WEBVTT

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On the 18th of November, 1952,

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US Navy Lieutenant Royce

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Williams and his wingman were

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part of a combat air patrol

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above the Sea of Japan, when

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seven bogeys were seen, even

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though completely outclassed.

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The Americans climbed to 26,000

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feet, Williams pulled hard left

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and lined up on MiG no.

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4, he fired a short burst and

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the MiG went down, followed by

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Williams' wingman. Williams was

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now alone, and facing six

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MiG-15s.

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You're listening to the podcast,

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so there I was. It's how all

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great aviation tales begin.

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Welcome to episode 45, Fig. 45.

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That's a good caliber, too. It

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is a good caliber. And, uh,

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although I think the caliber was

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a little bigger, what's the

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title of this show? Four MiG

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kills, one fight? Yeah. Yes. I

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didn't ask what the caliber of

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the cannon was on that F9F

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Panther that Captain Williams

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was flying that day. Well, then,

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Lieutenant Williams. Fig, I

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don't know about you, and no

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disrespect to all of our other

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guests, but that has been not

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only the highlight of our

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podcast, it's one of the

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highlights of my life. Almost 98.

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Sharp as a tack. Took out four

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MiGs in a 1v7 fight.

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Possibly a fifth.

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And it could never be talked

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about. He kept it silent for 50,

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more than 50 years. Didn't even

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tell his wife or his children

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about it until it was

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declassified. Our gratefulness,

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our appreciation to Captain

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Williams for joining us, and I

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hope he will come back. It

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sounds like he may want to, so

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that was good.

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Well, he, his, his stories, uh,

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just, well, first of all, we, we

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spent a lot of time on the, on

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the MiG engagement, but his

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career spanned 37 years. And he

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flew, well, let's just say this.

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He, if it wasn't made, he didn't

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fly it. If it was a fighter.

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From World War II, uh, through

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Vietnam, if it, I mean, really.

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Uh, because he did an exchange

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with the Air Force, so he flew

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Air Force metal. Like I said, if,

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uh, you could list the jets you

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didn't fly, it'd probably be a

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shorter list. Right. That was,

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yeah, that was pretty much spot

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on. I, I was, I got half a page

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worth of airplane notes here. So,

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that was awesome. You know,

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Hellcat, Bearcat, Corsair,

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Panthers, F9F, Cougars, F86,

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F100, F4A4. And I'm sure, uh,

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did I say F100? Yeah, you did. I

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think I did. Yeah. Uh, but, and

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the, and then out of nowhere, he

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starts talking about, oh, being

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on fire in an F4, two engines.

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Uh, they had lost a bunch of

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them already and everybody had

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jumped out and he thought, well,

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this one's still flying. I'm

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gonna try to bring it back. And

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his backseat or jumped out. I'm

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out of here.

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But, uh, you know, he, uh, they,

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they were able to figure out

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what was going on with these

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planes because he brought one

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back. Probably saved some lives.

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I could be wrong. Saved some

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more lives. About crossing the

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pond. Oh my God.

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What a, what an amazing day.

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And the world's smallest...

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Let's just get out of the way

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and listen to what he has to say.

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On the tanker.

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Here he is without further ado,

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Captain Williams.

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Oh, and to the tanker crew who,

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uh, did that. Thanks a lot. We

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really appreciated that.

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I'm just kidding. No matter.

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There I was crossing the pond

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and you could see that I wasn't

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exactly fun.

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So there I was.

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Which is how all great aviation

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tales start. And this is going

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to be an amazing aviation tale.

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This is Fig. Welcome to the

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podcast. So there I was with my

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co-horse, Repeat. Where are you

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today, Repeat? I'm in an

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undisclosed location.

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Somewhere in the country. I

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don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm warm

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and dry, but, uh, where I am

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doesn't matter. Where we are is

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with a legend of naval aviation.

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Yes. And we are so honored. This

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is going to be the greatest of

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aviation tales. Captain Williams,

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United States Navy retired

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recipient of the Navy Cross.

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Captain Williams. Welcome, sir.

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Thank you so much. So Captain

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Williams, do you mind me stating

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your age, sir?

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No, I'm, uh, about one month

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away from 98. Beautiful.

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That is amazing. So amazed. So I

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read a little bit through your

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bio. You went in the Navy

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shortly after Pearl Harbor, was

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it?

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I first joined the Army. I was

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16. But when I turned 17, I was

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eligible for the V5 aviation

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cadet program in the Navy. And I

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made the switch. Nice.

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That is awesome. So how did you

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become interested in aviation,

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sir?

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Well, I first flew when I was

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four and, uh, barnstormers would

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come through the area. My

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brother and I would run out to

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greet them. Uh, a friend of mine

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became a barnstormer. And for

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the sake of flying, I'd go with

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him to county fairs, sell

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tickets, wipe the airplane down,

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enjoy the aerobatic

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demonstration, and, uh, at least

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get to fly both ways with me.

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Wow. That's pretty awesome.

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That's very cool. Do you

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remember what kind of airplane

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was it? Yes. Uh, travel air.

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Okay. Travel air. Nice. Nice.

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You became eligible to join the

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air cadet program. Can you walk

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us through what that

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commissioning source was like?

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Did you have to go to boot camp

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and then OCS? How did that work

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in those days?

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Yes. I came into the Navy as a

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selectee for aviation, but I

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went to boot camp and following

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that to a squadron at Corpus

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Christi waiting space around the

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end of 1943. It happened and I

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switched into a cadet program

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and started in the various

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schools that, uh, encompassed.

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Okay.

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Oh, that's amazing. Captain

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Williams, what aircraft did you

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train in initially? Uh, through

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your... An M3. M3. Okay. And

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then when you got to the fleet,

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what year was it that you

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actually got to a fleet squadron?

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76, 45, uh, 45. Late 45.

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So all the action was over.

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Yes. Yes.

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All that training and nothing to

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do with it, right, sir? Can't

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blame me. That's probably good.

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That's probably a good thing.

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There were an awful lot of

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casualties in aviation training,

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especially the Army Air Force

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lost an awful lot of their

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cadets. Uh, not so bad in the

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Navy. I lost a few friends, but,

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uh, basically it went as

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scheduled.

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Yeah, unfortunately that, that

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hasn't changed a whole lot. We

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continue to, uh, uh, to lose

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people in training. Just true.

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So you got to your first fleet

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squadron at the end of 1945. Did

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you stay on active duty in the

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Navy or were you, did you go

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into the reserves?

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No, I was a reserve, but I was

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selected for rigging the Navy

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and I remained in it for 37

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years. All right.

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Can't stick with anything. Can

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you, sir? Couldn't even do the

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full 40.

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Wow. They kicked me out.

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Oh, there you go. Right. What

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was the training like both to

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get your wings and then

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afterward? I imagine it was,

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well, let me, let me just not

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imagine anything.

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This is before simulator. You

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didn't have a simulator to sit

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in and fly before you got in the

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airplane, right? They pretty

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much handed you an ATOPS manual

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and said, go, go get it.

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Basically, he was just showing

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me how to start.

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Oh, my gosh. They'd get you in

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the cockpit. Went to a few

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interesting items like stick and

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throttle. Tell you how to start

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it. Good luck. There's an

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attitude indicator, a slip

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indicator to keep the ball in

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the center. Sure. Sure. And a

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great view. We'll just look

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around.

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Keep the blue side up and step

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on the ball, right? Right. Yes.

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Sure. Before we get into the

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bigger story that we first read

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about you, I want to ask, do you

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have any memories? What was the

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funniest thing you saw either in

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boot camp or officer candidate

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school or in Navy flight

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training or for that matter, at

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any time in your Navy career?

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Might have been funny. Might

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have been funny to some people,

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but it was serious. I came out

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late for a flight in a stearman.

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The instructor was ready to go,

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so I jumped in, and away we went.

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Wow. So, the next thing he did,

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he got up to a couple of

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thousand feet, and he did a slow

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roll. I hadn't fastened my

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parachute, and I hadn't buckled

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it in, so I was hanging on to

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anything I could grab. Oh, dear

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God. Stay below.

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While you were in this slow roll,

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you were about to fall out of

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the cockpit. Yes, yes. No canopy

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to stop me. No. And you weren't

 00:10:14.729 --> 10:16.019
even strapped into the parachute.

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That is terrifying.

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Terrifying. Yeah. That's right

 00:10:20.418 --> 10:21.798
up there. The most terrifying

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stories we've heard.

 00:10:25.398 --> 10:26.758
That's terrifying.

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That's probably one of many.

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Oh, my goodness. Well, if it

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gets worse than that, I don't

 00:10:33.624 --> 10:34.524
even want to know about it,

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because now my palms are

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sweating just thinking about

 00:10:37.184 --> 10:38.484
that. I have nightmares about

 00:10:38.484 --> 10:38.894
things like that.

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That's like the nightmare

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showing up to school naked? No.

 00:10:41.584 --> 10:42.924
Going flying without strapping

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in. Yeah.

 00:10:46.333 --> 10:48.103
In an open cockpit, upside down.

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But, well, I guess let's get

 00:10:53.203 --> 10:55.123
into it. The fact is, you did

 00:10:55.123 --> 10:57.063
find yourself in a far more

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terrifying situation. Hey, wait.

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Before you go there, Captain

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Williams, so your first flight,

 00:11:01.623 --> 11:04.083
fleet squadron that you were in,

 00:11:04.083 --> 11:06.603
what aircraft was that? What

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aircraft did you fly?

 00:11:07.583 --> 11:11.963
Hellcats. I flew SBD in training,

 00:11:11.963 --> 11:13.643
but then I was selected for

 00:11:13.643 --> 11:18.443
fighters, went to 6F training

 00:11:18.443 --> 11:22.243
down at Opelaka, Miami, Florida,

 00:11:22.243 --> 11:25.683
and carrier qualified on the USS

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Ranger CV4, Captain McCain.

 00:11:29.433 --> 11:31.803
Okay. Commanding. So that was

 00:11:31.803 --> 11:33.863
Senator John McCain's father or

 00:11:33.863 --> 11:34.283
grandfather? That would have

 00:11:34.283 --> 11:35.563
been his father. Grandfather.

 00:11:35.713 --> 11:37.133
Grandfather. Grandfather. Okay.

 00:11:37.313 --> 11:37.743
Grandfather.

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So Hellcats. So Hellcats, your

 00:11:40.097 --> 11:42.617
first fleet squadron. So did you

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fly Hellcats until you

 00:11:44.077 --> 11:45.897
transitioned to jets or did you

 00:11:45.897 --> 11:47.677
fly something in between

 00:11:47.677 --> 11:49.227
Hellcats and F9Fs?

 00:11:49.607 --> 11:53.831
I flew Corsairs. I flew Corsairs

 00:11:53.831 --> 11:57.539
out of Los Alamitos. Well, an

 00:11:57.539 --> 11:59.539
interesting thing. I first went

 00:11:59.539 --> 12:02.439
on the FDR shortly after that,

 00:12:02.439 --> 12:04.099
transferred to the Princeton.

 00:12:04.459 --> 12:07.579
The Princeton was carrying

 00:12:07.579 --> 12:09.579
Emmanuel Cuisin's body, the

 00:12:09.579 --> 12:12.159
president of the Philippines,

 00:12:12.159 --> 12:14.559
who spent much of the year in

 00:12:14.559 --> 12:16.879
the United States and died here.

 00:12:17.469 --> 12:19.559
And through the Panama Canal,

 00:12:19.559 --> 12:22.199
San Diego, there we got a group

 00:12:22.199 --> 12:28.899
of Naval Academy, Lieutenant JGs,

 00:12:28.899 --> 12:30.609
that had just gotten their wings.

 00:12:30.619 --> 12:33.419
We had spent tours in surface

 00:12:33.419 --> 12:36.258
craft in combat. And we were

 00:12:36.258 --> 12:39.018
going from a support squadron, a

 00:12:39.018 --> 12:41.278
status where the maintenance was

 00:12:41.278 --> 12:43.118
done by a maintenance squadron.

 00:12:43.558 --> 12:45.818
Now, a squadron was going to do

 00:12:45.818 --> 12:47.878
everything. And we needed

 00:12:47.878 --> 12:50.838
trained department heads and so

 00:12:50.838 --> 12:53.718
forth. So they stepped in and I

 00:12:53.718 --> 12:55.798
stepped out. I went to Los

 00:12:55.798 --> 12:58.198
Alamitos. My brother was

 00:12:58.198 --> 12:59.598
stationed over at El Toro, just

 00:12:59.598 --> 13:01.978
a short distance away. And

 00:13:01.978 --> 13:04.478
matter of fact, when I did my

 00:13:04.478 --> 13:08.378
initial flying, he was the guy

 00:13:08.378 --> 13:11.438
that gave me the checkout. Is

 00:13:11.438 --> 13:11.888
that right?

 00:13:11.908 --> 13:15.318
Yeah. In the Corsair? So if you

 00:13:15.318 --> 13:17.578
had to pick. Those are cool

 00:13:17.578 --> 13:20.018
airplanes. I would gladly cut

 00:13:20.018 --> 13:21.518
off one of my testicles to fly

 00:13:21.518 --> 13:22.718
either one of those aircraft

 00:13:22.718 --> 13:26.238
right now. I had a better one.

 00:13:26.728 --> 13:29.638
Following that, I went into the

 00:13:29.638 --> 13:34.901
F-8 Bearcats. My favorite. Oh,

 00:13:34.901 --> 13:37.141
man. What great airplanes. I am

 00:13:37.141 --> 13:41.880
so jealous. Right. I made two

 00:13:41.880 --> 13:45.140
South Pacific tours in the

 00:13:45.140 --> 13:47.820
Princeton in fighter squadrons.

 00:13:48.597 --> 13:50.647
And I came back from that. And

 00:13:50.647 --> 13:52.287
in as much as I had been

 00:13:52.287 --> 13:55.167
selected for regular Navy, they

 00:13:55.167 --> 13:57.147
wanted all their pilots to have

 00:13:57.147 --> 13:58.297
at least two years of college.

 00:13:58.307 --> 14:01.507
And I was out of high school. So

 00:14:01.507 --> 14:02.707
they sent me to the University

 00:14:02.707 --> 14:05.407
of Minnesota for 18 months. And

 00:14:05.407 --> 14:09.127
I got a four-year degree. And

 00:14:09.127 --> 14:10.967
they sent me on to a PT school.

 00:14:11.727 --> 14:13.077
Okay. What's PT school?

 00:14:15.094 --> 14:15.134
PG.

 00:14:15.814 --> 14:17.174
Postgraduate. Postgraduate. Okay.

 00:14:17.184 --> 14:19.164
Oh, PG. Postgraduate. Got it.

 00:14:19.174 --> 14:22.071
Okay. So you got a four-year

 00:14:22.071 --> 14:23.631
degree in 18 months. And then

 00:14:23.631 --> 14:24.861
you went to postgraduate school.

 00:14:25.221 --> 14:27.051
Boy, you couldn't do that today.

 00:14:27.311 --> 14:29.971
No. Repeat. No. I couldn't do

 00:14:29.971 --> 14:33.054
that. So your undergraduate

 00:14:33.054 --> 14:34.434
degree, would you say, was the

 00:14:34.434 --> 14:35.334
University of Minnesota?

 00:14:36.064 --> 14:38.454
Yes. Was that because you hail

 00:14:38.454 --> 14:39.734
from South Dakota originally,

 00:14:39.734 --> 14:39.854
right?

 00:14:40.455 --> 14:44.195
Yes. At age 11, my dad got his

 00:14:44.195 --> 14:47.495
World War II bonus. And it

 00:14:47.495 --> 14:52.383
allowed him to select to run a

 00:14:52.383 --> 14:54.763
grocery store on his own. And

 00:14:54.763 --> 14:56.533
looking around, we found

 00:14:58.788 --> 15:00.708
appropriate storefronts on the

 00:15:00.708 --> 15:03.108
other side of Big Peninsula Lake,

 00:15:03.108 --> 15:05.308
the border lake between South

 00:15:05.308 --> 15:09.948
Dakota and Minnesota. So just a

 00:15:09.948 --> 15:12.128
short distance from where I grew

 00:15:12.128 --> 15:13.948
up, but now in Minnesota.

 00:15:14.498 --> 15:17.046
Nice. Well, now that we've

 00:15:17.046 --> 15:18.546
established he's flown every

 00:15:18.546 --> 15:20.076
single aircraft, I thought.

 00:15:20.496 --> 15:22.266
Every cool airplane on the

 00:15:22.266 --> 15:25.926
planet, right? Right. So after,

 00:15:25.926 --> 15:28.146
I guess after Corsairs, you

 00:15:28.146 --> 15:29.686
transitioned to F9Fs at some

 00:15:29.686 --> 15:32.186
point? Yeah. After you got all

 00:15:32.186 --> 15:33.966
educated up.

 00:15:34.356 --> 15:36.626
Right. So the jet transition,

 00:15:36.626 --> 15:37.456
how long was that?

 00:15:40.853 --> 15:43.133
Well, it was in a squadron. It

 00:15:43.133 --> 15:45.773
wasn't a transition. It was

 00:15:45.773 --> 15:46.953
somebody told me how to start

 00:15:46.953 --> 15:48.373
the airplane. Yeah.

 00:15:49.259 --> 15:52.629
Repeat. This is right out of

 00:15:52.629 --> 15:54.729
those old squadron files that I

 00:15:54.729 --> 15:57.149
found where they transitioned to

 00:15:57.149 --> 15:59.309
jets in one day. They handed

 00:15:59.309 --> 16:04.609
them. Yeah. No two-seat F9s,

 00:16:04.609 --> 16:05.159
correct, sir?

 00:16:05.169 --> 16:08.669
I know. Here are the keys. Don't

 00:16:08.669 --> 16:14.096
screw it up. Oh, my gosh. Wow. I

 00:16:14.096 --> 16:18.216
didn't fly two-seat airplanes

 00:16:18.216 --> 16:19.496
until I got in the Phantom.

 00:16:20.900 --> 16:26.016
Unbelievable. No kidding. So

 00:16:26.016 --> 16:27.156
what time frame does that put

 00:16:27.156 --> 16:28.736
you at when you first got into

 00:16:28.736 --> 16:30.896
the F9? Is this late 40s, early

 00:16:30.896 --> 16:34.824
50s? 1952. Okay, so it was 52.

 00:16:34.844 --> 16:35.954
You were brand new to the

 00:16:35.954 --> 16:36.974
airplane then, or relatively

 00:16:36.974 --> 16:37.854
brand new to the airplane when

 00:16:37.854 --> 16:40.354
you found yourself in the North

 00:16:40.354 --> 16:41.974
Pacific off the coast of North

 00:16:41.974 --> 16:42.134
Korea.

 00:16:43.997 --> 16:48.418
Yes, I suppose I had almost 100

 00:16:48.418 --> 16:48.578
hours.

 00:16:51.732 --> 16:55.712
Almost. Almost 100 hours. That's

 00:16:55.712 --> 16:58.668
crazy. Because what you did was,

 00:16:59.244 --> 17:00.734
well, I guess let's get into it.

 00:17:00.864 --> 17:02.584
Can you tell us about that day

 00:17:02.584 --> 17:04.404
when you woke up, what the brief

 00:17:04.404 --> 17:05.944
was like, what you were supposed

 00:17:05.944 --> 17:07.804
to be doing, and then what

 00:17:07.804 --> 17:09.844
happened to find yourself

 00:17:09.844 --> 17:11.104
completing one of the greatest

 00:17:11.104 --> 17:12.704
accomplishments in the history

 00:17:12.704 --> 17:14.454
of aviation, all aviation?

 00:17:15.488 --> 17:22.106
Yeah. We arrived at our standard

 00:17:22.106 --> 17:25.688
operating area off the coast of

 00:17:26.933 --> 17:33.366
Korea at about the border, 38th

 00:17:33.366 --> 17:35.446
parallel, border between North

 00:17:35.446 --> 17:39.413
and South Korea. And pretty much

 00:17:39.413 --> 17:43.266
the Navy was responsible for the

 00:17:43.266 --> 17:49.337
war on the eastern half of North

 00:17:49.337 --> 17:52.811
Korea. It didn't allow us to

 00:17:52.811 --> 17:54.871
spend a lot of time and

 00:17:54.871 --> 17:57.411
attention to some of the more

 00:17:57.411 --> 18:00.271
potent targets near the Yalo

 00:18:00.271 --> 18:02.711
River, which was the border

 00:18:02.711 --> 18:05.791
between China and North Korea,

 00:18:05.791 --> 18:08.971
and Russia, Soviet Union, and

 00:18:08.971 --> 18:09.491
North Korea.

 00:18:12.559 --> 18:15.189
Admiral Jocko Clark, who's Task

 00:18:15.189 --> 18:18.049
Force 77, came up with the idea

 00:18:18.049 --> 18:21.289
of moving a pretty good-sized

 00:18:21.289 --> 18:24.489
task force north to where these

 00:18:24.489 --> 18:26.149
targets would be well within our

 00:18:26.149 --> 18:29.689
range. So that night, a group of

 00:18:29.689 --> 18:32.109
three carriers and escorts,

 00:18:32.109 --> 18:35.049
maybe 20, including the

 00:18:35.049 --> 18:38.752
battleship that was the command

 00:18:40.185 --> 18:44.462
center for Jocko Clark, moved up

 00:18:44.462 --> 18:48.662
off Changin, a city on the coast,

 00:18:48.662 --> 18:51.402
a major city on the coast of

 00:18:51.402 --> 18:54.142
North Korea, and probably about

 00:18:54.142 --> 18:56.192
100 miles south of Vladivostok.

 00:18:56.971 --> 19:02.011
And we were out from Changin,

 00:19:02.011 --> 19:04.971
and arriving in the morning, I

 00:19:04.971 --> 19:07.951
was on the first flight, and

 00:19:07.951 --> 19:11.303
with carrier airplanes from all

 00:19:11.303 --> 19:13.763
three carriers, and I was in the

 00:19:13.763 --> 19:15.983
very first group that hit the

 00:19:15.983 --> 19:18.483
target at a city of Orion that

 00:19:18.483 --> 19:20.083
had a lot of

 00:19:22.456 --> 19:24.146
manufacturing and warehousing.

 00:19:26.607 --> 19:30.037
So we pretty much tore that up

 00:19:30.037 --> 19:32.477
while the people across the

 00:19:32.477 --> 19:35.297
river, the Soviets, got pretty

 00:19:35.297 --> 19:37.837
excited and a lot of chatter,

 00:19:37.897 --> 19:40.037
and they launched a lot of

 00:19:40.037 --> 19:43.958
airplanes and showed keen

 00:19:43.958 --> 19:46.198
interest. Well, I went back and

 00:19:46.198 --> 19:48.458
made my landing, and bad weather

 00:19:48.458 --> 19:51.418
had moved in, a blizzard frontal

 00:19:51.418 --> 19:53.698
system, and I was told on the

 00:19:53.698 --> 19:55.678
landing to get a quick lunch,

 00:19:55.678 --> 19:56.798
come back, because I was going

 00:19:56.798 --> 19:58.438
to be on the combat air patrol,

 00:19:59.633 --> 20:03.883
which I did. Four of us briefed

 00:20:03.883 --> 20:07.523
together, took off in miserable

 00:20:07.523 --> 20:09.563
weather, joined up, and then

 00:20:09.563 --> 20:13.583
climbed through the clouds to

 00:20:13.583 --> 20:15.743
clear sky above it, 12,000 feet.

 00:20:16.626 --> 20:20.016
And in the clouds, CIC informed

 00:20:20.016 --> 20:23.196
us that there were a group of

 00:20:23.196 --> 20:25.436
unknown aircraft coming from the

 00:20:25.436 --> 20:27.416
north, and for us to be heads up.

 00:20:28.266 --> 20:31.639
You know, once coming into clear

 00:20:31.639 --> 20:36.279
air, I saw a flight of seven in

 00:20:36.279 --> 20:40.319
the fingertip formation, heading

 00:20:40.319 --> 20:43.199
our way, all in contrail,

 00:20:43.199 --> 20:45.999
probably 50,000 feet or maybe

 00:20:45.999 --> 20:48.639
higher. They often flew to

 00:20:48.639 --> 20:53.156
55,000. So they said, well,

 00:20:53.156 --> 20:55.936
that's your target. My flight

 00:20:55.936 --> 20:59.636
leader had a warning light in

 00:20:59.636 --> 21:02.556
his fuel system, and so he was

 00:21:02.556 --> 21:05.016
directed with his wingman to

 00:21:05.016 --> 21:07.026
return to over the task force,

 00:21:07.576 --> 21:09.356
where I took the lead with a

 00:21:09.356 --> 21:10.676
wingman that I did for phone

 00:21:10.676 --> 21:14.526
with me for, and tested by guns

 00:21:14.526 --> 21:15.786
and gunsight and everything. He

 00:21:15.786 --> 21:18.466
was ready to fight, and climbed

 00:21:18.466 --> 21:20.636
in the direction that I saw him.

 00:21:20.776 --> 21:22.746
As they went over, they turned

 00:21:22.746 --> 21:28.984
back north, and we were climbing

 00:21:28.984 --> 21:31.864
to engage if possible, if

 00:21:31.864 --> 21:35.844
necessary. And at 26,000 feet,

 00:21:35.844 --> 21:39.621
they broke up in two groups and

 00:21:39.621 --> 21:41.441
descended from the contrails,

 00:21:41.851 --> 21:44.886
and we lost sight of them. And I

 00:21:44.886 --> 21:46.506
reported that to the carrier,

 00:21:46.506 --> 21:47.866
and they lost sight of them as

 00:21:47.866 --> 21:50.106
well as they became a smaller

 00:21:50.106 --> 21:52.146
target. So I was instructed to

 00:21:52.146 --> 21:54.346
come back and establish a

 00:21:54.346 --> 21:56.006
barricade between the last

 00:21:56.006 --> 21:58.566
sighting and the task force. And

 00:21:58.566 --> 22:02.086
so in that turn, here come four

 00:22:02.086 --> 22:04.106
of them at my 10 o'clock

 00:22:04.106 --> 22:07.631
position, all firing. Oh, geez.

 00:22:07.651 --> 22:11.255
I wasn't given the instruction,

 00:22:11.255 --> 22:14.535
but intuition and my job. I

 00:22:14.535 --> 22:16.695
turned hard into him. Ended up

 00:22:16.695 --> 22:18.735
right on the tail of number four.

 00:22:19.115 --> 22:20.855
Short burst, and he started

 00:22:20.855 --> 22:23.535
smoking and dropping. And my

 00:22:23.535 --> 22:26.847
wingman followed him on down for,

 00:22:27.868 --> 22:30.788
I don't know why. But he left me,

 00:22:30.788 --> 22:34.308
and I didn't work with him

 00:22:34.308 --> 22:35.108
anymore. Thanks a lot.

 00:22:36.908 --> 22:38.528
He already shot him. Don't go

 00:22:38.528 --> 22:41.028
after him. Oh, my goodness. Oh,

 00:22:41.028 --> 22:42.848
my gosh. So you've got, so now

 00:22:42.848 --> 22:45.508
you're alone with six. You've

 00:22:45.508 --> 22:46.728
gotten one, and there's six more

 00:22:46.728 --> 22:50.033
in the fight somewhere. Yeah,

 00:22:50.033 --> 22:50.543
that's right.

 00:22:50.783 --> 22:57.012
Oh, my gosh. Oh. So I think if I

 00:22:57.012 --> 23:03.312
could take what I know now and

 00:23:03.312 --> 23:05.492
parlay that into what I think

 00:23:05.492 --> 23:08.376
happened, was that the three

 00:23:08.376 --> 23:10.856
remaining in the division that

 00:23:10.856 --> 23:14.016
just lost their tail end,

 00:23:14.016 --> 23:16.596
Charlie Gly, pulled up abruptly

 00:23:16.596 --> 23:19.776
and climbed smartly to 2,000

 00:23:19.776 --> 23:23.596
feet or so above me. And I was

 00:23:23.596 --> 23:27.336
trailing them, but following,

 00:23:27.336 --> 23:30.958
and as they turned to attack me,

 00:23:31.593 --> 23:35.313
I switched my aim and tracking

 00:23:35.313 --> 23:40.027
on the lead aircraft. And as I

 00:23:40.027 --> 23:44.329
completed the ready to attack

 00:23:44.329 --> 23:48.769
him, that airplane was firing at

 00:23:48.769 --> 23:52.237
me at a distance that, as far as

 00:23:52.237 --> 23:54.557
for the weapons I had, I felt

 00:23:54.557 --> 23:57.037
was out of range. So I just

 00:23:57.037 --> 23:58.417
tracked for a while until I

 00:23:58.417 --> 24:01.377
thought, okay, in which case, I

 00:24:01.377 --> 24:03.437
fired a brief shot, and he

 00:24:03.437 --> 24:05.137
stopped firing and turned away.

 00:24:06.015 --> 24:11.635
And as the later on, my guess

 00:24:11.635 --> 24:13.835
that this, who was the leader of

 00:24:13.835 --> 24:17.855
all seven, probably nicked him,

 00:24:17.855 --> 24:20.435
and he didn't want to continue

 00:24:20.435 --> 24:25.815
the attack. I switched my aim

 00:24:25.815 --> 24:28.475
and readiness on his wingman,

 00:24:28.475 --> 24:33.906
who was heading toward firing,

 00:24:33.906 --> 24:36.086
and went in range. I fired at

 00:24:36.086 --> 24:39.086
him. He stopped, didn't maneuver

 00:24:39.086 --> 24:41.786
anything, just slid right under

 00:24:41.786 --> 24:44.046
my airplane. I think he was dead

 00:24:44.046 --> 24:44.286
at all.

 00:24:45.424 --> 24:48.554
Okay, I have to ask, right now,

 00:24:48.554 --> 24:50.754
Captain Williams, were these

 00:24:50.754 --> 24:52.494
face shots? In other words, were

 00:24:52.494 --> 24:54.734
you shooting at each other,

 00:24:54.734 --> 24:56.234
going at each other, or was

 00:24:56.234 --> 24:57.164
there turning involved?

 00:24:58.798 --> 25:01.658
No. It was like we were just

 00:25:01.658 --> 25:02.468
pointing at each other.

 00:25:02.788 --> 25:06.486
That's what I thought. Holy cow.

 00:25:07.146 --> 25:10.426
That's, that's, that's, that's

 00:25:10.426 --> 25:13.606
terrifying. Repeat. What's one,

 00:25:13.606 --> 25:14.866
what's rule one when you're

 00:25:14.866 --> 25:17.046
training? No face shots. These

 00:25:17.046 --> 25:20.466
guys. Oh, my God. This is. Okay.

 00:25:20.896 --> 25:23.226
So I'm, I'm, I mean, my, my feet

 00:25:23.226 --> 25:24.506
are sweating. My palms are

 00:25:24.506 --> 25:25.966
sweating. So you've got two of

 00:25:25.966 --> 25:27.086
them, and you're still in a fur

 00:25:27.086 --> 25:28.406
ball, though, with these guys.

 00:25:30.074 --> 25:34.084
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The other three

 00:25:34.084 --> 25:36.204
came in from the other side, and

 00:25:36.204 --> 25:37.844
now, instead of in formation,

 00:25:37.844 --> 25:39.684
they were, individuals, and it

 00:25:39.684 --> 25:42.550
was like our, uh, gunnery

 00:25:42.550 --> 25:45.830
training of, uh. Right. One in,

 00:25:45.830 --> 25:46.490
four off.

 00:25:47.217 --> 25:48.797
Yeah. And taking their turns.

 00:25:49.734 --> 25:51.604
Yeah, so you were, you were, you

 00:25:51.604 --> 25:53.414
were seriously maneuvering now.

 00:25:54.404 --> 25:57.354
Uh. Yes. Fighting off multiple

 00:25:57.354 --> 25:57.644
attacks.

 00:25:57.664 --> 25:59.834
At what point, uh, do you

 00:25:59.834 --> 26:01.134
remember how many rounds you had

 00:26:01.134 --> 26:02.494
on board, you know, in your gun?

 00:26:04.720 --> 26:08.537
I think 780, maybe 720. Okay.

 00:26:08.557 --> 26:11.254
Yeah. So, uh, we've, still,

 00:26:11.254 --> 26:12.484
you've got some left, though.

 00:26:12.504 --> 26:14.674
It's not, it's not unlimited.

 00:26:14.684 --> 26:17.494
It's not unlimited. It's not

 00:26:17.494 --> 26:18.834
unlimited. But you weren't done

 00:26:18.834 --> 26:20.014
with these guys yet. You've

 00:26:20.014 --> 26:21.394
gotten two of them. Now you're

 00:26:21.394 --> 26:22.454
1v5.

 00:26:24.478 --> 26:25.938
What, what happened next? Yes.

 00:26:26.924 --> 26:33.104
And maybe, uh, I think he stayed

 00:26:33.104 --> 26:35.164
above the fray. Okay. He was in

 00:26:35.164 --> 26:36.724
charge of the whole thing. Okay.

 00:26:36.734 --> 26:39.084
I don't think he ran off. But,

 00:26:39.084 --> 26:42.304
uh, according to a book that, uh,

 00:26:42.304 --> 26:45.764
came out written by a military

 00:26:45.764 --> 26:49.184
historian that, uh, two

 00:26:49.184 --> 26:51.024
airplanes were returning to

 00:26:51.024 --> 26:54.617
Vladivostok. And along the way,

 00:26:55.160 --> 26:56.920
one of them dropped, I suspect,

 00:26:56.920 --> 26:58.420
that could have been the lead

 00:26:58.420 --> 27:01.180
and was losing fuel and just, uh,

 00:27:01.180 --> 27:04.965
ran dry and died in the ocean.

 00:27:04.935 --> 27:07.653
Okay. Wow. And I don't mean to

 00:27:07.653 --> 27:08.713
put you on the spot. Do you

 00:27:08.713 --> 27:09.633
remember the name of that book

 00:27:09.633 --> 27:10.753
or was it in Russian?

 00:27:13.588 --> 27:15.368
The name of the book is called

 00:27:15.368 --> 27:17.248
Red Devils Over the Yalu.

 00:27:17.158 --> 27:18.448
Red Devils Over the Yalu. Okay.

 00:27:19.571 --> 27:22.061
Written by Igor Seidov.

 00:27:22.241 --> 27:23.681
S-E-I-D-O-V.

 00:27:24.521 --> 27:26.492
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. All

 00:27:26.492 --> 27:28.412
right. Sorry to interrupt. Oh,

 00:27:28.412 --> 27:31.092
that's my brain talking. There

 00:27:31.092 --> 27:31.692
you go.

 00:27:32.082 --> 27:33.512
She has, she has a, your brain

 00:27:33.512 --> 27:35.372
has a wonderful voice. Captain

 00:27:35.372 --> 27:35.422
Williams.

 00:27:37.502 --> 27:39.952
This book came out in what, by

 00:27:39.952 --> 27:46.849
1992? Oh, no. 2013. 2013? In, uh,

 00:27:46.849 --> 27:52.514
1992, Soviet Union broke up and

 00:27:52.514 --> 27:55.634
newspapers telling the story of

 00:27:55.634 --> 28:00.006
this 1952 event disclose the

 00:28:00.006 --> 28:02.966
name of four. So I have those

 00:28:02.966 --> 28:05.746
names, they've been published,

 00:28:05.746 --> 28:09.727
that were shot down. There's the

 00:28:09.727 --> 28:12.927
confirmation. Yeah. Tammy feels

 00:28:12.927 --> 28:15.933
that maybe two more could have

 00:28:15.933 --> 28:18.713
been lost, but could well have

 00:28:18.713 --> 28:22.553
been other communist nation

 00:28:22.553 --> 28:24.113
personnel flying with them and

 00:28:24.113 --> 28:26.633
they didn't have the right to

 00:28:26.633 --> 28:28.818
publish their names. We don't

 00:28:28.818 --> 28:29.048
know.

 00:28:29.538 --> 28:31.918
So in this fight that you're in,

 00:28:31.918 --> 28:33.368
you shot down two airplanes.

 00:28:33.708 --> 28:37.341
Nick to third. Yeah. Possibly

 00:28:37.341 --> 28:38.441
Nick to third. So that means

 00:28:38.441 --> 28:41.121
there's four making gun runs on

 00:28:41.121 --> 28:41.131
you.

 00:28:41.381 --> 28:42.551
Yes, that's right.

 00:28:43.491 --> 28:46.401
So, so how do you even survive

 00:28:46.401 --> 28:48.841
this? This is amazing. So I know,

 00:28:48.841 --> 28:50.781
uh, that eventually you got a

 00:28:50.781 --> 28:52.581
fourth and then at some point

 00:28:52.581 --> 28:55.741
they decided, uh, that maybe you

 00:28:55.741 --> 28:57.501
were not the right person to be

 00:28:57.501 --> 28:59.341
hangling with and chose the

 00:28:59.341 --> 29:00.721
better part of valor and went

 00:29:00.721 --> 29:02.341
home so they could live to try

 00:29:02.341 --> 29:02.951
the other day.

 00:29:04.082 --> 29:06.502
Well, no, I don't think that's

 00:29:06.502 --> 29:08.962
the way it was. So I'm dying.

 00:29:08.972 --> 29:10.802
Let's, let's hear it. Well, the

 00:29:10.802 --> 29:13.792
next one that made a mistake.

 00:29:13.982 --> 29:17.402
Instead of abruptly climbing and

 00:29:17.402 --> 29:19.302
getting out of it and getting up

 00:29:19.302 --> 29:21.562
on the perch to come back, at a

 00:29:21.562 --> 29:24.542
level point crossed me. And I,

 00:29:24.542 --> 29:26.162
uh, uh, at a close range track

 00:29:26.162 --> 29:28.902
and fired and, uh, uh, the

 00:29:28.902 --> 29:31.508
airplane broke up. Uh, and then

 00:29:31.508 --> 29:32.548
so I'm back there, there are

 00:29:32.548 --> 29:34.188
fewer, but they're still making

 00:29:34.188 --> 29:36.548
runs on it. And my attention is

 00:29:36.548 --> 29:39.468
not following who else is where,

 00:29:39.468 --> 29:40.738
except for the guy on my tail.

 00:29:41.378 --> 29:44.208
And I was maneuvering to loss up

 00:29:44.208 --> 29:47.928
his name and survive. I came on

 00:29:47.928 --> 29:50.688
another one and I was dead

 00:29:50.688 --> 29:53.328
behind him in fairly close range

 00:29:53.328 --> 29:55.588
and, uh, firing, he started

 00:29:55.588 --> 29:58.648
smoking and dropping out, going

 00:29:58.648 --> 30:03.511
low, leaving 26,000 feet. And I

 00:30:03.511 --> 30:06.305
ran out of ammunition. And at

 00:30:06.305 --> 30:08.085
that point I looked around and

 00:30:08.085 --> 30:10.925
here's the leg on my tail. So I

 00:30:10.925 --> 30:13.405
made a hard turn right. And he

 00:30:13.405 --> 30:16.545
got a lucky 37 millimeter into

 00:30:16.545 --> 30:18.945
my accessory section of the

 00:30:18.945 --> 30:22.302
engine and knocked out all my

 00:30:22.302 --> 30:25.202
hydraulics and severed the cable

 00:30:25.202 --> 30:28.961
to the rudder. Jeez. The

 00:30:28.961 --> 30:30.481
airplane was out of rig at that

 00:30:30.481 --> 30:34.061
point. I had to really use two

 00:30:34.061 --> 30:37.241
hands on the stick to do my

 00:30:37.241 --> 30:39.921
flying, but he stood nicely

 00:30:39.921 --> 30:43.021
right on my tail and I was still

 00:30:43.021 --> 30:45.361
some distance from the clouds

 00:30:45.361 --> 30:48.081
that were between us and the

 00:30:48.081 --> 30:51.921
task force. But I was aimed just

 00:30:51.921 --> 30:56.101
accidentally at the clouds and I

 00:30:56.101 --> 30:58.321
started dropping altitude, quite

 00:30:58.321 --> 31:00.361
steep, but I pushed the stick

 00:31:00.361 --> 31:01.841
forward and I pulled it back. I

 00:31:01.841 --> 31:04.121
just pulled a lot of G's in both

 00:31:04.121 --> 31:06.721
directions or a big yo-yo. And

 00:31:06.721 --> 31:08.061
though he just sat back there

 00:31:08.061 --> 31:10.261
and fired and fired all the way

 00:31:10.261 --> 31:11.921
until both of us got into the

 00:31:11.921 --> 31:14.861
clouds, he didn't nail me.

 00:31:14.911 --> 31:17.721
Thank goodness. Wow. That's so

 00:31:17.721 --> 31:18.941
fortunate then. And so now

 00:31:18.941 --> 31:20.001
you're trying to, now you have

 00:31:20.001 --> 31:21.741
to make it back to the ship in a

 00:31:21.741 --> 31:23.311
crippled bird. That's true.

 00:31:23.331 --> 31:26.441
Yeah. Either that or the other

 00:31:26.441 --> 31:27.921
options weren't very popular.

 00:31:28.331 --> 31:29.841
I can't imagine wanting to bail

 00:31:29.841 --> 31:31.821
out in that cold water. Yeah.

 00:31:31.831 --> 31:36.281
Well, my intuition was that I

 00:31:36.281 --> 31:37.961
got an airplane and I got an

 00:31:37.961 --> 31:41.181
ejection seat, but I mulled it

 00:31:41.181 --> 31:43.501
briefly and said, hey, that was

 00:31:43.501 --> 31:45.341
going to come to my rescue in

 00:31:45.341 --> 31:49.121
time. To save me from dying from

 00:31:49.121 --> 31:52.781
the cold water. So obviously I

 00:31:52.781 --> 31:54.761
stuck with it and I knew the

 00:31:54.761 --> 31:57.101
base of the clouds were about

 00:31:57.101 --> 31:59.721
four or 500 feet. So I just

 00:31:59.721 --> 32:01.941
lowered myself down, heading

 00:32:01.941 --> 32:05.021
toward the task force and

 00:32:05.021 --> 32:08.018
checking things as it went. And

 00:32:08.018 --> 32:10.538
as I came out underneath the

 00:32:10.538 --> 32:14.158
clouds leveled off, I was right

 00:32:14.158 --> 32:18.625
near the task force. And my

 00:32:18.625 --> 32:20.605
commanding officer and his

 00:32:20.605 --> 32:22.745
flight were just launched to

 00:32:22.745 --> 32:26.785
come up and relieve us. And he

 00:32:26.785 --> 32:29.285
saw that the task force, who had

 00:32:29.285 --> 32:30.685
been at general quarters, which

 00:32:30.685 --> 32:34.345
he was, hadn't been informed

 00:32:34.345 --> 32:36.205
that I was friendly. So they

 00:32:36.205 --> 32:37.945
were shooting at me. Of course

 00:32:37.945 --> 32:38.415
they were.

 00:32:39.090 --> 32:39.710
Oh, dear.

 00:32:40.140 --> 32:41.770
They called the darkness off.

 00:32:41.780 --> 32:44.410
And I started to figure my next

 00:32:44.410 --> 32:45.910
step to try to get aboard a

 00:32:45.910 --> 32:48.390
carrier in terrible weather and

 00:32:48.390 --> 32:51.470
a bad airplane. Seeing at what

 00:32:51.470 --> 32:53.930
speed I could slow to and still

 00:32:53.930 --> 32:57.510
fly, and I got down to 170 knots

 00:32:57.510 --> 33:00.205
and it was going to stall out.

 00:33:00.215 --> 33:03.025
So I had to come in above that.

 00:33:03.035 --> 33:06.938
Wow. That is fast. Notify the

 00:33:06.938 --> 33:10.338
landing signal officer. And he's

 00:33:10.338 --> 33:13.698
been ready for a tough job to

 00:33:13.698 --> 33:16.278
get me aboard. Well, I had to

 00:33:16.278 --> 33:18.318
wait till the aircraft that had

 00:33:18.318 --> 33:21.058
been lined up for launch for

 00:33:21.058 --> 33:24.708
another attack on North Korea.

 00:33:25.598 --> 33:28.978
Now the plans had changed, and

 00:33:28.978 --> 33:30.298
they were pulling everything

 00:33:30.298 --> 33:32.518
forward to make room for me to

 00:33:32.518 --> 33:34.898
land on a street deck airplane.

 00:33:36.728 --> 33:40.018
So it was some time, and I'm

 00:33:40.018 --> 33:41.838
assessing myself and positioning

 00:33:41.838 --> 33:44.618
it as best I could to be in the

 00:33:44.618 --> 33:47.358
right spot when I got a Charlie

 00:33:47.358 --> 33:49.538
permission to land. And when

 00:33:49.538 --> 33:52.338
that happened, I was in fairly

 00:33:52.338 --> 33:55.678
good shape behind the ship as it

 00:33:55.678 --> 34:00.474
went into the wind. And I let

 00:34:00.474 --> 34:02.214
them know I was fast, of course.

 00:34:02.674 --> 34:04.894
And the commanding officer said,

 00:34:04.894 --> 34:07.034
Brigham, any speed he wants. We

 00:34:07.034 --> 34:09.454
had plenty of surface wind plus

 00:34:09.454 --> 34:11.654
speed of the ship. But I

 00:34:11.654 --> 34:13.214
couldn't line up, and I was

 00:34:13.214 --> 34:15.654
going to cut crossways on the

 00:34:15.654 --> 34:16.874
carrier and would have put me

 00:34:16.874 --> 34:19.294
over the side. And the captain

 00:34:19.294 --> 34:21.294
knew that, and as I got on in

 00:34:21.294 --> 34:23.654
and pretty close, he whipped the

 00:34:23.654 --> 34:25.554
ship around and lined it up with

 00:34:25.554 --> 34:25.754
me.

 00:34:26.354 --> 34:29.534
And boom, I landed in a fairly

 00:34:29.534 --> 34:31.034
good landing. That's awesome.

 00:34:31.894 --> 34:35.434
Wow. And so then you tail hooked,

 00:34:35.434 --> 34:36.934
no barricade. Did they even have

 00:34:36.934 --> 34:38.788
barricades, then? Oh, yes. Okay.

 00:34:39.118 --> 34:41.448
So that was pre-hook. It was

 00:34:41.448 --> 34:43.128
major. On a straight deck, it

 00:34:43.128 --> 34:45.488
was more important than on an

 00:34:45.488 --> 34:47.408
angled because they had all

 00:34:47.408 --> 34:50.268
aircraft forward being armed and

 00:34:50.268 --> 34:50.748
fueled.

 00:34:51.448 --> 34:53.808
They're starting that as soon as

 00:34:53.808 --> 34:56.848
they land. But if an airplane's

 00:34:56.848 --> 34:59.428
coming in and has a problem,

 00:34:59.428 --> 35:00.668
they probably already put the

 00:35:00.668 --> 35:03.248
barricade up. But they had

 00:35:03.248 --> 35:04.608
operators right there who were

 00:35:04.608 --> 35:07.148
swift. If somebody was starting

 00:35:07.148 --> 35:08.888
to skip wires, they were going

 00:35:08.888 --> 35:11.808
to put the barricade up. So that

 00:35:11.808 --> 35:13.428
was my second defense.

 00:35:14.748 --> 35:17.868
All right. So you said you

 00:35:17.868 --> 35:19.518
couldn't get any slower than 170.

 00:35:19.878 --> 35:22.548
What was a normal landing speed

 00:35:22.548 --> 35:28.404
for a Panther? About 105. So

 00:35:28.404 --> 35:31.784
you're 65, 70 knots faster than

 00:35:31.784 --> 35:33.314
you normally are. Yeah.

 00:35:33.774 --> 35:35.444
I never heard of anybody landing.

 00:35:35.454 --> 35:37.364
Oh, it's terrifying. You think,

 00:35:37.364 --> 35:38.384
you know, is the cross-deck

 00:35:38.384 --> 35:39.344
pendant going to break? Is the

 00:35:39.344 --> 35:40.015
hook going to hold?

 00:35:40.475 --> 35:42.495
All that, you know. Well, and

 00:35:42.495 --> 35:45.535
I've seen that happen. Boy, that,

 00:35:45.535 --> 35:47.635
uh, his day comes flipping

 00:35:47.635 --> 35:49.655
across. I saw a chief penny

 00:35:49.655 --> 35:52.635
officer out there to, uh, drop

 00:35:52.635 --> 35:57.828
the, um, his pendant and clear

 00:35:57.828 --> 35:59.868
the hook. And that came around

 00:35:59.868 --> 36:01.808
and cut off both of his legs.

 00:36:02.495 --> 36:03.885
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Dangerous

 00:36:03.885 --> 36:05.005
place to be on a carrier deck.

 00:36:05.515 --> 36:07.258
Oh. Yeah. Indeed.

 00:36:08.358 --> 36:11.478
And if, uh, if, uh, my, my

 00:36:11.478 --> 36:12.978
memory's correct, I, cause I, uh,

 00:36:12.978 --> 36:14.748
from my reading, uh, of your

 00:36:15.058 --> 36:18.378
event that your aircraft was so

 00:36:18.378 --> 36:20.638
badly battle damaged that after

 00:36:20.638 --> 36:22.718
you, uh, got out of the airplane,

 00:36:22.718 --> 36:23.928
they, they just pushed it over.

 00:36:24.168 --> 36:27.358
Well, we, this was the last day

 00:36:27.358 --> 36:30.818
on the line for Princeton. So we

 00:36:30.818 --> 36:35.278
headed toward Yokozka and it

 00:36:35.278 --> 36:36.678
took a little time to get there,

 00:36:36.678 --> 36:39.638
but I received orders that on

 00:36:39.638 --> 36:41.798
arrival to report to Admiral

 00:36:41.798 --> 36:44.078
Briscoe, the senior naval

 00:36:44.078 --> 36:46.758
officer in the Western Pacific,

 00:36:46.758 --> 36:49.638
and I was prepared to, when we

 00:36:49.638 --> 36:51.778
docked, I went down on the

 00:36:51.778 --> 36:52.818
hangar deck and I saw second

 00:36:53.908 --> 36:56.798
class, uh, patty officer, uh, or

 00:36:56.798 --> 36:59.458
Boson, who handles these

 00:36:59.458 --> 37:00.308
aircraft in his pocket.

 00:37:02.598 --> 37:08.998
And he said, sorry, sir, but we

 00:37:08.998 --> 37:11.358
pushed it over the side. Well,

 00:37:11.358 --> 37:13.678
it turns out that, uh, that was

 00:37:13.678 --> 37:15.198
not true. It probably wasn't

 00:37:15.198 --> 37:18.818
true. And, uh, Admiral Shelton,

 00:37:18.818 --> 37:23.128
who picked up, uh, volunteered

 00:37:23.128 --> 37:25.908
on it. He started a look-see

 00:37:25.908 --> 37:28.688
into this many years later,

 00:37:28.688 --> 37:30.728
thinking that I hadn't been

 00:37:30.728 --> 37:33.468
properly awarded. And, uh, in

 00:37:33.468 --> 37:37.208
his study, he, uh, booked all of

 00:37:37.208 --> 37:41.193
the data on the, uh, bureau

 00:37:41.193 --> 37:43.373
numbers and found that it went

 00:37:43.373 --> 37:46.333
into overhaul and was useful

 00:37:46.333 --> 37:47.663
again in the training command.

 00:37:47.983 --> 37:51.146
Nice. I'll be damned. That's

 00:37:51.146 --> 37:52.086
beautiful. How about that?

 00:37:52.096 --> 37:53.506
Because, yeah, because Wikipedia

 00:37:53.506 --> 37:54.766
says they pushed it over, but

 00:37:54.766 --> 37:57.536
had, uh, it had 263 holes in it.

 00:37:58.216 --> 38:00.481
Yeah. That's all right.

 00:38:00.991 --> 38:03.291
Swiss cheese of an airplane by

 00:38:03.291 --> 38:04.331
the time you brought it back.

 00:38:04.601 --> 38:07.907
Wow. Okay. I, I have a couple of

 00:38:07.907 --> 38:09.627
questions that haven't come up

 00:38:09.627 --> 38:11.187
since I've been listening to you

 00:38:11.187 --> 38:13.167
talking, sir. One, one question

 00:38:13.167 --> 38:16.734
is, um, it, when you were

 00:38:16.734 --> 38:19.619
engaged, when you were already

 00:38:19.619 --> 38:22.139
engaged with MIGS, the article I

 00:38:22.139 --> 38:24.359
read said that you were informed

 00:38:24.359 --> 38:27.159
by the CIC to not engage. And

 00:38:27.159 --> 38:29.877
your reply was, I'm already

 00:38:29.877 --> 38:29.927
engaged.

 00:38:30.997 --> 38:32.937
Yeah. Yeah. There wasn't any

 00:38:32.937 --> 38:36.228
choice of the matter. I couldn't

 00:38:36.228 --> 38:39.144
turn tail, run, or with that

 00:38:39.144 --> 38:40.924
many ready to jump, man.

 00:38:41.654 --> 38:43.144
Right. No, that would have been,

 00:38:43.144 --> 38:44.604
that, that, that wouldn't have

 00:38:44.604 --> 38:48.586
worked out well. No. So at what

 00:38:48.586 --> 38:52.300
point did you, were you told,

 00:38:52.300 --> 38:55.480
okay, this, this didn't happen

 00:38:55.480 --> 38:57.320
because these were Russians? Uh,

 00:38:57.320 --> 38:59.060
was, was that, uh, when you went

 00:38:59.060 --> 38:59.870
to see the Admiral?

 00:39:00.945 --> 39:03.805
At first he wanted to know what,

 00:39:03.805 --> 39:06.447
uh, was meant and why did the,

 00:39:07.190 --> 39:09.270
or risk any of the carrier put

 00:39:09.270 --> 39:11.530
out the message that it did,

 00:39:11.530 --> 39:14.729
which was entirely false. And,

 00:39:14.729 --> 39:16.809
uh, it was because our

 00:39:16.809 --> 39:19.369
intelligence officer, without

 00:39:19.369 --> 39:21.849
debriefing us, had to make a

 00:39:21.849 --> 39:24.609
report to Washington. uh, and,

 00:39:24.609 --> 39:26.109
uh, uh, and his fertile mind

 00:39:26.109 --> 39:28.229
came up with what he thought

 00:39:28.229 --> 39:29.619
would be a good story and

 00:39:29.619 --> 39:33.441
treating everybody fairly. But,

 00:39:33.441 --> 39:36.441
uh, but that wasn't true. And,

 00:39:36.441 --> 39:41.469
uh, we proceeded to him say that

 00:39:41.469 --> 39:43.589
what I'm about to tell you, you

 00:39:43.589 --> 39:46.209
can't tell anybody ever. And

 00:39:46.209 --> 39:51.989
they told me about the, uh, NSA

 00:39:51.989 --> 39:54.969
group and first operation aboard

 00:39:54.969 --> 39:58.909
the USS Helena Navy cruiser off

 00:39:58.909 --> 40:01.309
the coast of Vladivostok with

 00:40:01.309 --> 40:03.169
their team on board of

 00:40:03.169 --> 40:06.389
monitoring and they, they had

 00:40:06.389 --> 40:08.429
these guys from their takeoff

 00:40:08.429 --> 40:11.389
until the remnant came back and

 00:40:11.389 --> 40:13.389
they would like for the Admiral

 00:40:13.389 --> 40:15.859
to let me know that I got at

 00:40:15.819 --> 40:19.659
least three and now don't tell

 00:40:19.659 --> 40:24.202
anybody. So, with that

 00:40:24.202 --> 40:26.382
admonition, I was pretty much

 00:40:26.382 --> 40:27.642
out of the game because I felt

 00:40:27.642 --> 40:30.222
if I'd start talking about the

 00:40:30.222 --> 40:32.742
report, the lie that went out, I

 00:40:32.742 --> 40:34.582
would get myself in trouble

 00:40:34.582 --> 40:36.422
saying things I wasn't

 00:40:36.422 --> 40:38.722
authorized to say. So I just

 00:40:38.722 --> 40:40.562
stayed out of the fray and

 00:40:40.562 --> 40:44.041
didn't assess, uh, credit to

 00:40:44.041 --> 40:46.741
anybody except I accepted that.

 00:40:46.751 --> 40:49.217
I got at least one. Nice.

 00:40:49.767 --> 40:52.397
Okay. What was the official

 00:40:52.397 --> 40:54.857
story, uh, that, uh, that went

 00:40:54.857 --> 40:56.597
out the press release or

 00:40:56.597 --> 40:58.037
whatever that went back to not

 00:40:58.037 --> 40:59.617
press release, but what was the

 00:40:59.617 --> 41:01.677
official combat? Yeah. What,

 00:41:01.677 --> 41:02.937
what, what was the Navy story

 00:41:02.937 --> 41:03.647
for 50 years?

 00:41:04.007 --> 41:05.257
Because it was top, it was, this

 00:41:05.257 --> 41:07.217
was top secret until 2002,

 00:41:07.217 --> 41:07.377
correct?

 00:41:08.527 --> 41:12.177
Yes. Uh, I don't know if they

 00:41:12.177 --> 41:14.877
said or Soviets at any point,

 00:41:14.877 --> 41:16.877
they talked about a MiG

 00:41:16.877 --> 41:20.437
engagement, uh, that I was there

 00:41:20.437 --> 41:22.777
in the flight of four and it

 00:41:22.777 --> 41:24.747
ended up pretty much just me.

 00:41:25.277 --> 41:27.517
however, uh, they gave credit

 00:41:27.517 --> 41:30.467
for my wingman for one damage.

 00:41:30.677 --> 41:32.917
And unfortunately he'd never

 00:41:32.917 --> 41:36.017
fired a shot. and, uh, uh, the,

 00:41:36.017 --> 41:39.227
uh, wingman from the flight lead.

 00:41:39.657 --> 41:42.197
And I said, I need some help was

 00:41:42.197 --> 41:43.717
vectored on this plane. And then

 00:41:43.717 --> 41:46.357
I was coming down smoking that I

 00:41:46.357 --> 41:48.807
ran out of ammunition on. Uh,

 00:41:48.807 --> 41:50.977
and, uh, as he made a run at him,

 00:41:50.977 --> 41:53.217
the guy ejected and they gave

 00:41:53.217 --> 41:56.510
him credit for her kill. Okay.

 00:41:57.010 --> 41:59.270
That was the story. And then

 00:41:59.270 --> 42:01.990
somebody, and I have any idea

 00:42:01.990 --> 42:05.720
who it was made up a mythical

 00:42:05.720 --> 42:07.880
report that each one of we're

 00:42:07.880 --> 42:09.190
telling about our involvement.

 00:42:09.890 --> 42:11.760
And they had me doing things I

 00:42:11.760 --> 42:14.540
didn't do. And these others

 00:42:14.540 --> 42:16.720
deeply involved in twisting and

 00:42:16.720 --> 42:18.530
tearing and shooting.

 00:42:18.850 --> 42:22.211
That's so frustrating to not be

 00:42:22.211 --> 42:23.251
able to say anything and go,

 00:42:23.251 --> 42:24.511
look, I was there. This is what

 00:42:24.511 --> 42:26.407
happened. You know? So there I

 00:42:26.407 --> 42:29.427
was. Wow. Can't say nothing.

 00:42:29.117 --> 42:31.887
There I was. Oh, that must've

 00:42:31.887 --> 42:33.587
been so frustrating because what

 00:42:33.587 --> 42:35.067
I also read was you didn't even

 00:42:35.067 --> 42:37.147
tell your bride. No, no pillow

 00:42:37.147 --> 42:39.157
talk on this one. No one at all.

 00:42:39.657 --> 42:41.107
Well, that, what an honorable

 00:42:41.107 --> 42:42.447
man, you know, told, told this

 00:42:42.447 --> 42:43.827
is top secret, keep it to

 00:42:43.827 --> 42:44.747
yourself. And you did for so

 00:42:44.747 --> 42:46.367
many years. Did I, did I also

 00:42:46.367 --> 42:47.587
read, you got to meet president

 00:42:47.587 --> 42:49.947
Eisenhower over this? Oh, very

 00:42:49.947 --> 42:50.347
much so. Yes.

 00:42:50.877 --> 42:54.847
As a president elected, his

 00:42:54.847 --> 42:56.867
promise while he was running for

 00:42:56.867 --> 42:59.707
president was if elected, he

 00:42:59.707 --> 43:02.927
would personally go to Korea and

 00:43:02.927 --> 43:06.067
assess the situation. And as he

 00:43:06.067 --> 43:08.407
came out, he declared that he

 00:43:08.407 --> 43:09.807
wanted to see Royce Williams.

 00:43:10.337 --> 43:13.721
Nice. And so everybody made it

 00:43:13.721 --> 43:16.351
so. Very cool. It happened.

 00:43:17.319 --> 43:20.049
That's, that's out, that's So

 00:43:20.049 --> 43:24.855
that was in 1952. Yes. You

 00:43:24.855 --> 43:27.315
finished that combat tour and

 00:43:27.315 --> 43:29.075
then, did you do another combat

 00:43:29.075 --> 43:32.295
tour in Korea? No. In 1953. In

 00:43:32.295 --> 43:35.935
1953, the fighting part of the

 00:43:35.935 --> 43:36.915
war stopped.

 00:43:37.345 --> 43:42.075
And Panmunjom agreements, they

 00:43:42.075 --> 43:44.515
made a division of north and

 00:43:44.515 --> 43:46.635
south. And I've been there since

 00:43:46.635 --> 43:49.035
then. And then down to Panmunjom,

 00:43:49.035 --> 43:51.735
which is kind of a strange place.

 00:43:52.529 --> 43:56.339
But it's all the distance

 00:43:56.339 --> 43:57.807
between the two countries

 00:43:58.707 --> 44:01.027
heavily mined and a lot of

 00:44:01.027 --> 44:03.707
forces at the ready. Right. Oh,

 00:44:03.707 --> 44:06.791
yeah. Right. I'm, I'm speechless.

 00:44:06.801 --> 44:07.231
I am.

 00:44:07.831 --> 44:10.191
I'm so honored. Yeah. I know.

 00:44:10.191 --> 44:13.811
Where do you go? We, you know,

 00:44:13.811 --> 44:16.631
we're, we're talking to a, we're

 00:44:16.631 --> 44:18.171
in the presence of greatness. My

 00:44:18.171 --> 44:21.029
friend, Captain Williams.

 00:44:21.039 --> 44:24.269
We're honored. Well, okay. Go

 00:44:24.269 --> 44:24.639
ahead.

 00:44:24.889 --> 44:26.429
Well, not now. So I want to, I

 00:44:26.429 --> 44:29.449
want to go. Not only did you fly

 00:44:29.449 --> 44:32.129
combat missions in, in the

 00:44:32.129 --> 44:34.369
Korean war, but you also flew

 00:44:34.369 --> 44:35.869
combat missions in the Vietnam

 00:44:35.869 --> 44:35.949
war.

 00:44:38.059 --> 44:41.929
In both the F-4 and the A-4 or,

 00:44:41.929 --> 44:44.295
or just the F-4? Oh, both. Both.

 00:44:44.925 --> 44:46.455
It was the wing commander and

 00:44:46.455 --> 44:47.045
the Kitty Hawk.

 00:44:49.735 --> 44:51.975
Were you flying two, the two

 00:44:51.975 --> 44:54.173
airplanes at the same time? Yes.

 00:44:54.173 --> 44:56.323
The A-4 and the F-4? Because

 00:44:56.323 --> 44:58.253
there's a. Same period.

 00:44:58.653 --> 45:00.343
Not at the same time.

 00:45:00.843 --> 45:03.023
Okay. Okay. Same period. Well,

 00:45:03.023 --> 45:04.983
that's all right. So what, now

 00:45:04.983 --> 45:07.683
I've, I've flown the A-4, but

 00:45:07.683 --> 45:09.703
never the A-4. The F-4. So

 00:45:09.703 --> 45:11.483
between those two airplanes,

 00:45:11.483 --> 45:13.463
which, which one. Which child

 00:45:13.463 --> 45:16.383
was your favorite? Yeah. Which

 00:45:16.383 --> 45:17.703
child's your favorite? The F-4

 00:45:17.703 --> 45:22.642
or the A-4? The A-4 for fun and

 00:45:22.642 --> 45:26.152
the F-4 for fighting. Okay. Nice.

 00:45:26.172 --> 45:28.042
I like that answer. I like that

 00:45:28.042 --> 45:29.522
answer a lot. Well, do you

 00:45:29.522 --> 45:31.322
recall how many hours you got in

 00:45:31.322 --> 45:32.962
the Panther? Because I know you

 00:45:32.962 --> 45:33.922
had just a little under a

 00:45:33.922 --> 45:35.222
hundred when you, when you, when

 00:45:35.222 --> 45:37.142
you had the combat with the MiGs.

 00:45:37.352 --> 45:41.502
Yeah. Maybe $200, $300. And when

 00:45:41.502 --> 45:45.402
we came back, we were reassigned

 00:45:45.402 --> 45:48.582
Cougars aboard the USS Boxer.

 00:45:48.592 --> 45:52.222
Okay. And we served pretty much

 00:45:52.222 --> 45:55.222
off of South Vietnam. And this

 00:45:55.222 --> 45:57.862
would be 50, late 53 and 54.

 00:46:00.094 --> 46:03.914
And we, we came near to the war.

 00:46:04.554 --> 46:07.554
We had the third fleet admiral

 00:46:07.554 --> 46:09.734
come out and join us and we

 00:46:09.734 --> 46:11.854
couldn't be in charge of the

 00:46:11.854 --> 46:15.254
fighting forces in Vietnam. And

 00:46:15.254 --> 46:17.954
President Eisenhower had pledged

 00:46:17.954 --> 46:21.184
help to the French. And, and the

 00:46:21.184 --> 46:24.054
French operation was starting

 00:46:24.054 --> 46:26.634
and I had to target a sign in

 00:46:26.634 --> 46:29.514
that area with the Cougar ready

 00:46:29.514 --> 46:32.754
to go. When communications

 00:46:32.754 --> 46:35.694
between French and American

 00:46:35.694 --> 46:39.754
decided to shut it down. And I

 00:46:39.754 --> 46:40.774
talked to the French and they

 00:46:40.774 --> 46:43.534
said, no, the Americans backed

 00:46:43.534 --> 46:48.854
up. Of course. Yeah. I just,

 00:46:48.854 --> 46:51.274
according to my recollection,

 00:46:51.274 --> 46:54.414
the truth, they just decided,

 00:46:54.414 --> 46:56.464
get out of the colonial business.

 00:46:56.674 --> 46:57.634
Right. Right.

 00:46:58.396 --> 47:00.386
And that was, the Diambam Phu

 00:47:00.386 --> 47:02.406
was the major disaster for the

 00:47:02.406 --> 47:04.946
French in Indochina, in Vietnam,

 00:47:04.946 --> 47:07.226
that led them to basically go,

 00:47:07.226 --> 47:08.726
done, we're done here. Yeah.

 00:47:09.056 --> 47:11.126
And it was a mess. The

 00:47:11.126 --> 47:14.706
Vietnamese ended up showing

 00:47:14.706 --> 47:16.356
force that nobody knew they had.

 00:47:16.376 --> 47:17.886
They were, they would have

 00:47:17.886 --> 47:18.516
cleaned house.

 00:47:19.636 --> 47:20.866
There's a couple of good

 00:47:20.866 --> 47:21.906
documentaries on that, but the,

 00:47:21.906 --> 47:23.666
the, the French lost entire

 00:47:23.666 --> 47:25.326
classes of their military

 00:47:25.326 --> 47:28.006
academies. Yes. It was a total

 00:47:28.006 --> 47:28.486
slaughter. Indeed.

 00:47:30.065 --> 47:33.435
Yeah. Yeah. They ran right into

 00:47:33.435 --> 47:33.905
a trap.

 00:47:34.781 --> 47:35.621
Yeah. They thought the

 00:47:35.621 --> 47:36.681
Vietnamese couldn't get their

 00:47:36.681 --> 47:37.461
cannons up the hill and that

 00:47:37.461 --> 47:38.381
sort of thing. They just

 00:47:38.381 --> 47:39.301
disassembled them and brought

 00:47:39.301 --> 47:40.461
them up piece by piece and put

 00:47:40.461 --> 47:42.201
them back together. And

 00:47:42.201 --> 47:43.071
ingenious.

 00:47:45.327 --> 47:47.407
So after a Coug, after you flew

 00:47:47.407 --> 47:52.388
Cougars, what, walk us through

 00:47:52.388 --> 47:54.088
your naval career from that

 00:47:54.088 --> 47:56.864
point. Came back from that tour

 00:47:56.864 --> 47:59.184
flying Cougars off the coast of

 00:47:59.184 --> 47:59.464
Vietnam.

 00:48:00.144 --> 48:03.064
Actually, I got orders in the

 00:48:03.064 --> 48:06.764
middle of my deployment to go as

 00:48:06.764 --> 48:09.364
a Navcat procurement officer at

 00:48:09.364 --> 48:11.504
Miami, Florida. Started on that

 00:48:11.504 --> 48:13.644
and got to the Philippines. We

 00:48:13.644 --> 48:15.844
were in China and went to the

 00:48:15.844 --> 48:18.624
Philippines and I got another

 00:48:18.624 --> 48:21.304
set of orders at Navcat

 00:48:21.304 --> 48:23.964
procurement officer, Akron, Ohio.

 00:48:24.454 --> 48:27.604
So by flying in a kind of a

 00:48:27.604 --> 48:30.204
borrowed DC-3, we finally got

 00:48:30.204 --> 48:32.704
back to the States, had some

 00:48:32.704 --> 48:34.724
farewell parties at our church

 00:48:34.724 --> 48:38.004
and had the movers at the house

 00:48:38.004 --> 48:39.964
packing, but nothing but nothing

 00:48:39.964 --> 48:42.224
in the van yet. When I get a

 00:48:42.224 --> 48:44.824
call from Washington, D. C.,

 00:48:44.824 --> 48:47.904
report tomorrow, ROP 05, for

 00:48:47.904 --> 48:49.684
briefings in connection with

 00:48:49.684 --> 48:51.504
exchange duty with the Air Force.

 00:48:52.254 --> 48:55.134
Okay. Oh, boy. So it happened.

 00:48:56.607 --> 48:59.357
One of my favorite assignments,

 00:48:59.357 --> 49:02.117
I was treated so royally, I was

 00:49:02.117 --> 49:04.737
the Air Force representative

 00:49:04.737 --> 49:08.737
with FAA in Los Angeles. I was

 00:49:08.737 --> 49:12.277
on, ended up on the colonel's

 00:49:12.277 --> 49:14.097
staff and then instructing in

 00:49:14.097 --> 49:17.737
the fighter weapons school and

 00:49:17.737 --> 49:20.257
kind of his favorite nation. I

 00:49:20.257 --> 49:23.657
was given command of an F-86H

 00:49:23.657 --> 49:26.117
squad, brand new. Another cool

 00:49:26.117 --> 49:26.357
jet. Goodness.

 00:49:30.150 --> 49:33.400
I am so jealous. Yeah. I know. I

 00:49:33.400 --> 49:35.240
was a Navy lieutenant and all

 00:49:35.240 --> 49:36.620
the other commanding officers

 00:49:36.620 --> 49:38.420
from majors and lieutenant

 00:49:38.420 --> 49:40.440
colonels. They could hardly wait

 00:49:40.440 --> 49:42.440
until I got out of there to pick

 00:49:42.440 --> 49:43.980
up some of the choice jobs that

 00:49:43.980 --> 49:47.120
I was holding. Okay. So Cougars,

 00:49:47.120 --> 49:50.040
F-86s, air exchange.

 00:49:50.040 --> 49:54.660
F-100. F-100. Okay. Can you list

 00:49:54.660 --> 49:56.020
the airplanes you haven't flown?

 00:49:56.030 --> 49:57.440
Maybe that is a short list.

 00:50:02.686 --> 50:03.086
Yeah.

 00:50:03.196 --> 50:08.986
GBM. Wow. So F-86s and F-100s

 00:50:08.986 --> 50:11.566
with the Air Force. Yes. And

 00:50:11.566 --> 50:15.632
then at some point you got in.

 00:50:15.632 --> 50:18.332
I returned to the Navy at El

 00:50:18.332 --> 50:19.992
Central, the fleet air gunnery

 00:50:19.992 --> 50:23.532
unit. And I was flying FJ-3s

 00:50:23.532 --> 50:26.272
very similar to an F-86. And I'm

 00:50:26.272 --> 50:28.552
getting a signal low battery.

 00:50:28.122 --> 50:29.512
Okay. We'll wrap this up pretty

 00:50:29.512 --> 50:30.632
quickly then. I do have one

 00:50:30.632 --> 50:31.712
quick question about the whole

 00:50:31.712 --> 50:34.112
Air Force Navy thing. That was

 00:50:34.112 --> 50:36.832
– so today there's a saying

 00:50:36.832 --> 50:38.512
that essentially is the Navy

 00:50:38.512 --> 50:40.532
rules don't say you can't do it,

 00:50:40.532 --> 50:42.012
then you can do it. And the Air

 00:50:42.012 --> 50:43.492
Force rules don't say you can do

 00:50:43.492 --> 50:45.152
it, then you can't do it. Was

 00:50:45.152 --> 50:47.312
that the case back then, or has

 00:50:47.312 --> 50:49.632
the Air Force changed since the

 00:50:49.632 --> 50:51.392
– I'm assuming the early 60s

 00:50:51.392 --> 50:53.972
when you were doing that? Oh,

 00:50:53.972 --> 50:57.192
goodness. Yeah. I learned Air

 00:50:57.192 --> 50:59.892
Force ways pretty well.

 00:51:00.182 --> 51:04.252
I wrote the air-to-ground manual,

 00:51:04.252 --> 51:05.512
which went along with boost,

 00:51:05.512 --> 51:07.952
blesse, no gusts, no glory,

 00:51:07.952 --> 51:11.175
air-to-air fighting. Cool. But

 00:51:11.908 --> 51:14.008
years – I'm skipping years

 00:51:14.008 --> 51:16.308
ahead, I'm commanding officers

 00:51:16.308 --> 51:18.108
of the Phantom Squadron. And

 00:51:18.108 --> 51:21.408
we're flying out of the String

 00:51:21.408 --> 51:24.468
of Islands out of – Oh, out of

 00:51:24.468 --> 51:26.368
the Keys, the Florida Keys, Key

 00:51:26.368 --> 51:30.048
West. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I'm

 00:51:30.048 --> 51:33.008
on a missile shoot, so I shoot,

 00:51:33.008 --> 51:35.188
I think, a Havar, and then I

 00:51:35.188 --> 51:36.658
shoot it down with the sidewind.

 00:51:37.868 --> 51:40.188
And I did that, but when it

 00:51:40.188 --> 51:42.208
exploded, I went into a big

 00:51:42.208 --> 51:44.048
victory roll. And on the top of

 00:51:44.048 --> 51:46.808
it, loud explosions,

 00:51:46.808 --> 51:48.388
everything's turning red and

 00:51:48.388 --> 51:51.909
blinking. I declared a mayday

 00:51:52.714 --> 51:56.574
and straightened out, pulled

 00:51:56.574 --> 51:58.534
back in the power, proceeded

 00:51:58.534 --> 52:00.774
back toward the base, lowering

 00:52:00.774 --> 52:03.965
and gliding to use air for

 00:52:03.965 --> 52:07.865
distance. Looked around and fire

 00:52:07.865 --> 52:08.455
both engines.

 00:52:11.705 --> 52:16.720
And so I'm mainly trying to get

 00:52:16.720 --> 52:19.900
back to the base, but I recall

 00:52:19.900 --> 52:23.180
that in short order recently,

 00:52:23.180 --> 52:26.200
that 16 situations like that

 00:52:26.200 --> 52:30.120
around the world, including Air

 00:52:30.120 --> 52:34.020
Force cars and Australians and

 00:52:34.020 --> 52:36.100
Belgians and whatnot, they were

 00:52:36.100 --> 52:39.156
flying the airplane, and they

 00:52:39.156 --> 52:41.436
all ejected. And I know in the

 00:52:41.436 --> 52:43.836
Air Force training, as they say,

 00:52:43.836 --> 52:46.396
in the event of that happening,

 00:52:46.396 --> 52:49.056
get up. Well, I've been told

 00:52:49.056 --> 52:51.356
that. And so I thought it's

 00:52:51.356 --> 52:52.756
still flying, and I stuck with

 00:52:52.756 --> 52:55.476
it. And as I got down to a lower

 00:52:55.476 --> 52:57.016
altitude and had to come up on

 00:52:57.016 --> 52:59.676
power, more power, more power,

 00:52:59.676 --> 53:01.916
and I had to go into afterburner

 00:53:01.916 --> 53:07.616
to keep it refending. And my RIO

 00:53:07.616 --> 53:09.536
ejected, and then I took it in

 00:53:09.536 --> 53:11.116
there, and it was a pretty

 00:53:11.116 --> 53:13.656
dangerous situation. I had both

 00:53:13.656 --> 53:15.556
engines on fire and afterburner

 00:53:15.556 --> 53:19.241
to land. But I did it until, for

 00:53:19.241 --> 53:21.561
the first time ever, they got an

 00:53:21.561 --> 53:23.941
airplane bad. Engineers

 00:53:23.941 --> 53:25.501
descended on it from all over

 00:53:25.501 --> 53:28.161
the world. And a month or so,

 00:53:28.161 --> 53:30.121
they had solved the problem. It

 00:53:30.121 --> 53:31.982
never happened again. Nice. Did

 00:53:33.236 --> 53:34.936
I hear you say your backseat are

 00:53:34.936 --> 53:37.716
ejected while you were flying it

 00:53:37.716 --> 53:40.016
back? He got a convertible ride.

 00:53:43.161 --> 53:45.471
Yeah, well, that itself was

 00:53:45.471 --> 53:47.691
interesting because there was a

 00:53:47.691 --> 53:49.851
helicopter coming from Air Force

 00:53:49.851 --> 53:54.921
Homestead to Key West. And he

 00:53:54.921 --> 54:03.291
said, F-4 on fire, we see your

 00:54:03.291 --> 54:05.061
RIO, we'll pick him up.

 00:54:06.078 --> 54:08.448
And he got back faster than I

 00:54:08.448 --> 54:11.708
did. There's a naval aviator

 00:54:11.708 --> 54:13.228
extraordinaire for you, Fig. It

 00:54:13.228 --> 54:14.828
was, quote, interesting. Yeah.

 00:54:15.528 --> 54:17.900
Unquote. Yeah, it was

 00:54:17.900 --> 54:20.840
interesting. You shouldn't get

 00:54:20.840 --> 54:22.040
so excited about it next time

 00:54:22.040 --> 54:24.980
you tell us that, sir. Talk

 00:54:24.980 --> 54:27.200
about understatement. Wow. Thank

 00:54:27.200 --> 54:28.980
you so much. Well, I've got one

 00:54:28.980 --> 54:31.320
other question. Of all the jobs

 00:54:31.320 --> 54:32.640
that you did, of all the flying

 00:54:32.640 --> 54:34.600
that you did, what was the best

 00:54:34.600 --> 54:36.440
job that you had in the Navy?

 00:54:37.630 --> 54:39.760
Well, my most important one, I

 00:54:39.760 --> 54:42.180
guess, was I was the first

 00:54:42.180 --> 54:44.056
Inspector General Sink Pack

 00:54:44.739 --> 54:45.389
under Admiral McCain.

 00:54:46.049 --> 54:47.999
Under Admiral McCain, you cut

 00:54:47.999 --> 54:49.009
out. You say Admiral McCain?

 00:54:49.884 --> 54:51.764
Yes. I served with all three of

 00:54:51.764 --> 54:55.064
the McCains. So they needed

 00:54:55.064 --> 54:56.804
somebody right now, and it was a

 00:54:56.804 --> 54:59.184
two-star job, but Captain

 00:54:59.184 --> 55:02.075
Williams was it. And so I wrote

 00:55:02.075 --> 55:05.416
the instructions and the plans

 00:55:05.416 --> 55:07.416
and made the first inspections

 00:55:07.416 --> 55:09.836
on four-star generals and so

 00:55:09.836 --> 55:12.056
forth. And then I got relieved

 00:55:12.056 --> 55:15.056
from the job by the most senior

 00:55:15.056 --> 55:16.556
Air Force two-star in the

 00:55:16.556 --> 55:19.136
Pacific. Okay. And it went up

 00:55:19.136 --> 55:21.205
another job. Wow.

 00:55:21.385 --> 55:23.831
So all the responsibility and

 00:55:23.831 --> 55:24.587
none of the pay.

 00:55:26.919 --> 55:29.339
That would be true. Yes. Wow.

 00:55:30.643 --> 55:34.053
This has been just an amazing

 00:55:34.053 --> 55:35.813
pleasure, Captain Williams,

 00:55:35.813 --> 55:38.473
hearing your stories. And I feel

 00:55:38.473 --> 55:40.113
like I'm in the presence of

 00:55:40.113 --> 55:43.186
royalty. And if I was there, I

 00:55:43.186 --> 55:44.236
would want to shake your hand.

 00:55:44.436 --> 55:45.746
And unfortunately, there's a

 00:55:45.746 --> 55:46.966
little bit of distance between

 00:55:46.966 --> 55:49.326
us. But thank you so much for

 00:55:49.326 --> 55:51.066
your service, first of all. I

 00:55:51.066 --> 55:53.266
aspired to be a Naval Aviator

 00:55:53.266 --> 55:55.706
extraordinaire, but I had no

 00:55:55.706 --> 55:58.406
idea that there was a giant

 00:55:58.406 --> 56:00.566
shadow cast by you. There was no

 00:56:00.566 --> 56:01.606
way I was ever going to get

 00:56:01.606 --> 56:01.776
there.

 00:56:02.316 --> 56:03.826
I understand you're a Marine,

 00:56:03.826 --> 56:03.996
right?

 00:56:04.646 --> 56:06.986
Yes, sir. Both Repeat and I were

 00:56:06.986 --> 56:08.016
squadron mates together.

 00:56:07.806 --> 56:11.266
We flew the Aviator B, B-model

 00:56:11.266 --> 56:17.302
Harrier. Yeah. I was a Naval

 00:56:17.302 --> 56:21.032
Aviator Marine. And his final

 00:56:21.032 --> 56:22.732
assignment was on Edmund

 00:56:22.732 --> 56:24.652
McCain's staff as a colonel. And

 00:56:24.652 --> 56:27.092
I came aboard as his numerical

 00:56:27.092 --> 56:28.272
relief for the Navy Department.

 00:56:29.032 --> 56:30.562
And he retired the next day.

 00:56:30.572 --> 56:31.542
Okay. I'm sorry.

 00:56:31.512 --> 56:33.412
We got all of that except who it

 00:56:33.412 --> 56:34.732
was. You broke up when you

 00:56:34.732 --> 56:36.152
stated who was a Naval Aviator

 00:56:36.152 --> 56:36.322
Marine.

 00:56:38.596 --> 56:39.606
Your brother. Oh, your brother.

 00:56:39.206 --> 56:39.956
My brother. Okay.

 00:56:39.976 --> 56:42.398
Oh, your brother. The same

 00:56:42.398 --> 56:44.198
brother that checked you out in

 00:56:44.198 --> 56:45.798
the Corsair? Exactly.

 00:56:48.858 --> 56:50.338
How awesome is that? That's

 00:56:50.338 --> 56:51.678
awesome. Is he still with us?

 00:56:52.746 --> 56:55.676
Oh, he died on, yeah. Fourth of

 00:56:55.676 --> 56:56.756
July, two years ago.

 00:56:57.316 --> 56:58.596
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What

 00:56:58.596 --> 56:59.236
was his name, sir?

 00:57:01.083 --> 57:03.613
Ninety-eight. He wasn't a young

 00:57:03.613 --> 57:07.399
fellow. What was his name? He

 00:57:07.399 --> 57:08.499
wasn't a young fellow.

 00:57:10.224 --> 57:12.044
Lynn. Lynn Williams. They want

 00:57:12.044 --> 57:13.664
to know his name. Yeah, Lynn.

 00:57:13.664 --> 57:15.984
Awesome. Well, and thank you to

 00:57:15.984 --> 57:17.154
your brother for his service.

 00:57:17.664 --> 57:19.384
You have a family with a

 00:57:19.384 --> 57:20.524
tradition of service and

 00:57:20.524 --> 57:22.904
sacrifice. And I am so grateful,

 00:57:22.904 --> 57:24.304
not only for your service, but

 00:57:24.304 --> 57:26.024
for your time that you have

 00:57:26.024 --> 57:27.164
honored us with your presence.

 00:57:27.800 --> 57:29.400
Well, I appreciate it. Thank you.

 00:57:30.280 --> 57:31.480
We're humbled that you're here

 00:57:31.480 --> 57:33.660
with us. And I hope the campaign

 00:57:33.660 --> 57:36.680
is successful. I believe fully

 00:57:36.680 --> 57:38.020
in my heart that you are worthy

 00:57:38.020 --> 57:39.460
of the Medal of Honor, sir. And

 00:57:39.460 --> 57:41.460
I hope that they come to their

 00:57:41.460 --> 57:44.360
senses and award that to you, as

 00:57:44.360 --> 57:46.280
it should have been done 70

 00:57:46.280 --> 57:46.610
years ago.

 00:57:48.763 --> 57:51.259
Right. Thanks, sir.

 00:57:51.279 --> 57:54.569
What a true honor it has been,

 00:57:54.569 --> 57:55.569
talking with you personally.

 00:57:55.689 --> 57:57.389
Thank you for your time.

 00:57:57.039 --> 57:58.909
Well, it was enjoyable.

 00:57:59.149 --> 58:03.689
Thank you. I just feel like

 00:58:03.689 --> 58:06.049
we've got about six months worth

 00:58:06.049 --> 58:07.609
of stories to pry out of you,

 00:58:07.609 --> 58:09.369
but that's not going to happen

 00:58:09.369 --> 58:09.809
today.

 00:58:09.399 --> 58:10.829
If you're willing to come back

 00:58:10.829 --> 58:11.929
sometime, we would love to have

 00:58:11.929 --> 58:12.309
you back.

 00:58:13.028 --> 58:15.018
Well, there are other stories.

 00:58:15.998 --> 58:17.738
Oh, we've got to get them. I

 00:58:17.738 --> 58:19.858
know. Oh, my gosh. You know,

 00:58:19.858 --> 58:21.018
this is just the tip of the

 00:58:21.018 --> 58:22.258
iceberg. I can't wait to hear

 00:58:22.258 --> 58:23.818
the Phantom and the A4. Well,

 00:58:23.818 --> 58:25.358
the fact that he talked about

 00:58:25.358 --> 58:27.518
being on fire in an F4 and his

 00:58:27.518 --> 58:29.478
Rio jumped out like he was

 00:58:29.478 --> 58:30.578
standing on the corner waiting

 00:58:30.578 --> 58:32.298
for a taxi cab to go by.

 00:58:34.768 --> 58:37.498
That was an interesting day. Oh,

 00:58:37.498 --> 58:40.060
my goodness. All right. Well,

 00:58:40.060 --> 58:41.300
sir, we know you've got a low

 00:58:41.300 --> 58:42.860
battery, so we'll let you go.

 00:58:42.870 --> 58:44.780
We'll do away with most of the

 00:58:44.780 --> 58:45.990
formalities that we usually do.

 00:58:46.410 --> 58:47.680
I'll show announcements and that

 00:58:47.680 --> 58:49.520
kind of stuff. And just say

 00:58:49.520 --> 58:51.640
thank you and God bless you. And

 00:58:51.640 --> 58:52.580
please, if you're willing to

 00:58:52.580 --> 58:53.740
come back, we would love to have

 00:58:53.740 --> 58:56.190
you. It would be a joy.

 00:58:56.190 --> 58:57.660
Very well. God bless you. Well,

 00:58:57.660 --> 58:58.600
we're going to take you up on

 00:58:58.600 --> 58:59.930
that, sir. Thank you so much.

 00:59:00.588 --> 59:03.040
All right. I'll have a list of

 00:59:03.040 --> 59:04.195
questions. Good.

 00:59:04.195 --> 59:06.465
I just want to thank you both as

 00:59:06.465 --> 59:08.365
well, and I'll be in touch with

 00:59:08.365 --> 59:11.785
you. And I really appreciate you

 00:59:11.785 --> 59:13.405
spending the time with Captain

 00:59:13.405 --> 59:13.825
Williams today.

 00:59:13.905 --> 59:15.885
It was all our honor. All our

 00:59:15.885 --> 59:17.115
honor and privilege. Yes.

 00:59:17.535 --> 59:19.362
Absolutely. Well, we're going to

 00:59:19.362 --> 59:20.442
need your, you're going to need

 00:59:20.442 --> 59:21.312
your support.

 00:59:21.322 --> 59:22.612
Why don't you like to see you?

 00:59:24.252 --> 59:28.062
Thank you for helping today.

 00:59:28.742 --> 59:31.062
Thank you. We still have work

 00:59:31.062 --> 59:32.882
cut out on this medal of honor,

 00:59:32.882 --> 59:36.982
and we're not giving up. So I'll

 00:59:36.982 --> 59:38.442
look forward for your support

 00:59:38.442 --> 59:39.942
for that. Whatever we can do.

 00:59:39.952 --> 59:43.222
We can help. Anything we can do,

 00:59:43.222 --> 59:45.462
we'll do it. Absolutely. We have

 00:59:45.462 --> 59:47.542
a good, well, we have a pretty

 00:59:47.542 --> 59:49.632
good following so far. And we'll

 00:59:49.632 --> 59:50.122
just keep spreading that. We'll

 00:59:50.122 --> 59:50.292
be waiting for our list of

 00:59:50.292 --> 59:50.352
people listening.

 00:59:50.672 --> 59:50.922
We'll be waiting for people to

 00:59:50.922 --> 59:51.942
have any people that can make

 00:59:51.942 --> 59:55.057
this happen. Get busy. Get busy.

 00:59:56.167 --> 59:59.022
Contact your senators. The

59:59.022 --> 01:00:00.542
Congress, the House has already

01:00:00.542 --> 01:00:00.902
approved it.

01:00:01.752 --> 01:00:05.552
Be well. God bless. Semper Fi.

01:00:06.898 --> 01:00:08.278
Semper Fi. Thank you, sir.

01:00:10.824 --> 01:00:12.214
Well, Captain Williams, thank

01:00:12.214 --> 01:00:13.894
you so much for your time with

01:00:13.894 --> 01:00:16.254
Fig and me today. We are deeply

01:00:16.254 --> 01:00:17.574
honored that you spent time with

01:00:17.574 --> 01:00:18.854
us. And we look so much forward

01:00:18.854 --> 01:00:20.214
to having you back and hearing

01:00:20.214 --> 01:00:22.574
more of these stories that were,

01:00:22.574 --> 01:00:23.774
as you put them, interesting.

01:00:25.612 --> 01:00:27.742
Right? Oh, my gosh. Right? Our

01:00:27.742 --> 01:00:29.762
gratitude also goes out to Dave

01:00:29.762 --> 01:00:30.762
Hamilton over at the Mac Geek

01:00:30.762 --> 01:00:33.643
Gap. Folks, here's some of the

01:00:33.643 --> 01:00:34.543
feedback that I get over and

01:00:34.543 --> 01:00:36.563
over again. Please go to our

01:00:36.563 --> 01:00:38.223
website, sothereiwas. us. We

01:00:38.223 --> 01:00:40.403
have a glossary page there. Go

01:00:40.403 --> 01:00:41.543
look up all these terms. We know

01:00:41.543 --> 01:00:42.663
there's a lot of terms that you

01:00:42.663 --> 01:00:43.863
get hit with during the show,

01:00:43.863 --> 01:00:45.403
and it's hard to listen to if

01:00:45.403 --> 01:00:46.103
you don't know what they are.

01:00:46.143 --> 01:00:48.083
But if you'll go to our page,

01:00:48.083 --> 01:00:49.443
glossary page there on

01:00:49.443 --> 01:00:51.643
sothereiwas. us. If you don't

01:00:51.643 --> 01:00:52.943
see what you're looking for,

01:00:52.943 --> 01:00:54.923
shoot us an email. Repeat at

01:00:54.923 --> 01:00:57.483
sothereiwas. us or Fig at

01:00:57.483 --> 01:00:59.983
sothereiwas. us. And ask us to

01:00:59.983 --> 01:01:01.263
get it up on the page. Ask us

01:01:01.263 --> 01:01:02.203
what it is. We've had a few

01:01:02.203 --> 01:01:03.063
emails like that, and we've got

01:01:03.063 --> 01:01:04.343
them up on the glossary page.

01:01:05.336 --> 01:01:06.726
Thanks also to our sponsor,

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01:01:08.286 --> 01:01:09.786
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she'll take care of you. I have

01:01:20.059 --> 01:01:22.972
some, and they're amazing. The

01:01:22.972 --> 01:01:24.612
lawman got some with the Blue

01:01:24.612 --> 01:01:28.272
Angels. Yeah. Yeah. It looked

01:01:28.272 --> 01:01:29.452
like they were flying beer can

01:01:29.452 --> 01:01:30.662
formations. We're getting closer.

01:01:30.682 --> 01:01:32.459
They were beer can with, right?

01:01:33.591 --> 01:01:36.301
What? I saw 65? Are we up to 65

01:01:36.321 --> 01:01:38.241
We need 35 more of you. Get off

01:01:38.241 --> 01:01:41.421
your backsides right now. Go to

01:01:41.421 --> 01:01:43.741
sothereiwas. us slash rumble.

01:01:43.751 --> 01:01:45.601
And please sign up and follow us

01:01:45.601 --> 01:01:47.781
so we don't have to pay. It's

01:01:47.781 --> 01:01:49.581
free. Doesn't cost you anything.

01:01:49.571 --> 01:01:51.141
You'll get a note. And once we

01:01:51.141 --> 01:01:53.161
get 100, we won't have to pay

01:01:53.161 --> 01:01:54.621
anything to be on rumble. And I

01:01:54.621 --> 01:01:55.641
think you can unsubscribe to

01:01:55.641 --> 01:01:56.621
them if you want to, but you

01:01:56.621 --> 01:01:57.861
would get emails saying, hey,

01:01:57.861 --> 01:01:59.874
they're recording today. Thank

01:01:59.874 --> 01:02:01.454
you to everybody who has been

01:02:01.454 --> 01:02:02.994
sharing this show. Share, share,

01:02:02.994 --> 01:02:04.434
share, share, share. Keep

01:02:04.434 --> 01:02:06.074
sharing it. Our audience is

01:02:06.074 --> 01:02:06.994
growing exponentially.

01:02:07.304 --> 01:02:08.734
You know, I've gotten feedback

01:02:08.734 --> 01:02:12.448
too from friends that are not in

01:02:12.448 --> 01:02:13.848
the aviation business and they

01:02:14.608 --> 01:02:17.028
are in love with this show just

01:02:17.028 --> 01:02:17.878
because it's something different.

01:02:17.898 --> 01:02:19.358
You know, we don't talk politics.

01:02:20.128 --> 01:02:21.788
It's a chance to get away from

01:02:21.788 --> 01:02:23.148
the crazy out there in the world

01:02:23.148 --> 01:02:24.578
and just listen to good stories.

01:02:24.868 --> 01:02:26.288
Listen to the crazy that is

01:02:26.288 --> 01:02:28.848
aviation. Yes. So if you know

01:02:28.848 --> 01:02:30.028
people that just like a good

01:02:30.028 --> 01:02:31.628
story, you don't have to be a

01:02:31.628 --> 01:02:32.758
pilot to enjoy this show.

01:02:32.778 --> 01:02:34.888
Keep sharing it. And lastly,

01:02:34.888 --> 01:02:36.208
thanks to our friends, the Dos

01:02:36.208 --> 01:02:37.668
Gringos, the two men who give

01:02:37.668 --> 01:02:39.038
the Air Force a great name,

01:02:39.858 --> 01:02:41.368
great music that brings us in

01:02:41.368 --> 01:02:42.868
and brings us out every week.

01:02:43.348 --> 01:02:45.368
We're so appreciative. And

01:02:45.368 --> 01:02:46.368
hopefully they'll come back soon

01:02:46.368 --> 01:02:47.488
and chat a little more about

01:02:47.488 --> 01:02:50.048
some of their next things in the

01:02:50.048 --> 01:02:51.688
airplanes. I'd like that one. So

01:02:51.688 --> 01:02:53.648
BUL, everybody. Until next week,

01:02:53.648 --> 01:02:55.798
stay safe and check six.

01:03:22.720 --> 01:03:24.340
Another MiG came round and

01:03:24.340 --> 01:03:25.500
Williams managed to get his

01:03:25.500 --> 01:03:27.840
sights on him and fired. The MiG

01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:29.820
blew up, Williams narrowly

01:03:29.820 --> 01:03:31.140
avoiding the massive fireball.

01:03:31.750 --> 01:03:33.220
When he looked back and saw

01:03:33.220 --> 01:03:34.750
another Soviet plane coming in,

01:03:35.310 --> 01:03:37.580
he wove and jigged to foul the

01:03:37.580 --> 01:03:39.460
Soviet's aim, but a burst of

01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:41.460
fire found the Panther hitting a

01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:43.100
wing and the engine. He managed

01:03:43.100 --> 01:03:45.660
to pull up hard. Cannon shells

01:03:45.660 --> 01:03:47.200
roaring past his canopy as he

01:03:47.200 --> 01:03:49.400
did so and dived into cloud

01:03:49.400 --> 01:03:51.540
cover. He performed an extremely

01:03:51.540 --> 01:03:52.670
hazardous carrier landing.

01:03:53.450 --> 01:03:55.300
Lieutenant Williams is credited

01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:57.480
with four Soviet MiG-15 kills.

01:03:58.460 --> 01:04:00.790
After the Cold War ended in 1991,

01:04:01.450 --> 01:04:02.980
the Russian government confirmed

01:04:02.980 --> 01:04:04.800
that Williams had down four of

01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:06.900
their pilots, including their

01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:07.170
names.