Davey and Nigel Farage have the ability to kind of let loose those shackles 00:12:36.182 --> 00:12:40.602 because they know that actually it's not going to be them who has to then stand 00:12:40.602 --> 00:12:46.782 up to Vladimir Putin or whoever or go to a kind of summit with the king and act prim and proper. 00:12:47.082 --> 00:12:49.762 And so I think they've been able to take advantage of that. that 00:12:49.762 --> 00:12:52.822 what's interesting is that labor's kind of approach to tiktok 00:12:52.822 --> 00:12:55.922 has worked decently in terms of like if 00:12:55.922 --> 00:12:58.662 we if we discount the fact that actually probably 00:12:58.662 --> 00:13:01.542 tiktok doesn't matter all that much to the final result of 00:13:01.542 --> 00:13:04.602 the election and we instead think about the media perception 00:13:04.602 --> 00:13:10.942 of this of there is a tiktok based war going on for who can get supremacy in 00:13:10.942 --> 00:13:16.022 the run-up to the election yeah then labor with nigel farage accepted has definitely 00:13:16.022 --> 00:13:20.042 won out of those two main parties and And that's because while they do have 00:13:20.042 --> 00:13:22.682 the kind of Keir Starmer very staid stuff. 00:13:22.922 --> 00:13:28.662 The same way that Rishi Sunak is pretty wooden in terms of his social media presence on TikTok, 00:13:28.802 --> 00:13:34.082 they have had the other aspect of it, which is outside of Keir Starmer, 00:13:34.182 --> 00:13:39.982 they've been putting out these memes, which my understanding is kind of in part 00:13:39.982 --> 00:13:47.482 the result of Abby Tomlinson, who many of us will remember was kind of the head of the Millie fandom. 00:13:47.482 --> 00:13:51.122 Back in 2015 explain that 00:13:51.122 --> 00:13:54.002 in 30 seconds to my american listeners okay so 00:13:54.002 --> 00:13:56.862 so ed milliband was the labor leader in the 00:13:56.862 --> 00:13:59.622 2015 general election um he was 00:13:59.622 --> 00:14:02.502 he's very geeky he's a little bit like a wallace and gromit character come to 00:14:02.502 --> 00:14:05.122 life um but there was now you're gonna 00:14:05.122 --> 00:14:07.882 have to explain what it's important they might know 00:14:07.882 --> 00:14:10.482 what wallace and gromit is surely um that's that's in 00:14:10.482 --> 00:14:13.182 their theme parks and things like that uh if not have a 00:14:13.182 --> 00:14:19.122 google of it but basically um there was this kind of odd infatuation this weird 00:14:19.122 --> 00:14:25.742 memetic movement in 2015 of actually ed miller band who was kind of like the 00:14:25.742 --> 00:14:30.502 the geek in high school being seen as actually kind of like a bit of a lovable. 00:14:31.142 --> 00:14:34.222 Individual which was spearheaded by this person called abby tomlinson who i 00:14:34.222 --> 00:14:37.842 think at the time was like 16 or something like that and she managed to kind 00:14:37.842 --> 00:14:41.922 of make this an early meme on twitter of like the Miller Phantom. 00:14:42.022 --> 00:14:48.382 It's kind of like a less polished, less intelligible version of the I've got 00:14:48.382 --> 00:14:51.562 a crush on Obama meme in the sense of like... 00:14:51.562 --> 00:14:57.702 And not to be too rude, but significantly less understandable than having a crush on Barack Obama. 00:14:58.002 --> 00:15:01.522 Yeah, that's the less intelligible bit. Ed Miliband, although he seems like 00:15:01.522 --> 00:15:06.762 a very nice man, he is not even the most attractive Miliband brother. 00:15:06.942 --> 00:15:13.562 People may know David Miliband had a sojourn in the United States and he himself is... 00:15:14.660 --> 00:15:17.460 Not hugely photogenic i mean i'm aware that i'm saying this is someone who 00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:20.320 spends their lives on on podcasts i have a face for 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.540 radio and podcast but um you know 00:15:23.540 --> 00:15:26.580 david milliband who is the more attractive brother is best 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:30.020 known for gurning holding a banana um ed 00:15:30.020 --> 00:15:33.000 is best known for gunning whilst eating a bacon sandwich anyway thank you 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.820 for that diversion but yes i'm just thinking actually 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:38.800 as you're talking about this you have emphasized that 00:15:38.800 --> 00:15:41.560 i mean it didn't help but the sort of 00:15:41.560 --> 00:15:45.440 importance of authenticity and organic growth on 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:50.120 social media because you can't really force it you 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:56.780 can't and i don't think i mean i think when you look at some of the conservative 00:15:56.780 --> 00:16:02.300 content it feels a bit forced i'm sure labor feels the same look to a certain 00:16:02.300 --> 00:16:06.120 extent any politician doing it is going to feel forced right because they're 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.840 trying to piggyback on memes that already exist. 00:16:09.020 --> 00:16:12.140 They're trying to look normal. They're trying to look quote unquote down with the kids. 00:16:12.260 --> 00:16:17.160 You know, it is like that famous hello, hello, fellow kids or fellow teenagers 00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:19.380 meme, isn't it? When they do these things. 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:24.900 But Farage, despite having largely an older target. 00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:31.840 Base and, you know, voter base, it does seem like he's managed to cross that. 00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:37.540 And of course, this Guardian piece points out that he is trying to get younger voters as well. 00:16:38.420 --> 00:16:41.600 Yeah, I think that's what's really interesting is, and you know, 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.880 gosh, I mean, this current election hasn't even happened, and we can kind of cast our minds forward. 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:53.060 But if, as we think may happen, Labour might reduce the voting age to 16, 00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:57.080 that suddenly puts in play, you know, an extra two years worth of individuals. 00:16:57.640 --> 00:17:02.320 What's really fascinating is if Nigel Farage has kind of got a a little bit 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:07.740 of a sense of like his claws into um that younger generation even if it's not 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:11.640 necessarily that they believe in what he says although there is a, 00:17:12.300 --> 00:17:19.620 kind of you know you speak to teachers a kind of concerning um group of of young 00:17:19.620 --> 00:17:23.360 people who are either kind of andrew tate pilled or kind of nigel farage pilled 00:17:23.360 --> 00:17:26.260 like they have those kind of they 00:17:26.260 --> 00:17:31.400 they have beliefs that have similar sensibilities to both those people, 00:17:31.540 --> 00:17:37.780 then, you know, potentially there is a kind of brand loyalty almost to Nigel 00:17:37.780 --> 00:17:40.260 Farage at that point, which could be interesting because it means that then 00:17:40.260 --> 00:17:45.880 he can be heard more by those individuals who then could, 00:17:46.100 --> 00:17:52.080 in the next election, be able to vote and have five years of aligning with him, 00:17:52.180 --> 00:17:55.600 which could, you know, reshape stuff on that side. But yeah, 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:56.580 you're right in terms of... 00:17:58.672 --> 00:18:03.532 It brings him to a different generation than he is maybe used to. 00:18:03.692 --> 00:18:04.892 And I think that he will be seeing 00:18:04.892 --> 00:18:08.292 that as a good thing because obviously they're the voters of tomorrow. 00:18:10.932 --> 00:18:13.652 Interestingly, Carla Denya, who's the leader of the Green Party, 00:18:13.952 --> 00:18:18.112 has not performed particularly well on TikTok. 00:18:18.232 --> 00:18:23.052 And you might have thought she, you know, that kind of sensibility. 00:18:23.132 --> 00:18:28.132 Look, this is all very broad brush and crude, isn't it? Oh, young people like the nice lefty greens. 00:18:29.112 --> 00:18:33.012 But you might have thought that on a platform like TikTok, someone like Carla 00:18:33.012 --> 00:18:34.792 Denier would perform better than she has. 00:18:35.372 --> 00:18:40.752 Yeah. I mean, I think the problem that we have is there is also an additional 00:18:40.752 --> 00:18:45.172 wrinkle in here, which is often highlighted by the Reuters Institute Digital News Report. 00:18:45.392 --> 00:18:49.832 So the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at Oxford University puts 00:18:49.832 --> 00:18:54.432 out a report every year called the Digital News Report, which surveys 20-odd, 00:18:54.512 --> 00:18:57.852 30-odd, 40-odd thousand people across multiple different countries. 00:18:57.852 --> 00:19:01.372 On the edition it's a fantastic piece of work over here exactly and 00:19:01.372 --> 00:19:04.232 one of the things that they've seen over the last few years is a 00:19:04.232 --> 00:19:09.712 growing sense of news avoidance which is young people kind of just getting sick 00:19:09.712 --> 00:19:14.632 frankly of everything happening in the world and going you know what like i 00:19:14.632 --> 00:19:19.852 just want to tune out and i think um while that is certainly not the case for 00:19:19.852 --> 00:19:23.372 everybody i think the latest data i was looking at this yesterday actually it's something 00:19:23.452 --> 00:19:28.332 like four in 10 people engage in some sort of news avoidance around the world. 00:19:28.532 --> 00:19:34.452 And it's gone up multiple years in a row. If you look at the pandemic war cost 00:19:34.452 --> 00:19:38.692 of living crisis, we are sick of hearing about it because we are sick of living 00:19:38.692 --> 00:19:41.372 through it. And I think that that's part of the issue. 00:19:41.412 --> 00:19:48.772 And again, this is stereotyping. This is kind of being a bit or kind of obtuse, but like, you know, the. 00:19:49.697 --> 00:19:53.437 The Green Party hold their beliefs very, very sincerely. And I think that holding 00:19:53.437 --> 00:19:58.017 their beliefs very, very sincerely and talking about the risks of climate change, 00:19:58.177 --> 00:20:01.377 talking about the fact that things aren't going well, talking about kind of 00:20:01.377 --> 00:20:07.277 existential doom almost, probably is something that a lot of people, 00:20:07.397 --> 00:20:11.577 not just young people, but a lot of people don't necessarily want to hear. 00:20:11.737 --> 00:20:16.457 And when you think about TikTok, you're not just competing against fellow politicians on this space. 00:20:16.537 --> 00:20:19.677 You're competing against influencers. You're competing against cooking videos. my 00:20:19.677 --> 00:20:25.357 girlfriend has got an obsession now with um the crazy starbucks orders that 00:20:25.357 --> 00:20:29.657 people in the u.s are required to make which includes like 17 shots of syrup 00:20:29.657 --> 00:20:33.577 and three spoonfuls of sugar before you even get into anything else so like 00:20:33.577 --> 00:20:37.497 nigel farage whether you like him or loathe him. 00:20:38.557 --> 00:20:41.257 He is an engaging personality and if 00:20:41.257 --> 00:20:44.057 you see him on your tiktok feed you are more likely to stop on 00:20:44.057 --> 00:20:47.497 him than you are Carla Denya who you know probably isn't 00:20:47.497 --> 00:20:50.657 being the most engaging personality on that 00:20:50.657 --> 00:20:54.197 platform it's interesting all the stuff you said I kind of 00:20:54.197 --> 00:20:59.677 you know I'm minded to agree with you on much of it but it does fascinate me 00:20:59.677 --> 00:21:05.337 that that Farage on TikTok seems to also come on Farage on mainstream media 00:21:05.337 --> 00:21:10.917 right there hasn't been a breakout staff from the election onto TikTok now Now, 00:21:10.957 --> 00:21:12.737 I've seen the Conservative MP, Dr. 00:21:12.777 --> 00:21:17.477 Luke Evans, has really dedicated time to TikTok. 00:21:17.737 --> 00:21:22.257 I don't know how that will work for him. Zahra Sultana, the Labour candidate 00:21:22.257 --> 00:21:27.317 now, she may well be returned as an MP, again, has spent years building up TikTok. 00:21:27.617 --> 00:21:32.497 But Farage's success on the platform, and I don't only want to talk about him, 00:21:32.537 --> 00:21:38.517 but success on the platform per se seems to come from success on mainstream 00:21:38.517 --> 00:21:39.957 platforms when you're a politician. 00:21:39.957 --> 00:21:45.817 It's not the same in the creator economy, but for political figures, 00:21:45.997 --> 00:21:50.077 success on social media often seems to come from success on mainstream media 00:21:50.077 --> 00:21:55.157 instead of success on social media getting them onto the talk shows. Yeah, and I think…. 00:21:57.025 --> 00:21:59.665 There's a couple of interesting things to unpack here, which is that it's not 00:21:59.665 --> 00:22:02.405 just a one-way thing, right? It's a circle. 00:22:02.665 --> 00:22:08.025 I mean, if we cast our minds back a few years when TikTok was starting to become 00:22:08.025 --> 00:22:12.485 popular, there was this idea that Sarah Cooper, the American comedian who did 00:22:12.485 --> 00:22:15.125 a lot of political skits, was kind of the face of TikTok. 00:22:15.305 --> 00:22:18.365 And actually on TikTok, she wasn't that popular. But the fact was, 00:22:18.465 --> 00:22:21.965 people who were early adopters of TikTok downloaded her videos, 00:22:22.105 --> 00:22:26.485 put them onto other social media, namely Twitter, and said, look at this. 00:22:26.685 --> 00:22:27.925 And she became hugely popular. 00:22:28.125 --> 00:22:32.185 And actually, she kind of became the face of TikTok for people who weren't on 00:22:32.185 --> 00:22:35.165 TikTok, but wanted to think they did understand TikTok. 00:22:35.405 --> 00:22:43.345 So I think, you know, in some ways, there's no doubt that Nigel Farage has the most views on TikTok. 00:22:43.485 --> 00:22:48.625 But I also think there is an element of us saying, trying to translate what's 00:22:48.625 --> 00:22:52.425 happening on TikTok for mainstream media and for a mainstream audience saying, 00:22:52.545 --> 00:22:55.345 this is the person who's the face of TikTok, when you're right, 00:22:55.405 --> 00:22:56.685 not necessarily the case. 00:22:56.705 --> 00:22:59.645 800,000 views per video is decent. 00:23:00.065 --> 00:23:04.145 It's okay. Yeah. Well, I would want, I would love that if I got 800,000 views per video on TikTok. 00:23:04.445 --> 00:23:09.165 But like for a person of his standing, not as huge as you would think it is. 00:23:09.285 --> 00:23:15.445 But you're right in that the sense of when you are trying to sell something 00:23:15.445 --> 00:23:19.305 that people don't necessarily want to hear, which is politics on this platform, 00:23:19.525 --> 00:23:22.865 I think that you do need to have that kind of mainstream stream audience 00:23:22.865 --> 00:23:26.425 and facial recognition at the 00:23:26.425 --> 00:23:29.705 start in order to actually cut through and become popular with 00:23:29.705 --> 00:23:32.765 a group of people who probably aren't wanting to 00:23:32.765 --> 00:23:36.025 engage with that type of content on this platform necessarily and that's why 00:23:36.025 --> 00:23:40.305 i think that yeah you're right there is that kind of link between offline popularity 00:23:40.305 --> 00:23:45.105 and online popularity in this instance we should also talk about our favorite 00:23:45.105 --> 00:23:51.345 fake mp on tiktok you're talking about rosie holt here i'm certainly talking about rosie Yeah, 00:23:51.525 --> 00:23:53.585 again, this is, I think, a Sarah Cooper thing. 00:23:54.307 --> 00:24:00.387 In in some ways i mean rosie holt is popular on tick tock but like the act is 00:24:00.387 --> 00:24:05.967 there's also is it is his name i can't remember the other one as well there's 00:24:05.967 --> 00:24:07.287 like two of them that do these, 00:24:07.907 --> 00:24:11.047 fake skits of they recut 00:24:11.047 --> 00:24:15.027 interviews with politicians and essentially superimpose 00:24:15.027 --> 00:24:18.127 themselves onto it which well there's 00:24:18.127 --> 00:24:20.987 a room next door as well yeah and there's and there's one 00:24:20.987 --> 00:24:24.767 where yeah there's there's one where again i can't do anton deck saturday night 00:24:24.767 --> 00:24:29.227 takeaway reference because again that's that will alienate our american listeners 00:24:29.227 --> 00:24:33.507 but essentially there's a there's a premise also that either these people are 00:24:33.507 --> 00:24:36.827 taking part in an actual live tv interview and they kind of replace the politician 00:24:36.827 --> 00:24:39.087 that is being interviewed and say inane things or. 00:24:39.747 --> 00:24:42.667 If there's been a particular car crash interview with a politician they 00:24:42.667 --> 00:24:45.607 will pretend to be a special advisor who is listening in a second room 00:24:45.607 --> 00:24:48.487 feeding lines to the 00:24:48.487 --> 00:24:51.327 mp or kind of trying to coach them through an interview and it 00:24:51.327 --> 00:24:54.727 getting kind of silly and silly trying to describe tiktok 00:24:54.727 --> 00:24:57.647 comedy um on a podcast i realize it makes 00:24:57.647 --> 00:25:00.627 this you've done it beautifully yeah makes it even less funny 00:25:00.627 --> 00:25:03.547 it's always good when you explain jokes i think yeah it's fantastic it always 00:25:03.547 --> 00:25:07.427 works uh and but the issues i those videos 00:25:07.427 --> 00:25:10.227 always really interesting the first time that you see them but then i guess they 00:25:10.227 --> 00:25:13.047 kind of get the joke much of a muchness yeah 00:25:13.047 --> 00:25:16.007 so she is again i think a kind of 00:25:16.007 --> 00:25:19.467 sarah cooper syndrome thing in that like i 00:25:19.467 --> 00:25:22.327 mean she is popular on tiktok i won't deny that 00:25:22.327 --> 00:25:25.287 but like i don't think she is as popular 00:25:25.287 --> 00:25:28.707 as we like i think we i think we christen these these social media communities 00:25:28.707 --> 00:25:32.387 actually literally before we started what we started recording here i was looking 00:25:32.387 --> 00:25:36.867 on um twitter and there was a video of rosie holt interviewing jonathan pie 00:25:36.867 --> 00:25:42.447 who is a i don't quite understand that's a bit too that's a bit too meta no 00:25:42.447 --> 00:25:44.967 can't deal with that don't I understand how Jonathan Paisel exists. 00:25:45.067 --> 00:25:49.687 I interviewed him once for Newsweek and he was a word that I will not even say 00:25:49.687 --> 00:25:52.227 on a podcast in terms of his interest. Especially not this one. 00:25:52.307 --> 00:25:55.747 This is a fan show, Chris. Yes, exactly. But the point is that. 00:25:56.459 --> 00:26:04.559 We attach these names to political humour and kind of think that they constantly 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:06.699 exist and they do kind of just linger on. 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:12.179 But again, whether or not actually, like, I don't know if he walked down the 00:26:12.179 --> 00:26:19.099 street in the UK and asked people to pick out Jonathan Pye or Rosie Holt from a line-up, 00:26:19.199 --> 00:26:21.859 whether they would necessarily know those people. 00:26:21.939 --> 00:26:25.259 I think that they're really interesting for those of 00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:28.039 us who are kind of switching on to the social media aspect those of us who are switching on 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:31.079 to the political aspect and and those of us who kind of like those 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:41.379 in jokes when we wake up on friday morning and we go to sleep i might do the 00:26:41.379 --> 00:26:47.879 sort of go to sleep at 10 30 wake up at 1 30 shift yeah um when we wake up at 00:26:47.879 --> 00:26:50.859 some point on friday morning or when normal people wake up on Friday morning. 00:26:52.499 --> 00:26:57.419 Will anything that's happened on TikTok have made any difference to the results 00:26:57.419 --> 00:26:58.539 that are being discussed? 00:27:00.114 --> 00:27:03.394 No, not directly. Okay. 00:27:03.654 --> 00:27:09.414 It could, if, and we don't know, because bearing in mind Nigel Farage has tried, 00:27:09.454 --> 00:27:13.054 I think, seven times to get a seat in Parliament, and he has failed seven times 00:27:13.054 --> 00:27:14.154 up to the point that we're talking. 00:27:15.394 --> 00:27:21.314 If Nigel Farage gets in, I think that there is an argument to be made that TikTok 00:27:21.314 --> 00:27:23.414 was one contributory factor. 00:27:23.554 --> 00:27:26.374 And this is the thing, we cast this as the TikTok election, but we kind of, 00:27:26.374 --> 00:27:27.734 we're oversimplifying. 00:27:28.114 --> 00:27:33.114 This is an election which- In the media, we're oversimplified. Shocking. How dare you? 00:27:33.374 --> 00:27:38.234 Yeah. This is an election where lots of factors are taking part in what the 00:27:38.234 --> 00:27:39.594 decision we make happens. 00:27:39.754 --> 00:27:43.854 That wasn't a sentence, but you kind of get what I mean. You got the general gist. 00:27:44.234 --> 00:27:47.654 The words weren't in the right order, but anyway. They were the right words. Yeah. 00:27:49.914 --> 00:27:52.834 Whereas we think of this as the sole reason. 00:27:52.874 --> 00:27:56.494 I do think that Nigel Farage 00:27:56.494 --> 00:28:01.454 being on TikTok tiktok helps him continue to 00:28:01.454 --> 00:28:04.194 exist and continue to be 00:28:04.194 --> 00:28:07.094 in the minds of people in a way that he wouldn't 00:28:07.094 --> 00:28:10.134 be if he weren't on tiktok i also think him 00:28:10.134 --> 00:28:15.294 being on tiktok and doing well and getting those numbers gets 00:28:15.294 --> 00:28:17.894 him a seat and a 00:28:17.894 --> 00:28:22.574 platform through traditional media that he wouldn't have if he weren't on tiktok 00:28:22.574 --> 00:28:27.054 doing those numbers because a it gives us a reason to talk about him and b it 00:28:27.054 --> 00:28:31.034 gives him justification to go to the bbc and say i am way more popular than 00:28:31.034 --> 00:28:32.474 these other platforms at these 00:28:32.474 --> 00:28:36.654 other parties on these platforms and so you should platform me on yours, 00:28:37.894 --> 00:28:43.114 um but do i think that people are encountering nigel farage on tiktok saying 00:28:43.114 --> 00:28:47.374 i like the sound of that marching down to the ballot box and clagged and putting 00:28:47.374 --> 00:28:49.714 a cross against his name him. 00:28:50.174 --> 00:28:54.434 Not really. And I think... Or indeed other Reform UK candidates. 00:28:54.714 --> 00:28:56.394 Yeah. And I think it's because. 00:28:58.719 --> 00:29:07.999 I think it's because it's overly reductive to think that people make their minds up based on that. 00:29:08.219 --> 00:29:13.619 I think, you know… Let's talk about the two main parties, because I should note, 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:18.479 you know, Dr Stephanie Luke wrote a piece of analysis for UK in a Changing Europe 00:29:18.479 --> 00:29:23.279 called The First TikTok Election, where she analyzes many of the same questions that we're discussing. 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.819 And she noted that once, it was only after Rishi Sunak announced there would 00:29:27.819 --> 00:29:32.219 be a general election, that Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats 00:29:32.219 --> 00:29:35.159 opened their TikTok accounts. 00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:39.639 The parties were not building up this, even though we knew there was going to 00:29:39.639 --> 00:29:40.539 be an election this year. 00:29:40.639 --> 00:29:47.399 The mainstream parties hadn't built up their TikTok following in anticipation of this. 00:29:47.399 --> 00:29:50.439 Yeah but i think i think that they joined tiktok 00:29:50.439 --> 00:29:53.259 not necessarily because they saw it as a massive vote with 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:55.899 it but because they needed to be on it because if they weren't then 00:29:55.899 --> 00:29:58.759 people would be saying why are you not on tiktok i don't deny 00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:01.839 that they're not putting effort into this stuff because they are right and 00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.939 you can see that from the production values you can see that from the quick reaction on 00:30:04.939 --> 00:30:07.939 particularly the labor yeah the quick reaction stuff 00:30:07.939 --> 00:30:10.979 has been quite impressive it's not all just 00:30:10.979 --> 00:30:14.039 stayed set piece videos is 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:16.939 it yeah and i think that shows a freedom and a 00:30:16.939 --> 00:30:22.539 kind of digital social media literacy with the likes of abby thompson that we 00:30:22.539 --> 00:30:27.039 haven't had before i think i think the maybe the difference this time around 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:31.899 is that you have because of kind of just demographic changes and and kind of 00:30:31.899 --> 00:30:35.899 time passing you have people who are kind of meme native. 00:30:36.419 --> 00:30:46.299 Doing this stuff whereas before it was like it was um like the the deliberately 00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:53.199 bad bad Tory party graphics that were popular maybe four or five years ago. 00:30:53.999 --> 00:30:56.419 That, I mean, I wrote about for the New States and things like that. 00:30:56.479 --> 00:30:59.339 They were deliberately bad to try and get people to talk about them on social 00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:03.799 media in a way of kind of farming engagement in a bad way, which was like a 00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:07.299 very cynical, jaded, middle-aged, 00:31:07.959 --> 00:31:11.619 in a suit person's approach to it, whereas this is literal. 00:31:12.179 --> 00:31:16.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, so despite all of this and our very interesting 00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.339 conversation, it's not going to make any difference. Cool, glad we discussed it. 00:31:20.619 --> 00:31:24.099 Well done for listening for half an hour. Thank you so much, everyone. No. 00:31:25.609 --> 00:31:28.709 I'm not convinced that, at least in the medium term, it's not going to make 00:31:28.709 --> 00:31:30.389 a difference, by the way. I understand what you mean. 00:31:30.969 --> 00:31:34.589 There's various circumstances that probably mean that the odd TikTok video can't 00:31:34.589 --> 00:31:36.429 shift the dynamics of this election. 00:31:36.829 --> 00:31:41.489 But I think this may be something we have to discuss moving forward. 00:31:41.549 --> 00:31:43.529 So I will haul you on once again. 00:31:43.629 --> 00:31:45.989 Where can people keep up with you? Because I suspect you're going to have to 00:31:45.989 --> 00:31:47.169 write about this a bit more as well. 00:31:47.369 --> 00:31:50.429 Yeah, on X slash Twitter is probably 00:31:50.429 --> 00:31:54.729 the best place because I am on TikTok normally, but not very good at it. 00:31:55.889 --> 00:31:59.309 Myself in terms of posting so on x twitter 00:31:59.309 --> 00:32:03.169 still refuse to call x by itself at stokel or 00:32:03.169 --> 00:32:08.909 you can just google me and you'll find all of my stories and books yeah lots 00:32:08.909 --> 00:32:14.229 of books tick you keep writing books chris i do the next one is on the way and 00:32:14.229 --> 00:32:18.689 also going to do phd which is fun don't like to be bored you don't like to be 00:32:18.689 --> 00:32:21.029 bored which is why you keep coming back on this show and And I'm very grateful. 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:22.949 I'm so grateful to have you. 00:32:23.269 --> 00:32:25.689 I'm at Charlotte A. Henry across social media. 00:32:26.729 --> 00:32:32.529 And obviously head over to the edition dot net for all sorts of tech and media stuff. 00:32:32.689 --> 00:32:37.529 If you want to hear more about UK politics, I did the podcast House of Comments 00:32:37.529 --> 00:32:40.309 with my friend and co-conspirator Emma Bunnell. 00:32:40.469 --> 00:32:45.229 We'll definitely be doing some reaction stuff to this election on the politics side. 00:32:45.429 --> 00:32:49.429 And it's also another way for you to get the edition paid newsletter. 00:32:49.429 --> 00:32:52.829 If you head over to patreon.com slash House of Comments podcast, 00:32:53.169 --> 00:32:55.689 you get extra episodes of that podcast. 00:32:55.829 --> 00:33:00.729 You get my paid newsletter and you get Emma's paid newsletter for just a five or a month. 00:33:01.009 --> 00:33:05.609 Or you can head over to the edition.net and subscribe just to the edition directly 00:33:05.609 --> 00:33:08.509 there as well. And I will love you whichever way you do it. 00:33:09.109 --> 00:33:12.529 I hope you enjoy this different approach to podcasting I'm taking as well. 00:33:12.549 --> 00:33:16.009 We're trying to get more shows up during the week and I'll see you soon. 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:25.575 Music.